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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: Llanfihangel on Monday 15 February 16 04:38 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
Can anyone comment on this information I received from the RP312 Project Monitor at FTDNA:
I am asking this because I found that my DNA results were S27900 positive. I was born in Wales.
Thanks
Llanfi :) :) :) :) :) ???
"Here is a link to people whose "Big Y" results show they carry the S27900 marker. Their kit numbers appear below their names.
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=202
You should be able to see their earliest known ancestor in section G in the DNA sections of the project website; None lists an origin beyond the USA.
William Williams, c.1851 GA, TN or MS
Sterling Jenkins, Wilkes Co, GA
James Price, 1623-1864 (ILL?) He does list Wales as his country of origin.
John Powel, b.1745 Newberry Township, York Co. PA
All of them have the rare 392=14 and 464c/d=16,18
I believe the S27900 marker was discovered by BritainsDNA in the UK. I have it on good authority that it is an old and important marker in Wales. FTDNA does not offer testing for it as an a la carte order, and it does not appear on their haplotree. However we were able to get them to include it in their new P312 SNP pack test".
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What's surprising is that this is such an ancient obscure branch, peculiar to Wales, 4500 years old and there are so very many of you. We have one autosomal gentleman in the CORNWALL project and he has about 30 Y-67 matches. There must have been some big population expansion in Wales in the last 1500 years or so, in which this rare uniquely Welsh group was a key player.
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Hello Joeflood,
Thanks for your reply...
There are more S27900 people in FTDNA now, and they are offering a special low price for FTDNA clients wanting this additional test.
There is one with a variant from the usual 392=14 and 464c/d=16,18. They all have 392=14, but 464c=16 may not be "written in stone"
Based on a hunch, a common ancestor lived in North Wales, ca 1300 and was a Madoc
Does your CORNWALL gentleman have 30 EXACT Y-67 matches and is he also +S27900?
Cheers,
Llanfi
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We dont have any Cornish 27900,it is a unique Welsh marker as far as I can see (at least, almost all the associated surnames are Welsh). From the SNP count it looks to me as if it has been in Wales at least pre-Roman.
However there is a very large subgroup of Welshmen who have not yet tested and who do in fact date back to maybe 1000 AD or so. We know this because a Welsh autosomal member of our CORNWALL group has more than 100 Y-67 matches, all Welsh names. A few Big Y's in the group might let us target a common TMRCA; as I dont think STRs are very accurate. once you get out that far.
The multi-values STRs change quite quickly, so there are bound to be a few lines of S27900 with different #DYS392
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Interesting information!
What is the CORNWALL group?
I have 70 Y67 matches on Family Tree DNA with genetic distances ranging from 3 to 7 about 80% with Welsh names, nearly all with earliest known ancestors in the United States
Not a single one (even Y12) with my Welsh surname, however.
The "Family Finder" matches are all very obscure and seemingly useless
Cheers,
llanfi :) :) :) :) :)
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Very interesting info. Thanks
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Hi, just got my Big Y results and I am s27900. FTDNA is evaluating the results, apparently I have some new SNPs but just me or me and a Powell have them so they may not be declared. Last name is Meek. earliest ancestor is a Thomas Meek born about 1735 in Antrim, Northern Ireland. Family lore is the family went to Ireland from Cornwall.
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Hello Winmeek
I got my BigY results a couple of days ago as well. I had already been tested for S27900 and I don't think I got much value from the BigY data. There are a lot of "non-matching" SNP variants listed for you and the other 9 people on the S27900 group, and there is a list for your non-matching SNPs as well as the rest, and like you they list everyone else's BUT NOT MINE(??). There also also a discrepancy between the results shown on the "Big Tree" http://www.Tyree.net/DisplayTree.php?block ID=1009
I have done a laborious check on my Snaps and find that my Fetidness's search ended at A5970, that leaves me "hanging" while the Big Tree managed to go a bit further and separate six members into three separate groups.
I don't have the expertise to make much of the detail FTDNA's BigY provided, but I do think it is odd that my non-matching SNP variants aren't listed so that I can compare results with you and the others.
Maybe we can exchange screen shots of the Pugh and Meek variants, but we will have to go offline for that..
