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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: lesleyhannah on Monday 08 February 16 18:06 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone know where we could find out whether an uncle who died in Bantry Bay in 2003 left a will - or how to order it.
Thanks for any help which will be very gratefully received.
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try here
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/genealogy1/genealogy-records/wills-testamentary-records/
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Thank you for your help dathai. Unfortunately the Archives doesn't hold wills less than 20 years old. I'm not sure whether this is only in Ireland or whether it's the same in the UK too. Has anyone managed to obtain recent wills from Ireland? We're hoping this might throw a light on the uncle's family, about whom we know nothing at all.
Thanks again.
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Hello,
I am sure you have done this but sometimes just searching with the person's name and residence place will bring up death notices or anniversary notices. Do you know if he had a family?
Heywood
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The Will would be at Probate Office in Cork and declaration of who got what!!
http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/D6536B4B00396842802575AF003E0ECC?opendocument&l=en
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Thank you both for your help. I have just emailed the probate office Hallmark suggested, and will let you know the result. Heywood - he was an only child, whose parents are deceased. I'm trying to help my son-in-law, his nephew, who lost touch with his uncle many years ago. We suspect this uncle may have had a family in Ireland. We're still trying to get his death cert - looking for a possible will might give clues.
Thanks again
Lesley
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I hope you are successful.
I looked for the man named in an earlier thread and tried my tips myself and got nowhere! Just a death January 2003. Is that him?
Heywood
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Yes, that's uncle Tommy! Amazing how we can find wills and trace deaths of ancestors from hundreds of years ago yet tracing relatives we actually met can be almost impossible! I will let you know if we have any luck with this search
Best wishes
Lesley
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Thanks! That would be interesting. :)
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Yes, that's uncle Tommy! Amazing how we can find wills and trace deaths of ancestors from hundreds of years ago yet tracing relatives we actually met can be almost impossible! I will let you know if we have any luck with this search
Best wishes
Lesley
No it's not... when my father died and probate was finished it had to be recorded. Why should anyone have free access to it online??
Yes they can check Probate Office if they want.... but will they go to the trouble?
Same with Court cases, one can go and look at what someone was awarded, but not freely accessible online!
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I see your point. In our case we're not interested in what he left - we'd just like to know what happened to him and whether he had another family. They might be as pleased to know about their English relatives as my son-in-law would be to know them! A death certificate would have answered some of the questions. We've applied for one but don't know whether we'll be successful. The advantage of wills is that people almost always name their partner/children. So fingers crossed!
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So... what was the name of person??
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This is where I got the information from.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734667.0
However, there it mentions the Navy and a December 2003 death, where by browsing, a death in January 2003 and a connection to films was mentioned. ???
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OK thanks! Which Navy? Russian? American? Irish?... etc, probably some Military site?? The funeral might not have been in Ireland either.
Searched rip.ie etc, nothing!
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Jan 2003 is correct - as is the film industry connection. My son-in-law thinks he did serve in the navy (in the war perhaps?) but I've thought since that the reference to the crew could have referred to a film crew - he did very small parts but also props. We've found a number of references to him online in the film parts
Because he died relatively recently and because we don't know whether he did leave a family I don't want to put his name in the public domain, but I'll send you a personal message with it. It's a family mystery how this uncle just disappeared for many years and for some reason no-one in the family seems to know what happened to him. It's one of those unsolved mysteries that I guess we all have in our trees. So hopefully if we can get either a death cert or a will, we'll be able to get a bit closer to the truth!
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http://www.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2bc01a0a34
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He worked as these on various films... just because he died in Bantry doesn't mean his Will is there!!
1986 Castaway Dressing Props
1983 Party Party Property Master
1982 The Draughtsman's Contract Props
1981 The Appointment Property Master
1978 Murder by Decree Charge Hand Props
1976 The Man Who Fell to Earth Property Master
1974 Paper Tiger Property Master
1974 Monty Python and the Holy Grail Property Master
1973 A Doll's House With [Props]
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If the situation in Ireland is the same as England and Wales, only approx 1/3 of people make a will, meaning the majority 2/3 do not.
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My hope is that even if he didn't leave a will, there will be something called a grant (I think that's the word) which will indicate who the estate was left to - this happened in the case of one of my relatives, which enabled us to make contact. If the uncle concerned was married it could name his wife which may be enough for us to contact her (if she wished to of course). A faint hope, I know, but worth trying.
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Surely you'd be better first getting the death certificate to see his marital status (married, single, widowed or divorced)? and was he actually resident in Cork/Ireland when he died?
The death certificate would give you an exact date and with that you might be able to get an obituary from a local library.
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We have applied for one but it's taken a long time to find out where to apply. We were given several addresses but so far without success. We are at present waiting to see whether the online application gives a result. The will is a 'belt and braces' attempt - hopefully one of them will give a result. It's possible that despite living in Bantry Bay the actual death took place in another part of Ireland - we don't know the circumstances so we're basing a lot on hearsay - and I'm not familiar with Irish registration procedures. I have been impressed with the speedy replies to my queries from the various agencies in Ireland.
