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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Topic started by: Catling121 on Wednesday 17 February 16 12:17 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I thought I'd start a general discussion about some annotations that are littered across the 1939 register and what they might mean.
For example, I've found two people, Henry Shepherd and Elizabeth A Shepherd, in Erith.
They have dates of birth against them, but in pencil are written alternatives, next to the writing "C.G.D. 21.4.42" which I'm assuming is the date of the update.
But firstly, why would their dates of birth change, what evidence did they have for this, and what on earth does C.G.D. mean?
All answers welcome. And if anyone else has any mysterious lettering, let's have it.
Cheers,
Chris
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Good idea Chris to start an abbreviations thread. Spooky - I posted this morning about some abbreviations!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=741823.msg5884658
I have dob change - just the day, to an incorrect one - with TYA over the year. I suppose CGD & TYA could be the initials of the 'editor'? But I don't think accountability & audit trails were that common in those days.
I did find UDD - Unpaid Domestic Duties.
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The books were annotated by a lot of different people for about 60 years, for a variety of purposes. There is no master list of what the abbreviations and code letters mean, but you can sometimes hazard a guess. A three-letter code might be an area code, where a person moved to another district (exact addresses were not updated on the Central Register). Sometimes a code might be the serial number of the form used to notify a change of some kind - these often start with 'NR' then a number.
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maybe some help on the new 1939 Hints & Tips note on LostCousins ?
http://lostcousins.com/newsletters2/1939special.htm
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I have found in two instances where a woman later re married the new surname is written in green above her name. One of these was in the 1980s! The other was in 1965 and it has 1/2 M/C written then the date 28.11.66, followed by NR no idea what that means as I looked up the marriage and it was 1965. Its a great help though.
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The Enumerator mixed up my Great Grandparents DOB's, but no one ever corrected this. I didn't find out until I bought their Birth Certificates.
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I have found in two instances where a woman later re married the new surname is written in green above her name. One of these was in the 1980s! The other was in 1965 and it has 1/2 M/C written then the date 28.11.66, followed by NR no idea what that means as I looked up the marriage and it was 1965. Its a great help though.
The date is when the adjustment was done. The register was updated with new married names until the early 1990's
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I have found in two instances where a woman later re married the new surname is written in green above her name. One of these was in the 1980s! The other was in 1965 and it has 1/2 M/C written then the date 28.11.66, followed by NR no idea what that means as I looked up the marriage and it was 1965. Its a great help though.
The date is when the adjustment was done. The register was updated with new married names until the early 1990's
I have a similar finding. The delay in the dates does relate to the date of update (some say the date on the form filled in by the applicant) but I wondered if the M/C related to the marriage certificate to distinguish the change from other alterations because of name change by Deed Poll or adoption that were also noted? The final initials in my entry were LA, could these be codes for different geographical areas or NHS registration areas?
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat
Was it Lancashire :-\ I see one I have in 1960 has LA
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Hi and thanks for the welcome Rosie. Have been a member for a while to occasionally view topics but this is the first time I've posted. Yes it was Lancashire, Manchester in fact, which also had me wondering about the MC.
Cheers
Roger
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Hi Roger
I hadn't looked to see when you registered ;D
Mine was on Heysham, Lancashire so it probably is the county reference. I am sure someone will advise us if we are wrong. :)
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Hoping someone might be able to help with an annotation in red after an entry name plus some odd looking characters over a date of birth. Any clues would be gratefully accepted. :)
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Also, just noticed to the right of the name, can anyone shed some light on this?
Thanks.
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This is a fascinating thread which raises the question 'Who did the annotations and why?'.
It is understandable that, as the 1939 Register was used as the basis for Ration Books, it would be worth while continuing to update it through to the mid 1950's. But to 1990?
I guess the work was done by or in conjunction with GRO and funded by the taxpayer. Bearing in mid the Register was not digitized, this must have been a major task and presumably, someone thought it was worthwhile keeping tabs on people all this while. Sounds a bit Big Brother-ish to me.
Having said that, the annotated notes have been a help to me in identifying relatives.
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The register was used as a resource for the NHS which is why it was kept up to date with name changes for women.
