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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: Peffness on Sunday 14 February 16 15:15 GMT (UK)
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Hi Rootschatters,
I'm getting really stuck on finding out about my great-great-grandfather George Herbert "Topper" Brown. I can't pin down his birth, death, or details about his parents.
I'll talk through what I have so far and hopefully a fresh pair of eyes can help!
Birth
I haven't been able to track this down.
If his marriage certificate is correct, he would have been born about 1897.
I don't know his mother's name, however on his marriage certificate his father is listed as Leister Brown, a carpenter.
(His father may also have been in the Navy, but this is family legend and I don't have any proof)
My grandparents say George was "a Kentishman" but I don't know if he was born in the county or moved there later.
1901 census
He would have been around 4, but I've drawn a blank as I don't know his parents' names/can't say for sure where they were living.
1911 census
He would have been around 14, but I've drawn a blank as I don't know his parents' names/can't say for sure where they were living.
(I haven't yet turned up a record of a Leister or Lester Brown and George in the same household on the 1901 or 1911 censuses).
Marriage Certificate - 26 Aug 1916
George Herbert Brown married Adelaide Rebecca Richards in the Parish Church of St Mary the Virgin, Chatham.
He was 19, putting his birth about 1897.
This is where his father is listed as Leister Brown, a carpenter.
George's residence is "Royal Naval Barracks" and his occupation is "Stoker, Royal Navy."
WWI
There is a family story that his ship was sunk and he was rescued from a raft, but I don't know where that was.
The National Archives has a few George Browns listed in the Navy, so I'm not sure where to go with it.
The family story also goes that he was in Ireland during the Easter Uprising (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Rising).
First son born - 20 November 1918
My great-grandfather Cyril Brown was born 20 November 1918.
Cyril's place of birth was 29 Back Brook, Chatham, which is recorded as the residence of George's wife Adelaide.
George's occupation is listed as "Stoker Royal Navy (Baker journeyman)."
Forgive my ignorance, but is that a naval term or was he actually working as a baker at the same time as being a stoker in the Navy? And would he have been living with Adelaide or would he still be in the barracks?
First daughter born - 1919
George & Adelaide's first daughter was born around 1919. She was known as Doll, so her full name was probably Dorothy. It turns out the birth record I had was for a different Dorothy Brown, so right now I'm not 100% on when and where she was born. Dorothy/Doll may even be her middle name.
Second son born - 21 June 1920
George Herbert Brown Junior was born 21 June 1920 at 140 Charter Street, Chatham. (Again this place of birth is also recorded as the residence of George's wife Adelaide).
George's occupation is listed as "Labourer at aeroplane works."
This is interesting! What "aeroplane works" is this likely to be? Could there be a record of him leaving the Navy between 1918-1920?
Third son born - 27 December 1921
Percy L Brown's birth was registered in Medway but I don't have a copy of his birth certificate.
Second daughter born - 19 May 1932
Vera Brown was born at 123 Brook, Chatham. George's occupation is listed as "general labourer" on her birth certificate.
Family story says that he worked as a builder. From what I've read, The Brook (http://www.medwaymemories.co.uk/?page_id=150) was a pretty rough area in the 1930s, which suggests the family weren't well off.
Fourth Son born - 8 December 1934
Ronald Brown was born at 123 Brook, Chatham.
Again, this is the residence of Adelaide.
Again, George's occupation is given as "General labourer".
The Family Move to Battersea - bef 1939
At some point after the birth of Ronald in Chatham, Adelaide and the children move to Battersea.
I'd assume George went with them!
Marriage of eldest son - 5 August 1939
George and Adelaide's eldest son, Cyril, gets married to Jessica Norah Cox. Those are my great-grandparents. (He's 20 years old, she's 17 and pregnant... Uh oh).
George's occupation is listed as "drainage contractors foreman" on the marriage certificate.
Cyril's residence is given as 423a Battersea Park Road, Battersea. I know this is where Adelaide and the other siblings are living because...
1939 Register
I unlocked the entry for 423A Battersea Park Road, Battersea, convinced that I would at last find George Herbert Brown's birth date... But, alas!
Adelaide Rebecca Brown is listed first.
Then Percy L Brown, working as a builder's labourer. He would have been 17.
Then three rows are blanked out. I think these must be the youngest three children - George, Vera and Ronald. (Doll was about 20 so might have married and moved out at this point).
I can't find George Herbert Brown senior.
Death
This is a mystery to me as well. My grandparents said it would have been in the fifties, but have been no more specific than that!
Finally, I've attached a picture. This is the only photo of George Herbert "Topper" Brown that I have.
