RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Derbyshire => England => Derbyshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: robert g shaw on Tuesday 16 February 16 16:33 GMT (UK)
-
hi
i have a problem, trying to locate the death of my great x3 grandfather william hill. he was born to a william and mary around 1785 somewhere near derby. his father william lived in muggington and later ockbrook. william (junior) married ann at ocbrook in 1806 (they were both 21) , then re married rachael hutchinson at ashbourne in 1816, he was a widower, before moving and living at ockbrook.
william and second wife rachael had several children whilst living at ockbrook, he was a miller, . but by the 1841 census, rachael and family were living without william and rachael was a widow.
their last child was born in 1831 (but christened in 1835) - so somewhere in those ten years william died. (his father died in ockbrook in 1830) .
i can not find or match a death of a william hill in this timeframe. he is not recorded as being buried at ockbrook, ive been through the register.
so either theres an incorrectly recorded death
or he 'ran off' with someone and rachael recorded herself as widowed to save face
or he died in prison? (rumours have it that he was convicted for selling short measures of flour but ive yet to confirm this) .
has anyone any ideas or have access to further records?
thanks.
-
william and second wife rachael had several children whilst living at ockbrook, he was a miller, . but by the 1841 census, rachael and family were living without william and rachael was a widow.
Marital status isn't routinely recorded in the 1841 census. Is this the household in 1841?
Borrowash, Ockbrook
Rachel Hill 40 Charwoman
Mary do 20
Edward do 15 Cotton doubling
William do 13 do
William do 1
Eliza do 10
all born in county.
-
yes thats them... edward (actually its edwin) is my great x2 grandfather.
youre right though, i assumed rachael was a widow, however i still cannot find 'my' william hill on that census and she was a widow on 1851 so was it a fair assumption she was by 41?
-
Well, you mentioned he possibly had a criminal background, so he could have been in prison on 1841 census night?
Or just away from home that night. I see a 55 yr old William Hill in Norton, with an elderly Joanna Hill.
Have you checked deaths 1841-1851?
-
Well, you mentioned he possibly had a criminal background, so he could have been in prison on 1841 census night?
Or just away from home that night. I see a 55 yr old William Hill in Norton, with an elderly Joanna Hill.
Have you checked deaths 1841-1851?
yep i guess its possible he was in prison for the 41 census, or hospital?
theres further intrigue.... williams eldest son, samuel and his wife ann also were not recorded on the 1841 census. heres what i wrote in this families branch
"On the 1841 census, I cannot find Samuel or Ann anywhere, but Jemima (their daughter) is living with the Millingtons which seems strange, until we see Jemimas marriage in 1864 and her father is William Millington.
It appears that Ann had an affair, or was seduced (or raped?) by William Millington. Samuel and Ann had left the area to get her away from William? Hence no mention in 1841"
now i wonder whether samuels dad, william, took the law into his own hands here and did something to william millington. OR he could be living, somewhere, with his son samuel and ann .
william could also be buried with his first wife, ann, and daughter eliza (born 1807) - but i can find no trace of anns death, nor elizas.
ive not done a broad search for his deather 1841-51, but he is not at ockbrook or borrowash or recorded in the shardlow district (where he would have been).
see... its a complicated and patchy scene, but he must have been somewhere, either alive or dead.
-
JUst putting the 1851 up here so we can see all the family a bit clearer
1851
Gills Row Ockbrook
Rachel 56 widow laundress bn Derby
Samuel 34 son married bn Mugginton
Ann 32 dtr in law bn Ormeston
William 2 grandson bn Ormeston
Jemima 13 granddtr bn Ockbrook
Eliza dtr 19 bn Ockbrook
Emma Hutchinson 7 neice bn Mugginton
and 1861
Ockbrook
Rachel 67 widow charwoman
Jemima 22 granddtr
William 13 gson
There is a Millington family next door but one.