On the whole I am very disappointed with the FTDNA Big Y results, but maybe we will get more people in the S27900 haplogroup and our interpretions might get better as time goes on..
Cheers,
Llanfi :) ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Hello Winmeek,
For Snaps please read SNPs and for Fetidness's read FTDNA BigY .. (I used the Spelling Checker!)
I have a spelling chequer
It came with my PC
It plainly marks for my revue
miss takes I cannot see
I've run this poem threw it
I'm shore your pleased two no
its letter perfect in its weigh
my chequer tolled me sew.
Cheers,
Llanfi :) :) :) :) :)
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First of all - thanks for one of the few good discussions about YDNA on this forum.
Here are comments about S27900:
1) Its location under P312 is very unique and not common among people with English speaking ancestors. It belongs to the major branch ZZ37_1 which is directly under P312. Out of all 4,980 NGS (Big Y) testers, only 31 resided under ZZ37_1. This is around 0.6 % of the P312. So this part of the P312 haplotree has very few living descendants compared to other haplogroups. This is good and bad.
2) It is bad since you will have to proactively recruit to make progress that other more common haplogroups enjoy. Your expectations need to be adjusted to be less than what other haplogroups enjoy for robust sample sizes where significant progress is being made. Your testing should be considered more of an investment in the future that will eventually reveal the same progress of other more common haplogroups.
3) It is good since the few people that are related will be related and you will have no shortage of private YSNPs to test as your line will have 10X the mutations since it has 1 to 100 less testers. It is like having a rare surname - easy to sort out who is related and who is not. As shown by some of your unique YSTR marker values, this is a direct result of being so genetically isolated from the rest of us (in my case - R-L226).
4) Since you belong to a very small scope branch of P312, there will probably have great diversity of the older parts of ZZ37_1 but you may have very specific ties to much smaller geographic areas for younger branches. Having a major Welsh concentration is possible when you belong to a very small scope branch.
5) My project, R-L226, is around 1,500 years old with 645 testers at 67 markers and has 102 NGS tests to date (ten on order now as well). ZZ37_1 is 4,100 years old with only 31 NGS testers. We are now getting one and two new private mutations for many new Big Y testers. Your part of the haplotree will get five to fifteen on a regular basis. So eventually, you will have a lot more genetic data per person to enjoy - but you will also get a ton more YSNPs that are not shared until some future date (or one of your branches becomes somewhat prolific).
Your mileage will vary is the point of this post. I have so many testers it is hard for me to keep up with and there is a lot of YSTR overlap due to statistical variation. You guys will be able to build a very robust YSNP haplotree eventually that will have minimal YSTR overlap. However, the progress to solve genealogical problems will be a challenge for your haplogroup with such a small sample size.
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Hello Winmeek and RobertCasey.
Thanks for your information!
I have checked some of the Project Groups on FTDNA, and found several S27800 kits that aren't on the Big Y. They probably paid FTDNA to be tested directly for S27900 or the R1b-P312 SNP Pack, and they are far less expensive than the BigY.
FTDNA doesn't provide ready access to these alternatives.
It seems very likely that kits with DYS392=14, and DYS464 c,d=16,18 (or maybe 16,17) will be RS27900. Some families, such as Meek, Williams, Powell and Webb have 15-20 kits likely to test positive for S27900.
Those kits (like mine) that tested for RS27900 prior to BigY don't show up on the BigY matching name list. And since my BigY haplotype has now been "updated" by FTDNA to FGC39849 - a sub-clade of RS27900, it will probably mislead others looking for matches to S27900.
As I mentioned before, there seems to be a difference between the precision of the old BigY testing process and the new one.. The new one doesn't seem to go as far, or maybe the interpretation is different.
I am in contact with FTDNA and hope to get an informative answer to some of these issues.
The ancestral names are no longer exclusive Welsh, and there are now several DYS390 with the "English" 24 as opposed to the "Welsh" 23
:) :) :) :) :) :) Llanfi
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Thanks everyone for the enlightening posts.
I would like to get snp test others in my Meek dna group. We work mainly with FTDNA. Is Big Y the only test that gives the variants or can I get this with the P312 snp pack or perhaps use some other companies test?