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It sounded from what you'd posted that he died in Bantry Bay. If he was merely in Ireland when he died then I think the Will (if any) couldn't be administered here in Ireland so you'll also need to know where he did live.
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We believe he lived in Bantry Bay for some time before his death. This is confirmed by some info we found online. I'm just trying to imagine different possibilities - eg a relative of mine lived all her life in Hull but died whilst staying for a while with her sister in Nottingham (something I didn't know). It took ages to find her death cert because it had been registered in Nottingham and she had a very common surname so I'd assumed the Notts deaths were not her). This uncle probably did die in Bantry Bay - but I'm keeping all options open just in case we can't find the death cert there!
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http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/images/content/GRO_Documents/Form_for_DAHG_site.pdf
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As promised, I'm letting you know about the reply I've received from Cork Probate Office.
They say that before a Will becomes a document of public record, a Grant of Probate has to be issued. If we don't have the date the Grant of Probate was issued we would have to pay for a search of their records. In order to carry out this search they require the name, address and date of death of the Deceased. If a Grant has been issued we would then have to order the will, the cost of which would be given with the search. They do not have an online credit card facility.
We don't have some of the information above (and don't have the date probate was granted) so we're closing this line of enquiry - it sounds like it could be quite an expensive route and still not yield any results. We're now pinning our hopes on getting the death certificate, and will let you know if we're successful. Hopefully the information will help others searching for wills in Ireland.
Thanks to everyone who helped
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Thanks for the update.
All good wishes for the death certificate.
You could also try local newspapers to see if there is a mention of the death.
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Thanks for the update.
All good wishes for the death certificate.
You could also try local newspapers to see if there is a mention of the death.
..and his Will might not have been in Ireland!
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We received the death certificate yesterday. It shows the uncle died aged 79 and was single. So one question answered. However we believe the estate was left to someone in Bantry bay (maybe a common-law wife, so there could still be children). The informant on the death certificate was a member of the hospital staff, giving the hospital as her address - and the death was registered over a week after the uncle died. We made a phone call to Cork register office, and had a conversation with a very helpful member of staff, who is searching for any record of a will, which means we may get some answers to the mystery of the disappearing relative! Will let you know as soon as we hear. Thanks again for all your help.
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Thanks for the update.
I have little knowledge of such things but perhaps there was a Post Mortem given the delay re death certificate. Usually Irish funerals are quite soon after death.
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I did wonder about a post-mortem. Like you, I've no experience with Irish records but English death certs in my family tree always refer to the coroner on the death certificate. This certificate doesn't mention a pm. Also the list of causes of death, and the length of time the uncle had suffered from them, plus his age, make a post-mortem unlikely. But like you I thought more than a week between death and registration (and that taking place in the hospital) seems a bit odd. My personal experience of deaths in hospital/hospice is that they move the body very quickly. It's amazing what you discover when you start trying to uncover family mysteries!
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"...The informant on the death certificate was a member of the hospital staff, giving the hospital as her address - and the death was registered over a week after the uncle died...."
Registered by whom??
The informant on the death certificate was a MEDICAL member of the hospital staff... as it should be!
Died of what?
Why do you think there was a Post-Mortem?
Nothing unusual about registering a Death at Registry Office a week later? What difference does it make?
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Hallmark,
I was just remarking on the delay. In my personal experience of family deaths in Ireland there is a much shorter interval between death and burial/cremation than in England.
I speculated whether there was a PM again because of what I interpreted as a delay.
I was also assuming that the certificate and registration would be the same informant- maybe not then.
Perhaps there was a search for relatives?
Heywood
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Hi - The causes of death would have been filled in by a hospital doctor. The 'informant' is the person who goes to the register office to register the death. As well as giving his or her name, their relationship to the deceased and their own private residential address is given. I've registered a few deaths of family members and my name, address and relationship shows in the informant part of their death certificates. Sometimes it's the name and address of a neighbour or family friend in that section. We thought/guessed if the uncle had a wife or partner then she would likely be the informant registering the death. Without having any experience of Irish procedure I also felt that it was unusual for a hospital member of staff (not a doctor according to the name) to be responsible for registering the death a week later when the hospital is usually no longer involved. However as you can see, we've been applying the English procedures to the process, and we could be very mistaken. But I'm very grateful for all your help, and will let you know how things turn out.
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It's the same procedure in Ireland as in England as far as I know. The informant (relative, person present at death or medical staff) gives the information as they know it (in this case possibly from hospital admission files). It may be that someone from the hospital registered deaths once a week.
Have you tried contacting local undertakers?
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Hallmark,
I was just remarking on the delay. In my personal experience of family deaths in Ireland there is a much shorter interval between death and burial/cremation than in England.
