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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: Rezillo on Monday 29 February 16 09:58 GMT (UK)
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In an old (2007) Rootschat thread, there was a reference to someone researching the Framlingham Wightmans. Does anyone have any current contact details for such a person, please?
I'm currently at an impasse with a Deborah Wightman of Framlingham, who has only an 'age at death' reference to her birth date (that I suspect was guessed) and no marriage record found so far. She is wrongly identified as Deborah Last by Ancestry members.
Edmund Webster and Deborah Wightman (aka Whiteman/Wighting/Whiting, according to the print version of the Suffolk Baptism Index for their children in the SRO) brought up a family at Framlingham in the late 18th/early 19thC. They appear to have been poor, with at least one child apprenticed by the parish guardians to a Framlingham carrier - interestingly, a Samuel Wightman. Deborah's 1833 funeral appears to have been billed to the parish guardians and their gravestone in the churchyard there appears to be of a standard beyond their means, perhaps paid for by the parish.
I'm equally at an impasse with Edmund, other than knowing he was a bellringer, assumed at Framlingham church, since 1784. There's an illegible verse about his bellringing on his gravestone but I know what it was originally, as it was transcribed in an 1882 newspaper article!
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was it this one
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=237166.msg1279512#msg1279512
if so you could send Oz Kim a PM
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As marriage hasn't been found just wondering how you know her name was Wightman.
Annette
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Her maiden name is in the SRO/SFHS print version of the baptism records of her children, with various spellings, as per my original post. "Son of Edmund and Deborah Webster, late Wightman" etc. Wightman\Whiteman is the most consistent of them. I'm going to look at the fiches later to see just what the spellings look like.
The Findmypast index for the same births does not have the mother's maiden name and it looks like people have been searching elsewhere for year matches. Someone in Ancestry has assigned a Deborah Last whose baptism date is, to the day, the same as a Deborah Last of Aldeburgh (who appears to marry, not checked, a John Broom in 1778 at Aldeburgh). This has then been copied to other trees - the usual Ancestry problem. One of Edmund and Deborah Webster's sons, who dies at Thornham Magna, is on most Ancestry trees as dying in Cheshire!
I've found out in the last few days that one Webster family line has an anecdote of their grandfather being told as a child that they were descended from Whitemans of Framlingham but they had no knowledge of when or who this ancestor was. One of Deborah's children is apprenticed to a carter, Samuel Wightman, possibly related but that may be coincidence as it is the parish guardians who do this, on the grounds the Webster family cannot support him
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Thank you for explaining, Rezillo. I know exactly what you mean re. Ancestry trees.
Hope you manage to unravel it all.
Annette
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Having checked the microfiche records, Deborah's maiden name in her childrens birth records is various spellings of Whiting, Whiteman and Wightman. There are clear links between the children with her as Wightman and Whiting while married to Edmund Webster so I'm reasonably confident that they are all the same person, especially imagining how Whiting might sound in a broad Suffolk accent!
The earliest children are with her as Whiting. I've found a marriage record online for Deborah Whiting and Edward Webster of Framlingham at Athelington in 1784. This sounds quite promising if Edward is a transcription error for Edmund - I'll have to check at SRO.
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1. Edward WEBSTER was born in 1755. He died in Jun 1834 at the age of 79 in Framlingham, Suffolk. He was buried on 15 Jun 1834 in St Michael Churchyard, Framlingham, Suffolk.
Edward WEBSTER and Deborah WHITING were married on 24 Feb 1784 in St Peter, Athelington, Suffolk. Edmund was recorded in the marriage register as "of Framlingham"
Marriage witnessed by Joseph Sadd & Elizabeth Styles Deborah WHITING was born in 1754. She died in Nov 1833 at the age of 79 in Framlingham, Suffolk. She was buried on 28 Nov 1833 in St Michael Churchyard, Framlingham, Suffolk.
Edward WEBSTER and Deborah WHITING had the following children:
+2 i. Edmund WEBSTER, born Jul 1787, Framlingham, Suffolk; married Elizabeth PEAK, 13 Oct 1808, St Michael, Framlingham, Suffolk; died Sep 1839, Framlingham, Suffolk.
+3 ii. Joshua WEBSTER, born May 1790, Framlingham, Suffolk; married Hannah SMITH, 4 Dec 1836, St Michael, Framlingham, Suffolk.