The discussion suggests there are more s27900 tests than I know of. How can I find those tests and see their variants?
Thanks, Fred
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There are two other major players for NGS/WGS testing: Full Genomes Coporation (the first vendor to offer a NGS test around 18 months before FTDNA responded with their Big Y); YSEQ (the former FTDNA scientists for the first 15 years of FTDNA) who offers a Whole Genomes Sequencing test.
These tests are significantly better than Big Y but cost more as well. There are only two scenarios where I recommend these higher resolution tests. If you are now NGS testing in the genealogical time frame, the extra 30 % coverage of the Y chromosome is worth the extra 30 % cost. Also, if there have been four or five NGS tests for the same branch (it appears to be a bottleneck branch), the extra coverage makes sense in this scenario as well. I still prefer NGS tests over WGS tests. YSEQ only offers a lower end WGS test (the analysis of WGS is very different). Full Genomes has another new NGS test that covers 2X the Y chromosome than the Big Y - it is in beta test for the first few tests. This is only for those who are really into NGS testing as this test is currently $2,950. 2X coverage for 5X the cost. Over the next year or two, this test (or some other equivalent test will be under $1,000). This test reads all 111 FTDFNA YSTR markers which saves another $340, so it really only 3X the cost if you have not taken the YSTR to date. When the price comes down to $2,000, it would be 2X the cost for 2X the data (for first time YDNA testers).
The P312 SNP pack is very marginal for S27900. It does not include any the four downstream branches below S27900 or ZZ37_1 and ZZ38_1 which are above S27900. It appears to only include S27900 itself which would be $119 for just one YSNP. You would be better off testing some of these YSNPs individually at YSEQ for more functionality and less cost. These tests are $18 each plus $5 for shipping the collection kit. You should also use the FTDNA YSTR matches button to see what YSNPs that your closer matches are testing positive for.
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Hi,
To test for S27900 -- it is an SNP; THIS WILL verify positive or negative for S27900 only!!!
Go to FTDNA
Click on Upgrade to find the "Order New Tests" page
Select the "Advanced Tests" panel and click "Buy Now"
This opens the "Select a Product" page
Select SNP from the drop-down menu
and find S27900
It will cost $39 US and can be added to your shopping cart.
I cannot endorse people doing this, I am not an employee or associate of FTDNA
People should consult with their Project Administrators as to the pros and cons of various FTDNA test options.
Please see the attached screen shots
:) :) :) :) :)
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Hi,
My FTDNA Big Y haplotype is now R-FCG39549.
There are 3 kits with R-FCG39549, 2 with R-FCG39555, 2 with R-BY36115, 1 with R-BY19604, and 5 with R-S27900 in the FTDNA "RP312 and Subclades" Project- Group F2b. S27900+ (R1b-P312>ZZ37>ZZ38>Z29645>S27900)
So if you want to keep track of kits with R-S27900 and its subclades you might be well advised to join the "RP312 and Subclades Project" group. I take my hat off to the Project administrators for defining Group F2b so wisely!!
Cheers,
Llanfi
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Hello Winmeek,
I see that you are part-way down the Big Tree Panel and that you may be "stuck" at R-A5305. Try looking at the downstream SNPs on the FTDNA BIgY Resukts page. FTDNA tells me that you have to set the "Derived" drop-down to "Show all" .
FTDNA has me at R-FCG39549 but when I check for R-FCG39555 that is at the bottom of the Big Tree panel, I find what I think is a convincing positive, although FTDNA's return on the search shows "no (-) please see my chart, attached.
Big Tree has the following statement:
A red background is used for men whose data has not yet been fully analyzed. His position on the tree is not yet final, and will in general be downstream of the current position. He may not be positive for all the SNPs/INDELs in the block he descends from.
I think that the Big Y analysis stops as soon as a negative SNP result is found, and in my case they didn't go down to FGC39555.
I got "currently no results" for 22460816-C-T, ? for BY11430, Yes (+) for FGC39563, ? for BY15471, "currently no results" for BY38545, ? for A540, and No (-) for FGC39555
Do you know if the Big Tree people do a separate interpretation (from FTDNA) of the uploaded CSV file?