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Thanks Josey, Good explanation, although you would have thought that keeping track of people through National Insurance Numbers would have been easier.
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I guess the work was done by or in conjunction with GRO and funded by the taxpayer. Bearing in mid the Register was not digitized, this must have been a major task and presumably, someone thought it was worthwhile keeping tabs on people all this while. Sounds a bit Big Brother-ish to me.
Thanks Josey, Good explanation, although you would have thought that keeping track of people through National Insurance Numbers would have been easier.
None of this had anything to do with GRO. As Josey says, the NHS 'inherited' the Register after rationing and identity cards ended in the early 1950s, and continued to update it until 1991. It was simply a record of people's names, addresses, and dates of birth - a customer database on paper - nothing more sinister than that.
Obviously NINOs would be of no use to the NHS as they are issued by HMRC for entirely different purposes.
Carol
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Thanks Carol, You are right, guess I should have said National Health Service Numbers. I wonder why these are not annotated on the register.
The more I learn about this, the more surprising it becomes. By 1989 there would have been 50 years worth of new-borns not included on the register so its usefulness must have deteriorated year on year. Someone must have thought this was appropriate use of NHS manpower ..............
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By 1989 there would have been 50 years worth of new-borns not included on the register
No reason why there shouldn't have been a parallel register of those born after the original 1939 register was completed...
My ID number - I was born in 1944 - became my NHS number until they were replaced in 1995/6. From wikipaedia: the previous system founded on wartime identity card numbers which in England and Wales used letters and digits.. I can still remember mine entirely [sad I know] & it was 4 letters + 3 integers.
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You are right, guess I should have said National Health Service Numbers. I wonder why these are not annotated on the register.
The NHS did not start until 1948. ???
As the register already had a reference number allocated to everyone listed I doubt it would be necessary to add another reference
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The Register is a snapshot of everyone living in England and Wales on 29 September 1939 (except those already in the armed forces).
Details of anyone born later, plus those who were missed from the first list, were written into additional books which have not been released.
Carol
Added - I believe this information is freely available on FindMyPast.
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For births after 29 September 1939 each birth register book was assigned a unique 4-letter code, and each birth has an entry number. This ensured that each newborn had a unique 4-letter, 3-number identity card number, which later became their NHS number.
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This ensured that each newborn had a unique 4-letter, 3-number identity card number, which later became their NHS number.
On a letter I have seen dated 2017 for someone born 1948 - their NHS number is 10 numbers no letters :-\
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Rosie that's because everyone's number has been changed to a 10 digit one. Maybe from 1992 when the Register stopped?
I haven't a clue what mine or my children's are but I know the original ones!
In fact when asked I always give my original one too!
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I once spoke to someone who had been involved in the project to computerise the database; he told me that the existing numbers were in so many different letter and number formats that it was simpler to scrap them all and start again.
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Does anyone have any idea what Ref C/H EX means on the 1939 Register?
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Any ideas? She died in 2004 and her will says she was a spinster.
The register had her maiden name of McDonald crossed through in red and altered to Wilkinson which has also been crossed through and altered back to McDonald. Thanks!
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Presumably "RG's Letter" refers to a letter from the Registrar General?
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Presumably "RG's Letter" refers to a letter from the Registrar General?
That would be my assumption (but we all know assume puts an ass before u and me ....)
I wondered if there had been some form of "marriage" that was then deemed to be invalid but I have drawn a blank in searching for such a thing. There is no likely candidate for a McDonald - Wilkinson marriage in the GRO index but an invalid marriage may have been removed from the index anyway.
I have written to the people named in Bessie's will but had no response, perhaps they have moved or don't want to know or have another reason for not responding.
I usually get a 50% response rate to letters of enquiry which isn't too bad :) One of the people named in the will married at least twice although I can't find a birth certificate for her. Perhaps a copy of one of her marriage certificates would provide more information. I just love doing jigsaw puzzles with missing pieces!!!!!
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The National Archives has a search facility for RG letter codes but I can't find that one so far. I might have put in the wrong letters/numbers. Have you got a clearer image or maybe someone might be able to read it.