Thanks for reading all that and any help would be appreciated!
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There is this death?
June qtr 1971
Grimsby Registration District vol 3b, page 460
Brown, George Herbert age 74 born 30 April 1897
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There's a Royal Navy record for a stoker named George Herbert Brown, born Sheffield, 14 February 1897 (Valentine's Day - like today !). Joined up on 20 June 1916. He was based in Chatham (Pembroke 2) until September 1916.
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That George Brown can be found on the 1911 census at the Philanthropic Society's Farm School in Reigate! ;D
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On FreeBMD there is a George Herbert Brown born Sept qtr 1899 Lewisham 1d 1196. You could send for this to see if his father was Lester/Leister Brown.
regards.
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There are Army records for what looks like could be the same person - born in Sheffield.
He was a baker on the Army records but was discharged in 1913. He was living at The Farm School, Redhill
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Doesn't fit with dad :-\
1901 4345/6/3
George W Brown 31 yrs Journeyman Baker
Allice C Brown 27 yrs
George H Brown 4 yrs b Crooke, Sheffield
Ivy M E Brown 1 yr
This could be George Harry Brown who was in the Navy from 1919
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It is quite possible that George H Brown was still in the Navy for WW2 in which case you won't find him on the 1939 register. Just noticed that you have a marriage in 1939 giving him a different occupation
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A possible death
Sep qtr 1966
George H BROWN age 70
CHATHAM reg district 5F 169
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This may not be your George but there is a report in the Kent & Sussex Courier 29 Jun 1934 of a George Herbert Brown , 38 , a ganger of Chatham , being sentenced to 3 years penal servitude following a robbery. Looking at your picture it's a bit difficult to reconcile the two !
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Hi,
Who are the witnesses on the marriage cert as they could hold some clues?
JJ
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1938 Electoral Register records George Herbert Brown and Adelaide Brown living at 2 Kersley Mews, Battersea S.W.11
JJ
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Here's a link to the marriage entry
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01h2g/
The witnesses were Mary F Hull and ??
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14th March 1914: George Herbert Brown, a baker aged 17 years and one month is sentenced at Leicester to 3 years Borstal for stealing a watch. Previous convictions:
29th August 1907: Croydon - 6 strokes for placing an obstacle on the railway
5th October 1908: Epsom - 5 years on a training ship for stealing 3/6
The age ties exactly with the RN stoker from Sheffield, and he was a baker.
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The army file lists brothers Cyril and Leonard serving in the Durham Light Infantry in 1913
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14th March 1914: George Herbert Brown, a baker aged 17 years and one month is sentenced at Leicester to 3 years Borstal for stealing a watch. Previous convictions:
That makes the 1934 report a bit more likely.
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This may not be your George but there is a report in the Kent & Sussex Courier 29 Jun 1934 of a George Herbert Brown , 38 , a ganger of Chatham , being sentenced to 3 years penal servitude following a robbery.
An earlier Yorkshire Post report of his arrest (28 May 1934) gives his address as The Brook, Chatham.
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This may not be your George but there is a report in the Kent & Sussex Courier 29 Jun 1934 of a George Herbert Brown , 38 , a ganger of Chatham , being sentenced to 3 years penal servitude following a robbery.
An earlier Yorkshire Post report of his arrest (28 May 1934) gives his address as The Brook, Chatham.
Ronald Brown (son of George) was born 8th December 1934, address given as 123 Brook, Chatham.
JJ
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29th August 1907: Croydon - 6 strokes for placing an obstacle on the railway
5th October 1908: Epsom - 5 years on a training ship for stealing 3/6
I'm following the trail of these offences to see if we are on the right track. Newspaper reports from September and October 1908 ("The Boy Brown in Trouble Again" is one headline from the Dorking Advertiser) reveal that the chief witnesses against were the boy's parents and younger brother.
The father was William Cavill Brown and the younger brother was Percy Lionel Brown. Address 25 Caen Wood Road, Ashtead,Surrey.
There's a family in Sheffield in 1901 that matches:
25 Carfield Road:
William C Brown 48 journeyman joiner, Lincs, Barton on Humber
Lucy E wife 45, Lincs Appleby
Leonard son 10 Sheffield
????? son 8 Sheffield
George H son 3 Sheffield
Percy L 2 Sheffield
There is an online tree that records the birth of a son Cyril to William Cavill Brown in 1889.
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1891 with Cyril -
William C Brown 38
Lucy E Brown 36
William R Brown 7
Oscar O Brown 4
Cyril E Brown 2
RG12 Piece 3802 Folio 80 Page 14
Oscar ends up in a reformatory for stealing. Records show his father as a joiner.