If Jemima is with the Millingtons in 1841, and with her grandmother in later censuses, and you have her father as William Willington from her marriage cert, - how do you know she is a child of Ann Hill, wife of Samuel? Or are there other daughters of Rachel Hill who may be her mother?
Have you got her birth cert?
Assumnig she is Ann's, then when did Samuel and Ann marry? Were they married by 1841? Was Jemima a child of a previous marriage, or an illegitmate child of Ann's?
-
yes the millingtons were neighbours it seems
"He (samuel) married Ann Warren in 1835 at Ockbrook, their first child, Jemima, was born in 1839." so yep jemima was legitimate, i havnt her birth cert nor marriage just going off online info.
im satisfied that jemima was anns daughter , whether or not her father is samuels or millingtons we will never know without dna. but samuel and ann were married well before jemima was conceived , so to have her living with the millingtons and citing william millington as her father is imho rather compelling evidence of anns disloyalty .
william and rachael did have a daughter mary in 1820, and its the younger william on the 1841 census that i believe to be hers.
mary is another one who vanishes, with no record of a burial, nor marriage, along with son william.
-
i havnt her birth cert nor marriage just going off online info.
What sort of "online info" - do you mean parish register of her baptism or marriage (ie an original document we are fortunate to be able to view online) ?
If you have seen the record of Jemima Hill marrying, but giving father as William Millington, then one does ask why if you have also have a birth cert when her father is Samuel Hill, and other evidence that they are the same Jemimas. One possible explanation would be that her dad died and her mum remarried and she gave her step dads name as he was the father she knew.
But without her birth and marriage certs, you cannot be sure of the facts to start with, before starting to look for explanations?
-
Here is the 1841 - just to save everyone looking for it
1841
Ockbrook
Ann Millington 55
Ann Millington 20
John 25
William 20
Jemima Hall 4
-
i havnt her birth cert nor marriage just going off online info.
What sort of "online info" - do you mean parish register of her baptism or marriage (ie an original document we are fortunate to be able to view online) ?
If you have seen the record of Jemima Hill marrying, but giving father as William Millington, then one does ask why if you have also have a birth cert when her father is Samuel Hill, and other evidence that they are the same Jemimas. One possible explanation would be that her dad died and her mum remarried and she gave her step dads name as he was the father she knew.
But without her birth and marriage certs, you cannot be sure of the facts to start with, before starting to look for explanations?
i saw her marriage register at the local record office, thats how i know about william millington. her surname though was hill not millington. theres no other trace of a jemima hill or millington.
however, this is a side issue, they arent my main point of interest but william is as hes my direct ancestor . there are several deaths for william between 1841 and 1851 when rachael is first recorded as a widow. one of these is in the right district for ockbrook, - shardlow, in 1848. this has to be the main candidate, but the record holds no information on his age, location, or burial place. im not sure how i can discover this.
-
Getting a copy of his death cert - www.gro.gov.uk -
That hopefully will give you an age, place where died, and name of informant, al lof which will help you see if this is the right person
-
Getting a copy of his death cert - www.gro.gov.uk -
That hopefully will give you an age, place where died, and name of informant, al lof which will help you see if this is the right person
yeah i could, but im abit reluctant to do this if hes not my relation! lol.. is that the only way of getting this info? i am local so are these vague records available in full at the local office?
cheers btw :)
-
No, only way to see what is on death cert is to buy it.
-
No, only way to see what is on death cert is to buy it.
thats fair enough, but why can i not find a burial off church records? ive searched all local to ockbrook and have drawn a blank.
strange thing is... his dad william, his children william, eliza, samuel and ann are all buried at ockbrook between 1830 and 1858. this deepens the mystery, why isnt he there?. (assuming he died between 1831 and 1851).
-
Shardrow reg district will cover many parishes.
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/shardlow.html
So the William Hill dying in 1848 could be buried in any of those.
-
Shardrow reg district will cover many parishes.