+4 iii. Jesse WEBSTER, born Dec 1791, Framlingham, Suffolk; married Martha KEMP, 30 May 1817, St Michael, Framlingham, Suffolk; died Aug 1869, Framlingham, Suffolk.
5 iv. Michael WEBSTER was born in Dec 1793 in Framlingham, Suffolk. He was baptized on 28 Dec 1793 in St Michael, Framlingham, Suffolk.
+6 v. Elizabeth WEBSTER, born Apr 1796, Framlingham, Suffolk; married John PIERCE or PURSE, 21 Aug 1817, St Mary, Dennington, Suffolk.
7 vi. Abraham WEBSTER was born in Apr 1798 in Framlingham, Suffolk. He was baptized on 1 Apr 1798 in St Michael, Framlingham, Suffolk. He died in Aug 1798 at the age of 0 in Framlingham, Suffolk.
+8 vii. Samuel WEBSTER, born Aug 1799, Framlingham, Suffolk; married Lucy CREASEY, 16 Apr 1823, St Mary, Framsden, Suffolk.
+9 viii. Isaac WEBSTER, born Aug 1803, Framlingham, Suffolk; married Elizabeth COOK, 6 Jul 1823, St Michael, Framlingham, Suffolk; died Mar 1897, Wayland Registration District, Norfolk.
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There's also an earlier Elizabeth Webster b1785 at Stradbroke (up the road from Athelington), parents Edward and Deborah. She may have died at Framlingham in 1789.
Deborah's birth year is a problem as she would have been 50 when she gave birth to her last child. I suspect her age at death was largely a guess.
Edmund and Deborahs's gravestone is right by the main entrance to Framlingham churchyard. It is quite a substantial one and an inscription area is worn off but fortunately it was recorded in a 19thC newspaper article. It was a verse about Edmund being a bellringer at the church. I left a copy of this article in the church's grave index book a couple of years ago but I don't know if it is still there.
The church paid for Deborah's funeral (the bill is in the SRO) and presumably paid for the gravestone, as it is evident the couple were poor. The church also sorted out several apprenticeships for their children, again these are in the SRO.
Samuel's brother Joshua was apprenticed to a shoemaker at Framsden who had an issue with residence rights there. Joshua then had to apply for settlement rights at Framlingham in 1811 and in 1834 a Joshua Webster was jailed for causing a disturbance at the poor house (in the castle). Samuel went to Framsden, though, before dying at Thornham Magna in 1857 as a 'miller of Thornham and Framsden'. He founded a kind of milling dynasty with sons as millers at Framsden, Pattiswick and High Easter.
Jesse - lived in Framlingham but died in 1839. He was still indentured after his marriage.
Joshua - got stuck with him, with little found after his poor house antics.
Michael - a blacksmith at South Weald. joined in 1851 census by brother Samuel's son Michael, with some interesting spellings of Framlingham!
Elizabeth - farmer's wife at Dennington
Abraham - infant death
Isaac - lived in Framlingham but moved late in life to Sussex to daughter Emma's family.
There is a Webster family story that Sam Webster b1877 was told by his father that they were descended from Whitemans.
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Many of the Wightman family worked over the ages as shoemakers, cobblers & cordwainers too?
I believe that the youngest child born to Edmund & Deborah Wester was Isaac born in1803?
I also believe that the Wightman family from Cretingham & Dennington were well known campanologists before WW2
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I haven't really got much further with Deborah. Yes, there are a lot of Wightmans/Whitemans in the Framlingham area but the only birth I've found even close is for a Deborah Whiting as the illegitimate daughter of Eleanor at Burston, 10 miles from Stradbroke, in 1760.
Their eldest son Edmund was first indentured to James Garrod of Stradbroke, which supports an area connection with Framlingham.
Jesse was removed from Leiston to Framlingham in 1817 as having no settlement rights. He married at Framlingham in the same year.
The cordwainer that Joshua was apprenticed to was John Ling.
Isaac Webster was apprenticed by the parish to Samuel Wightman of Framlingham, a carrier. in 1817. He was a 'poor child of 14 years'.
Samuel and Lucy's gravestone is in Thornham Magna churchyard.
Any more info gratefully received. Joshua is a minor mystery - he may have a son in 1825, son of Joshua and Margaret.
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I have a Jesse Wightman china cup and saucer which would have been sold from his shop in Well Close Square, glass, china, grocer and draper.