JJ
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14th March 1914: George Herbert Brown, a baker aged 17 years and one month is sentenced at Leicester to 3 years Borstal for stealing a watch. Previous convictions:
29th August 1907: Croydon - 6 strokes for placing an obstacle on the railway
5th October 1908: Epsom - 5 years on a training ship for stealing 3/6
The report on the 1908 incident mentions a brother , Percy Lionel , aged 9. In 1910 Percy Lionel of 21 Chipstead Villas , Coulsden , Surrey appears in Court , charged with stealing coal. The Chipstead Villas address can be found on the census and leads to an Oscar Oswald Brown b1887 Grimsby.
1911 index for Oscar Oswald Brown:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW8N-DN8
1891 census for Oscar , transcribed Oscar D Brown, giving parents William C and Lucy E Brown in Grimsby:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7L4L-26Z ( advisable to view an image on ancestry or FindMyPast )
1901 census
William C Broun 48 b Barton Humberside
Lucy E Broun 45
Leonard 10
Vincent 8
George H Broun 1 b Sheffield
Percy L Broun 2 b Sheffield
address Heeley , Sheffield
I see some of this has already been covered but will post anyway because of Percy Lionel and the Surrey connection.
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1901 3983/139/6
Cyril Edgar Brown 11 yrs born Sheffield is an inmate in North Lancashire Reformatory for Boys
I am assuming that this is brother Cyril.
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WOW, it's a Valentine's miracle!
You lot truly are amazing, let me digest all of this///
Hi,
Who are the witnesses on the marriage cert as they could hold some clues?
JJ
I have a copy of the marriage certificate and to me it looks like Mary F. Hull and R. H. J. Mester
1938 Electoral Register records George Herbert Brown and Adelaide Brown living at 2 Kersley Mews, Battersea S.W.11
JJ
What a find, thank you so much JJ! I've had a quick look on Google Maps and Kersley Mews is only a 10 minute walk from Battersea Park Road (Adelaide's address on the 1939 Register).
This may not be your George but there is a report in the Kent & Sussex Courier 29 Jun 1934 of a George Herbert Brown , 38 , a ganger of Chatham , being sentenced to 3 years penal servitude following a robbery. Looking at your picture it's a bit difficult to reconcile the two !
He does look quite respectable, doesn't he? Must have been Sunday best!
ShaunJ & CB53 thank you so much for looking into the newspaper reports! Are these available in the Gale British Newspapers Collection, or elsewhere?
This all very exciting! (And not the first criminal to show up in my family, haha!)
I found this photo of Oscar Oswald... It might be wishful thinking but I can see a resemblance between him and Topper (George Herbert)... The nose and chin especially... And he looks a LOT like my dad. This is blowing my mind a bit!
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FindMyPast has a 1918 merchant navy seaman's identity certificate for George Herbert Brown born Sheffield 24/2/1897, a trimmer. It has a striking photograph of the young man.
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KGarrad, ShaunJ, paco, rosie99, heywood, CB53, JJen and bearkat thank you so much for taking the time to look into this for me. You've helped turn up so much new information and set me on the way to find out more about Topper's ancestors as well as his life.
I spoke to my grandmother today (she is Topper's granddaughter). She said that she'd never been told about Topper's past but that he was "a rotten chap" and "a real hard nut" so she wasn't surprised!
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As an update on this, I've been in touch with the Surrey History Centre and they have an enrollment record for George Herbert Brown at the Royal Philanthropic Society School which seems to match with Topper :)
The record includes a photograph - can't wait to see it!
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Thanks for the update - great success :)
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Yes thanks for the update. It's always good to know when something works out.
Christine
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I'm so excited!
The digital scan arrived today and I opened the file to see this sullen-looking face... With ginger hair and dimpled chin.
Inside the file we have lots of matching details with his father William Cavill Brown ("Good worker but drinks"), his brother Oscar living at Chipstead Villas and Cyril in the Durham Light Infantry. The brief description of his history covers the "obstruction on the railway" incident and being expelled from school, plus fills in a little about his time at the Farm School.
I found it very sad that the "Friends interested in him" column was left blank and his parents were initially listed as "present address unknown." Also, I was astounded to discover that he already had several tattoos on each forearm at the age of 14!
A huge thank you once more to everyone who looked into this family mystery for me. It's turned up far more than I ever hoped to know!
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He has very sad eyes- a hard life!
It is great though that you have all that information.
Regards
Heywood