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/shardlow.html
So the William Hill dying in 1848 could be buried in any of those.
interesting thanks, ive searched the burial records around ockbrook/borrowash which makes sense because that where he and his family lived.
interestingly i know rachaels death date (1864) , but not where shes buried either. theres a cemetry in borrowash that dates from around that time, but theres no headstone (for any of these hills, and not even my granddad who died in 1976, he wouldnt have one - maybe a family trait?)
-
Headstones were an expensive luxury that many could not afford.
Many people find few of their ancestors had one.
(Still are expensive!)
-
D'OH!
should have been on the ball... the william hill who died in 1848 in the shardlow district was 'my' william hills youngest son!
so 'my' william hills whereabouts/death/burial still remains a mystery.
-
interestingly i know rachaels death date (1864) , but not where shes buried either.
Burial at Ockbrook
Rachel Hill
Age 70
Burial date 20 Apr 1864
-
interestingly i know rachaels death date (1864) , but not where shes buried either.
Burial at Ockbrook
Rachel Hill
Age 70
Burial date 20 Apr 1864
yes, ive got that now. that, along with some other records have been added since my original post.
cheers
-
MYSTERY SOLVED
I should have looked outside the box... i (and my late mother) assumed that the William Hill who married Rachael Hutchinson in Ashbourne in 1816 was William Hill 1783, son of William 1760 and Mary (Tarrat).
William 1783 married Ann Taylor at Ockbrook in 1806 - so we assumed that when William Hill married Rachael Hutchinson in 1816 and had children at Ockbrook and Borrowash including my direct Great grandfather x2 Edwin in 1825, Edwins father was William Hill 1783...
William Hill 1783 and Ann went to live in London where they had several more children (Eliza was born soon after they married in 1806) and lead me wrongly to assume he was a bigamist leading a double life. This was made more compelling as William, Ann, Eliza, and their other children were on the 1841 census, as if William 1783 had something to hide.
That assumption was wrong.
Rachael Hutchinson married William Hill 1760, (1783's father) after William Hill 1760s first wife Mary Tarrat dies in 1815.
It was an easy assumption to make, as William Hill 1783 was only ten years older than Rachael, and when Rachael married William Hill 1760, he was 55, she was 22 !!!
So William Hill 1783 was my great uncle x3, not my great grandfather x3.... that is now thought to be William Hill 1760.
-
yes the millingtons were neighbours it seems
"He (samuel) married Ann Warren in 1835 at Ockbrook, their first child, Jemima, was born in 1839." so yep jemima was legitimate, i havnt her birth cert nor marriage just going off online info.
im satisfied that jemima was anns daughter , whether or not her father is samuels or millingtons we will never know without dna. but samuel and ann were married well before jemima was conceived , so to have her living with the millingtons and citing william millington as her father is imho rather compelling evidence of anns disloyalty .
william and rachael did have a daughter mary in 1820, and its the younger william on the 1841 census that i believe to be hers.
mary is another one who vanishes, with no record of a burial, nor marriage, along with son william.
I can now discount this, it seems Jemima was Marys illegitimate daughter, not Ann and Samuels.
-
I cannot help you with William Hill but Jemima was one of my ancestors. I have the year of her birth as 1837 so it would not be registered. She married in 1864 into a farming family, her husband died around 1915. I am sure it is the same family as I have her father as William Millington of Borrowash.
-
Looks like Jemima was a late bapt;
JEMIMA Hill, 11 Jul 1852 All Saints, Ockbrrok
Mother MARY a Mill hand
Abode Shacklecross
(FreeREG)
Her Marriage is on FreeREG also .
Trish :)
-
Jemima was My Great Great Grandma, she married Jesse Sims in Ockbrook about 1864 and their son James, my Great Granddad was born about 1864 as well. The Sims family were farmers in the Ockbrook/Borrowash area. They also had a son William and I think other children as well.
-
Jemima was My Great Great Grandma, she married Jesse Sims in Ockbrook about 1864 and their son James, my Great Granddad was born about 1864 as well. The Sims family were farmers in the Ockbrook/Borrowash area. They also had a son William and I think other children as well.