John Wightman was a joiner living in Double Street.
Jonathan Wightman was a Malster living in Well Close Square.
Samuel Wightman was a tailor living in Double Street.
Samuel Wightman Cabinet Maker (broker).
Jonathan Wightman a farmer at Wormwood Hills.
Taken from White's Framlingham 1844 when husband's ancestors were blacksmiths in the town.
SM
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Edmund and Deborahs's gravestone is right by the main entrance to Framlingham churchyard. It is quite a substantial one and an inscription area is worn off but fortunately it was recorded in a 19thC newspaper article. It was a verse about Edmund being a bellringer at the church. I left a copy of this article in the church's grave index book a couple of years ago but I don't know if it is still there.
I visted the church a few days ago, sadly the article you mention is not in the grave index book. I was full of expectation to see it and was disappointed not to be able to see it. Are you able to share it with us here please?
Philip
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Perhaps you could try & get hold of a copy of "History of the Wightman Family" by Bryan l'Anson?
This book was privately published at the end of WW1.
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This is part of a larger article that appears to be number 9 of a series. It is a shame the article has gone as it has several other Framlingham gravestones similarly transcribed
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Ipswich Journal 11 July 1882
The graveyards of Suffolk with ancient and modern epitaphs.
What may be termed a professional epitaph is that over the grave of "Edmund Webster" whose chiming proclivities during a long life were not forgotten after his death, which took place June 8th, 1834, aged 79 years. His epitaph at one corner of Framlingham churchyard is as follows:
In the year seventeen hundred and eighty four
To chime he did begin,
And constant with rising companies
He many years was seen.
His last great peal for a wedding was,
Which he performed with glee,
So the years he was a chimer,
Above you may plainly see.
The above is evidently truthful and to the point, though it does not say much for the poetic talent of the writer.
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Being a bellringer probably explains the rather grand gravestone for a family that seems to have been poor. Deborah's funeral bills were paid by the church (original document in the Record Office). The church also seems to have secured the indenture of at least some of the family's children to respectable Framlingham businessmen.
Deborah's surname is recorded in the baptism records for her children as Whiting, Wighting, Wightman and Whiteman. A Deborah Whiting of Athelington married an Edward Webster of Framlingham at Athelington in 1784, the year that the above epitaph has as the start of of his bellringing career. They had a daughter Elizabeth baptised at Stradbroke in 1785 who may have died at Framlingham in 1789. I was hoping the recent baptism cd release by SFHS that covers 18thC Framlingham might cast some light on Edmund/Edward's origins but he is not listed there.
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Thank you both so much for sharing that and also for the suggestion about Bryan's book.
It was wonderful to go to the church and see the places they knew themselves so well. I attach a photo of the grave taken by me just a few days ago.
Philip
By the way, Edmund and Deborah are my 4 x Great Grandparents. I am descended from their daughter Elizabeth and her husband John Pearce, thence their son William Pearce and his wife Emma nee Pallant and then their daughter Harriett. Families of Dennington and Peasenhall.
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My line is via Edmund's son, Samuel. Samuel was a (tenant) miller at Framsden by 1851. The census has him as a master miller employing one man and one boy. Shortly afterwards, he took over the mill at Thornham Magna. His death there in 1857 forced a sale of all his possessions, which must have been bought by loan. The sale notices referred to him as a "farmer and miller of Stoke Ash and Thornham and also of Framsden".
Samuel's son, Edmund, briefly took over the running of the mill at Framsden (Framsden had two mills but this is assumed to be the current one). Edmund made a hash of things and his involvement with the mill did not last long. Evicted from his house by Lord Tollemache and involved in at least one fight at the local pub! His son, also Edmund, was much more successful, as was his son Sam, who went on to run Debenham mill and Hill Farm at Debenham.
The mill passed into Webster ownership in 1879, hence the name of Websters Mill, even though the Webster family had been involved with running it, with some gaps, some years beforehand.
For me, the interesting feature of these families is that although the trees of the later Framsden millers and my own diverge in the early 19thC, the family ties were still strong enough in the 1930s for my mother to spend summers recuperating from illness at Sam Webster's farm at Debenham.
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Published in 1834, Green's history of Framlingham is a little too early for the Websters but there are several members of the Wightman family in the churchyard inscriptions on page 170 of the attached extracts from Google Books (https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/_/dz4QAAAAYAAJ?hl=en).
David