Add - if it's CS/xxx , it could be Change of Surname
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The National Archives has a search facility for RG letter codes but I can't find that one so far. I might have put in the wrong letters/numbers. Have you got a clearer image or maybe someone might be able to read it.
Add - if it's CS/xxx , it could be Change of Surname
Thanks, the image is the clearest one I have :( I read the code as CS/3748 (change of surname 3 July 1948???) but it could also be C3 or C5. The first change to Wilkinson I would have thought would normally be a marriage but so far I have not found a marriage in England and Wales or Scotland.
Bessie was born 10 July 1913 and died 31 July 2004. She was the daughter of Alick Bates McDonald and Lilian Deacon. She had a sister named Margaret, born 1912 and died 1944.
Bessie's estate was administered by Elizabeth Anderson Haughey (previously Emerton and before that McDonald) but I don't know the relationship between Bessie and Elizabeth and I have not found a birth record for Elizabeth so perhaps one of Elizabeth's marriage certificates might give a clue as to her age and possibly her father.
The closed entry on the register would also possibly help of course but I don't know who that could be or if that person is connected to the family - I would guess at a child of Bessie or her sister Margaret but it is only a guess.
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I've just looked at the original again and see that there is a closed record below Bessie's entry. I wonder if the correction might have referred to that entry originally and was then crossed out. Could it have been Margaret? Although, if she died in 1944, the record would have been revealed.
Just a thought.
Gadget
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I've just looked at the original again and see that there is a closed record below Bessie's entry. I wonder if the correction might have referred to that entry originally and was then crossed out. Could it have been Margaret? Although, if she died in 1944, the record would have been revealed.
Just a thought.
Gadget
It's a real puzzle. As Margaret was the elder I would have expected her to be listed before Bessie. Also Margaret's probate states she is a spinster. Her mother, Lilian was appointed the Grant of Letters of Administration and the estate was valued at £277-0-1 on 7 May 1945.
I haven't found Margaret on the 1939 Register but she could have been almost anywhere in the world at that time and Margaret McDonald is not an uncommon name. I also wonder if the redacted entry would be for a child of Bessie or Margaret.
I think I will get one of the marriage certificates of the person named in Bessie's will so I have any information contained there - what's the betting the age is given as "full" or "over 21" and the father's name is left blank????? However I think the named person is probably a grand-daughter given the dates of marriage.
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I have found in two instances where a woman later re married the new surname is written in green above her name. One of these was in the 1980s! The other was in 1965 and it has 1/2 M/C written then the date 28.11.66, followed by NR no idea what that means as I looked up the marriage and it was 1965. Its a great help though.
Hi
I've read through this post but can't find the explanation for 1/2 m/c. I've read on one site that m/c was medical card. Was the answer to this ever found, please?
Thanks.
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Just found an old thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=749867.msg5977684#msg5977684
1/2MC has been suggested as half married couples' ration allowance :-\
add - but questionable :-\
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Also - by Goggling:
Deciphering the annotations and notes in the Register
The 1939 Register is littered with annotations and notes. There has been no master index made of the abbreviations and code letters used and as the books were annotated by a lot of different people for about 60 years, for a variety of purposes we may never know the meaning of all the scribbles. However many we have been able to decipher.
NR = National Register
CR = Central Register
I/D = Identity Card
M/C = Medical Card
From a piece in FamilySearch - link only opens in word so can't give the link
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From a piece in FamilySearch - link only opens in word so can't give the link
You'll need something that understands .docx files once you've downloaded it, of course, but this is the link:
https://familysearch.brightspotcdn.com/7a/0e/c8cf0edd4729b4cd56309ada9c29/1939-register-handout.docx
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I have Microsoft Office, which is why I could quote from it.
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I apologise if this cvered elsewhere, but I have found a female relative on the 39 register, but it appears the info is a s the 31 census (DoBs etc) Also, what does MIC and DPL mean please?
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I have Microsoft Office, which is why I could quote from it.
Naturally. You couldn't provide the link, so I posted it to help out with source attribution :)
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;D
I thought you were telling me how to access it!