I speculated whether there was a PM again because of what I interpreted as a delay.
I was also assuming that the certificate and registration would be the same informant- maybe not then.
Perhaps there was a search for relatives?
Heywood
Yes it is shorter but a Doctor has to sign the Death Cert... the Death doesn't have to be recorded in the Registry Office immediately, and can be after the Funeral. I'm the informant of my mother's Death Cert issued to me... registered by my brother at Reg Office days later.
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Thanks for that.
I really thought that in England you can't have a burial/cremation without the issue of a death certificate and then, as I wrote, my experience of Irish deaths and funerals being close together.
In this case, I was thinking there may have been a delay for some reason.
I had wondered if local undertakers or cemeteries may be able to help but there may be data protection there.
It seems odd that there was no announcement in the local papers but then again, that practice is going less now.
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Yes you need a Death Cert, but that has nothing to do with when one goes to Registry Office, a Death Cert from Doctor is what is used.
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I think there's some confusion here between a death certificate (what a registrar issues) and the death notification form (which a doctor issues)-
www.hse.ie/go/registeradeath/
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A person can be buried prior to a Death being registered so the Funeral could have been 2 days after Death and not registered for a few days after.
My name is on the Doctor's Form, but not on Registry Form..
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I easily get confused ;) apologies.
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No problem, it can be very confusing.
Certainly for one with no next of kin etc....
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If the E&W cororner is involved, the death can be registered months or years after the funeral.
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I think there's some confusion here between a death certificate (what a registrar issues) and the death notification form (which a doctor issues)-
www.hse.ie/go/registeradeath/
Yes, I think this may be my fault. The certificate we sent for and the one I'm talking about is the death certificate issued by the registrar, and which contains the name of the person who is at the office registering the death. As this is often the next of kin we thought this certificate could show whether the uncle had a partner. I remember now that when we went to register my mother's death we did have to take a death notification form to give to the registrar (and which was signed by the doctor). Sorry if I caused any confusion.
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I think there's some confusion here between a death certificate (what a registrar issues) and the death notification form (which a doctor issues)-
www.hse.ie/go/registeradeath/
Yes, I think this may be my fault. The certificate we sent for and the one I'm talking about is the death certificate issued by the registrar, and which contains the name of the person who is at the office registering the death. As this is often the next of kin we thought this certificate could show whether the uncle had a partner. I remember now that when we went to register my mother's death we did have to take a death notification form to give to the registrar (and which was signed by the doctor). Sorry if I caused any confusion.
"...The informant on the death certificate was a member of the hospital staff, giving the hospital as her address - and the death was registered over a week after the uncle died....."
"... I'm talking about is the death certificate issued by the registrar, and which contains the name of the person who is at the office registering the death....."
So, someone from the Hospital went to Reg. Office...? Not uncommon if he had no next of kin.
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I easily get confused ;) apologies.
You aren't at fault at all.
I wasn't confused between the doctor's form and the death certificate.
I understood that you were quoting from the death certificate and not the doctor's death notification.
I was linking the death certificate to the Burial/Cremation form which gives permission for the funeral. This was based on my experience.
This was also perhaps an error on my part as I then related it also to my experience of Irish deaths and funerals re the time factor.
Let's hope you find out what happened.
Heywood :)
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Just checked at local Reg Office when passing... If a person with no next of kin dies the Doctor does the paperwork and the Hospital registers the Death.
As to who pays for Funeral, she did not know but is reasonably confident the Local Health Board does!
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Thanks Heywood. Something I've not come across before. He definitely had family (even if not his own kids) and probably enough money to pay for a funeral but presumably if no-one collects the body from the hospital it falls to the staff there? The family in England were sure there was a 'significant other' in his life, so the mystery continues - will let you know if we receive the will, and if it provides any answers. And thanks again.
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Thanks Hallmark - your message came just as I'd sent my last one. It does seem like the uncle died alone which isn't what the family had imagined. I've been responsible for registering a few deaths in my family but had never given any thought to what happens if there are next of kin who don't know a relative has died.
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Well if he did and there was no next of kin to be found to bury him there might also be an estate left behind.. did he make a Will?? or not??
IF the hospital registered the death they would be the ones to contact.
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We're waiting to hear the result of our application for a will - it's been a bit more complicated than in my experience of English wills. This search started with my relative (in-law, not my blood family) saying he'd always wondered what happened to the favourite uncle he remembered as a child. After years of tracing my own ancestors I said it would be relatively easy to find out . . .
Well, I've certainly learnt quite a lot, and am grateful for the help you've all given me. The nephew concerned has been in touch with Cork register office (I think) who are looking to see if there was a will - and I'll let you know the result, whatever it is.
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I doubt the hospital would provide any further details. If there were no relatives then details for death certificate would likely have come from hospital admission records and such records are not open to the public.