Hello.... it appears then that we are related.
Jemima was the illegitimate daughter of Mary 1821, Marys brother Edwin 1825 is my direct ancestor.
Their parents were William Hill 1780 - 1830 and Rachael Hutchinson 1795 - 1864.
So we are both descended from William and Rachael... Rachael was Williams second wife.
The family tree is complicated but i have sorted it out... theres a lot of infidelity, shotgun weddings, bastardy case.
Let me know if you want any information, i have a lot!
Rob.
-
How lovely to find someone I'm related to, albeit distantly. I am interested in learning more, all I had until I found this thread was the name Jemima and her father was William Millington. Do you know where the surname Millington comes in? A friend typed Jemima Millington into Ancestry and it came back as Jemima Hill. He also found that she was living with the Millingtons at one point and down as granddaughter so I am confused. The family tree does sound interesting,
-
i dont know anything about the millingtons, it sounds like a place name but ill fill you in on the hills.. ill pm you later.
-
Actually, ill write it down here so anyone else who may be linked can see it.
Thomas Hill married H/Esther (sometimes spelt with an H but i believe its Esther as one of their daughters are Esther). Last time i checked, i could find no record of their marriage, or birth, ive looked hard. Thomas died in 1799, Esther in 1800, both buried at St Werburghs Derby.
They married around 1754, probably in Derbyshire as they lived in Brailsford and neighbouring Mugginton.
Their children are..
1755 - Samuel
1758 - Thomas
1760 - William .......... these were christened at Brailsford
1762 - Joseph
1763 - Robert
1764 - Hannah
1766 - Esther
1768 - Mary
1770 - Betty .............. These were christened at Mugginton.
They were millers, and the first 4 males all were millers, and often were witnesses to eachothers marriages, which took place mainly at St Werburghs Derby.
Now William 1760 was a bit of a rum 'un ... He married Mary Tarrat in 1780, she was 15 years his senior... and their first born Samuel was born 4 months later... lol.. so yes, they had to marry.
They had another son, William 1782, and its his life that caused confusion. This is because he/they moved to London, Paddington, around 1810 - he disappeared from local records.
Mary Tarrat died in 1815, and was returned to Mugginton, from Borrowash where she and William 1760 lived.
William 1760 re-married in 1816, to Rachael Hutchinson at Ashourne. Because he was 55, she 21, we assumped Rachael had married William 1782. She hadnt, she married William 1760. (hence the confusion and reason for this thread)
Theres more rather shocking things.
Now, not only was Rachael pregnant, (history repeating itself, their son Samuel 1816 was also born within months of their marriage) but Rachael was William 1760's cousin!
William 1760's youngest sister, Betty 1770 married Joseph Hutchinson and Rachael was their first born in 1795.
So William 1760 married Rachael his cousin in 1816 at Ashbourne after getting her pregnant, before returning to Borrowash/Ockbrook after Samuel was bron in Mugginton in 1816.
Theres also a bastardy case against William, a Mary Foley claimed he is the father of her child. Ive been unable to verify this, this info came from a local source. I can find no Mary Foley in any records at Borrowash/Ockbrook around 1800.
At Borrowash and Ockbrook (neighbouring villages) they had
1821 - Mary
1825 - Edwin
1826 - William
1831 - Eliza
As William 1760 died and is burried at Ockbrook, in 1830, it begs the question whether he ever saw Eliza, or even was Eliza his?
In the 1830's the family had moved to newly built cottages/terrace at Shacklecross, Borrowash.
The Millingtons also lived next door to them, so it looks like he had seduced (or raped? ) Mary who produced Jemima.
As you know, Jemima married Jesse Simms, but did you know one of their children, Charles, emigrated to Canada?
Rachael died in 1864, and is buried at Ockbrook.
Edwin is my direct ancestor, his son George met his wife also as neighbours at Shacklecross.
George 1859-1930 and Emily (Finney) are my great grandparents on my mothers side.
So we are both descended from William 1760 and Rachael.