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Also - by Goggling:
Deciphering the annotations and notes in the Register
The 1939 Register is littered with annotations and notes. There has been no master index made of the abbreviations and code letters used and as the books were annotated by a lot of different people for about 60 years, for a variety of purposes we may never know the meaning of all the scribbles. However many we have been able to decipher.
NR = National Register
CR = Central Register
I/D = Identity Card
M/C = Medical Card
From a piece in FamilySearch - link only opens in word so can't give the link
Hi
Medical card makes sense considering the register was linked to the NHS. Not sure about half married couple's ration allowance as the 1/2 m/c entry I've been looking at was dated 1976. Perhaps a new doctor's card was issued with a change in surname or address which required the register to be updated. 1/2 still a puzzle though.
Thank you.
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I apologise if this cvered elsewhere, but I have found a female relative on the 39 register, but it appears the info is a s the 31 census (DoBs etc) Also, what does MIC and DPL mean please?
I don't understand your reference to the 1931 census - that census was destroyed by fire and no longer exists. Columns 7 and 8 of the 1939 Register record each person's date of birth.
'DPL' is the district code for Luton, there are no codes that start with "M" so you would need to give a context to be able to guess what it might be in reference to. Many of the codes remain known only to the government officials who updated the records.
Debra :)
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I apologise if this cvered elsewhere, but I have found a female relative on the 39 register, but it appears the info is a s the 31 census (DoBs etc) Also, what does MIC and DPL mean please?
I don't understand your reference to the 1931 census - that census was destroyed by fire and no longer exists. Columns 7 and 8 of the 1939 Register record each person's date of birth.
'DPL' is the district code for Luton, there are no codes that start with "M" so you would need to give a context to be able to guess what it might be in reference to. Many of the codes remain known only to the government officials who updated the records.
Debra :)
Also - by Goggling:
Deciphering the annotations and notes in the Register
The 1939 Register is littered with annotations and notes. There has been no master index made of the abbreviations and code letters used and as the books were annotated by a lot of different people for about 60 years, for a variety of purposes we may never know the meaning of all the scribbles. However many we have been able to decipher.
NR = National Register
CR = Central Register
I/D = Identity Card
M/C = Medical Card
From a piece in FamilySearch - link only opens in word so can't give the link
Hi
Medical card makes sense considering the register was linked to the NHS. Not sure about half married couple's ration allowance as the 1/2 m/c entry I've been looking at was dated 1976. Perhaps a new doctor's card was issued with a change in surname or address which required the register to be updated. 1/2 still a puzzle though.
Thank you.
I wonder if MIC that PJW asked about, might be M/C as per the above quote?
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It could well be, Ruskie. As the additions are all written in by hand, a / can often look like an I.
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It could well be, Ruskie. As the additions are all written in by hand, a / can often look like an I.
Life would be so much simpler if all handwritten documents were written in a uniform way, perhaps capitals which tend to be pretty much the same whatever style of handwriting. But then what would we do. I guess it would take away the joy of the hunt. LOL. ;D ;D
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Hello
I think I fell foul of the copyright issue on my first attempt at posting in here (should have read the FAQ/sticky's first!).
I have an entry that i'm currently looking into where a males surname name has been crossed out and replaced with an alternative surname. Its unclear as to why this has happened, however the annotation B.C. I.E. or B.C. I.C appears in red ink. Does anybody have any suggestions as to what this could be?
Within the probate, both surnames was declared, and I have found a possible burial site under his alternative name rather than expected!
Thanks in advance
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There weren't any standardised minor abbreviations but I'd think that B C would be birth certificate. I.E could be In Error and, if C. maybe Change or.....................??
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Hello
I think I fell foul of the copyright issue on my first attempt at posting in here (should have read the FAQ/sticky's first!).
I have an entry that i'm currently looking into where a males surname name has been crossed out and replaced with an alternative surname. Its unclear as to why this has happened, however the annotation B.C. I.E. or B.C. I.C appears in red ink. Does anybody have any suggestions as to what this could be?
Within the probate, both surnames was declared, and I have found a possible burial site under his alternative name rather than expected!