I have contacted FTDNA on this but I haven't heard back
I would appreciate any comments and guidance on interpreting my FGC39555 chart and BigY in general.
Cheers,
Llanfi :) :) :) :)
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Thanks for the information. I am in the p312 and subclades group. I tried to go look for s27900s but there are thousands of tests and no search feature. Do you know how to get the tests of interest off that site? How can I get your unnamed varients?
The Big Tree interpretation can be different from FTDNA. I've been told the one guy at FTDNA that does this work is backlogged but will get to my test and interpret it. I am just learning about how to interpret this. Another interpretation of my results is shown in the attachment - this groups me with Eager Powell based on shared varients and differences from the other s27900s. I plan to get another of the Meeks tested so it should all be sorted out eventually.
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What is your kit number?
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Okay, I did figure out how to get the s27900 data off the site, are you a Williams?
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No, It's Kit 180710
Cheers
Llanfi
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Thanks I see your info. I have my ancestry traced back to a Thomas Meek born about 1735 in Ahoghill Parish, County Antrim. My Meek line was planted in Northern Ireland. The family lore appears to have more significance now. The progenitor was supposedly the Thomas Meek who in 1688 commanded the ship "John Trelawny" in the battle of the Armada. The John Trelawney was a coaster provided by several towns in Cornwall so presumably Thomas was also from that region. He was a friend of Drake who was from Devonshire and is on the crew list for Drake's voyage that circumvented the globe. Thomas supposedly got a land grant in Ireland for military service. The records however show that a John Meek was in the plantations in 1609. Perhaps John was a son of Thomas and the progenitor of this Meek dna group? There are 25 of us tested to Meek dna group E by y-STR. I am planning to get another Meek SNP test, that will probably wait until I can get a discount. I live about a mile from the FTDNA office.
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I come very late to this thread, having only just joined RootsChat. I'm pretty sure I've communicated by email with winmeek (or one of his relations), but not with the others on the thread. I am FTDNA kit 559793 and YSEQ kit 20882. On the Big Tree I am shown below SNP Y81518 but on FTDNA's Big Y block tree I am still below R-BY19604 because I tested for Y81518 on YSEQ to save having to pay for the BigY700 upgrade. It was winmeek or a relation who kindly alerted me to the fact that three close matches who had upgraded to BigY700 showed the Y81518 marker.
I'm afraid I have nothing to add to the thread itself - my experience of DNA is very limited - but I want to contact Llanfihangel as we are relatively close on the Big Tree and we both still live in the UK. My closest DNA matches (Williamson, Danse, Smith) are all US-based and as far as I know were unaware of their probable Welsh roots until they did the Big Y test. I cannot use the PM system until I have posted three times and I'm not sure if this counts as one or if I have to start a thread. One way or another, I'll be in touch with you, Llanfihangel, if I may. If any of the others have any helpful comments relating to my DNA tests do please say so.
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Hello DewiSant55
I was born in Wales, and my family came from Breconshire. You joined the R-ZZ37 Project at FTDNA and have probably gone as far as you can with their BigY
I have been researching the Williams families in Breconshire for years now, looking for relatives of a "Deacon" William Williams who left Radnor/Breconshire for Ohio in 1820. I don't have any DNA data for him, as he never took a test. There is another Williams with a very close match to me (my kit is 180710) on the Project website. Although kit 828954's ancestor came from Breconshire in the early 1800's we have been unable to find any reasonable family link.
I think you might have a bit more success if you added your ancestor's birthplace and country " ... Wales) to your ID on FTDNA
I have been in touch with a couple of others from Wales who are on the same Project. However, you should bear in mind that you need a close Y-67 or greater match to have a reasonable chance of tracing ancestors because Welsh surnames are patrynomic before about 1700.
I have a relative William Thomas who had two sons .. one named Thomas William and the other William Thomas!!
I have had good success with FindmyPast in tracing my supposed ancestry back to 1714. It took a lot of time and lots of searches. However, the best trace I got was from Rootschat a long time ago.
Once you have identified a possible ancestor, you can look at FreeReg (on line) as well as on-line wills at the Library of Wales. The Library of Wales also has an online enquiry service, that is extremely helpful for focussed questions and searches of obscure Church records. They also have a Chat line, but I've not used it so far..