Thanks in advance
Hi
Where I can't offer an answer to the initials I would consider any number of reasons for the name change. Maybe the person was adopted, illegitimate having been given the step father's name and later found out the birth name, change of name to start a new life. Perhaps the initials are for birth certificate and identity change. I have come across people who maybe weren't aware the father wasn't the biological father and took the step father's name and later discovered their actual surname. Another ancestor left his family, changed his name and started a new family.
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Thanks for your pointers :) Birth Cert Identity check/error make sense in this context
I also thought if it was IC, it could also be identify card?
I will order what I expect to be his death and marriage certs as maybe more clues in them.
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Thanks for your pointers :) Birth Cert Identity check/error make sense in this context
I also thought if it was IC, it could also be identify card?
I will order what I expect to be his death and marriage certs as maybe more clues in them.
Hi
Yes, of course, id card would fit. I hope you solve the mystery. Sometimes it's not what you expect. I've become accustomed to considering the unexpected. Good luck.
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Can any tell me what a red asterisk / star next to a name might mean? I can find an entry with a matching first name and dob, but different surname, and I can't find a marriage certificate to match the two people.
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Can I jump on this please?
This is my grandfather's 1939 entry. His birth date was 16/6/1909, which is confirmed by his birth certificate, my mum, and the initial 1939 register.
I'm reading this annotation as "birth day correct", "birth month should be September", "birth year correct" and then the initials of NJH and the date the "correction" was made. But that's obviously wrong.
Or does NJH have another meaning? (Could just about be NJA)
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It looks like that was the date the annotation was made, and the intials refer to the district office where the amendment was made.
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the intials refer to the district office where the amendment was made.
Heres the full list https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/1939-register-enumeration-districts
NJA was the code for Manchester.
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Thanks. So it's the district where a change was made rather than the individual.
Still extremely odd that he'd cause someone to think he was three months younger. Who knows why. He was somewhat a man of mystery.
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Hello
I think I fell foul of the copyright issue on my first attempt at posting in here (should have read the FAQ/sticky's first!).
I have an entry that i'm currently looking into where a males surname name has been crossed out and replaced with an alternative surname. Its unclear as to why this has happened, however the annotation B.C. I.E. or B.C. I.C appears in red ink. Does anybody have any suggestions as to what this could be?
Within the probate, both surnames was declared, and I have found a possible burial site under his alternative name rather than expected!
Thanks in advance
Just to follow up on this, I didn't find out what the initials stood for officially, however, 'Birth Cert Identity error / check' fits very well in this case.
Essentially he was born with the surname 'CORNS', but was raised with the name 'COATES', and only found out much later in life.
illegitimate having been given the step father's name and later found out the birth name
In a nut shell this, although he was told he was fathered by a man from his mother's previous marriage rather than a forward marriage which never made sense due to the dates of death/birth!
I documented the story here on find a grave page: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/251841380/george-william-coates_or_corns
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I have green writing with BLP for Rossendale Lancashire, could not find what BLP means ???
BS
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Can anyone explain the annotations 'WAFS D1(or DI)' please? This was alongside my gran who was shown as being at the Tollington Park central school sub-station in Islington.
Thank you.
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Any idea what this means?
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Medical card makes sense considering the register was linked to the NHS. Not sure about half married couple's ration allowance as the 1/2 m/c entry I've been looking at was dated 1976. Perhaps a new doctor's card was issued with a change in surname or address which required the register to be updated. 1/2 still a puzzle though.
I have just found one with 1/2 M/C with date of 27 11 56 and HR which I presume were the initials of the person who entered the code.
The person was a married woman who in 1939 was recorded as "Rosina M" and the alteration in the same colour just says "Rosina May", so it looks like they were just changing her middle initial to her full second forename.
She was born 15 Aug 1894, so she would be 62 when the alteration was made - doesn't sound like a significant age. She wasn't widowed until 1972, she never remarried after being widowed and died in 1977.
The only thing I can think of is that she moved house in 1956 and registered with a new doctor and someone decided to update the register then with her full name.
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Does anyone have any idea what these connotations mean next to my great-uncle name? this is the last record we have of him so we would love to know what they mean to see if they can help us find out what happened to him. thanks.