FTDNA hasn't turned up ANY close matches to my markers with my surname so far!
Cheers,
Llanfi
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Thank you, Llanfi.
I'm also in the Williams, Williamson, Welsh Patronymics and R P312/subclades projects. I've followed your suggestion about adding Wales to my Direct Paternal Ancestor - I had already given Wales as his country of origin, but that didn't appear on the FTDNA project charts. I hope this is what you mean - if not, please let me know.
I understand that the chances of YDNA helping to break down the wall at my paternal g-g-grandfather are slim, but at least I've found a few distant cousins in the US and who knows what the future will bring as others test positive for the S27900 marker?
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Hi,
I am the volunteer administrator of the FTDNA Williamson Surname Project. I have a cluster of S27900 descendants who come through Y81518:
S27900 > FGC39551 > FGC53441 > FGC39549 > FGC39559 > BY19604 > Y81518
The surnames that belong to this SNP include Williamson, Smith and Price. Immediately upstream, we then have Williams, Lewis, Jenkins, and Evans at BY19604. The group of 11 Big Y participants at BY19604 average only 5 mutations, which suggests that it is reasonably recent and perhaps within the timing of written records; STRs likewise seem to support this possibility.
Llanfihangel mentioned that patronymics were still common in Wales before 1700, meaning that a family line could have several generations of closely related individuals migrating off to the American Colonies through the late 1600s to early 1700s, but each then having a unique surname here in the States. Have any of you looked at your early lines to identify surnames that branched off of them?
Llanfihangel, you seem to connect in with this group at FGC39559, which has some 21 participants with Big Y averaging only 8 mutations, so not too much further out. Do you have a public tree of your pre-1800 ancestors that I could take a look at in considering this question? I saw that one of the Williams lines within R-S27900, who is not too far removed from our Williamson group (Y111 GD6), taces his line to an "Ellis ap William ap Hugh, b. 1590 Merioneth Wales"; with that name itself allowing for lines of surname Williams, Lewis, and Pugh if any of those three generations were to leave patronymics in favor of a consistent surname (noting that Williams, Lewis and Pugh are all surname clusters within the R-FGC39559 branch).
Thomas
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Hello ThomasDNA,
FTDNA Big Y 700 data shows that I match a Williams (Y111-1) and we are so close that FTDNA generated a new Haptotype family for the two of us called R-BY67074 immediately under R-FGC39559.
Both of our families come from Breconshire, Wales. My Family stayed in Wales, and his family emigrated to Radnor Ohio. In spite of strenuous efforts, neither of us can find even the remotest family connection,
There was a spate of emigrants from Breconshire to Radnor Ohio, after a David Pugh (Skreen Farm, Llandeilo Graban) purchased land there about 1803. As I posted before, David Pugh's father married Mary Williams in Llandefalle Breconshire in the mid 1700's. His eldest son David emigrated to Ohio, almost immediately after a "Deacon" William Williams (who was married to David Pugh's sister Isabella) had returned to Breconshire, after doing a scouting trip led by a Theophilus Rees from Pembrokeshire.
I failed to trace Deacon Williams birthplace in Wales, although I had lengthy correspondence with a descendant in Licking Ohio. Also I found no link at all between my family and David Pugh's.
Also, I have a fairly close Y111-7 with Ellis ap William ap Hugh 1590 Merionethshire, Wales. His lineage is truly outstanding, and Rea Williams (Duncan Williams' son) made a database of thousands of Williams's in North America and Wales. http://rea-williams.com/getperson.php?personID=I17739&tree=tree1
Rea traced his Merionethshire family back to the 1600s and the details have been confirmed by several notable geneaologists.
Once again, I found no connection between my family and his, but I expect there are many Williamsons in his database. Rea's haplotype is R-S27900, but he died a couple of years ago, and there is little prospect of going deeper into the haplotype comparisons.
There is a family tree on Ancestry that has an accurate view of my family. I didn't publish it, and it was developed independently but the details are quite accurate.
I have sent a personal message to you, and we can discuss off-line
Best Regards,
Llanfi