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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: hereford on Monday 29 February 16 21:37 GMT (UK)

Title: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Monday 29 February 16 21:37 GMT (UK)
Hi I was wondering if someone could tell me how I can go about getting copies of B D M certificates. I contacted Archives Australia and they said unable to do this on their site. Many thanks Hereford.
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: Billyblue on Monday 29 February 16 22:09 GMT (UK)
Each state in Australia has jurisdiction over its own BDM records, and costs of obtaining certificates.
Have a look on the Australia Resources board for details.

If you are searching in NSW, their historical certificates are available as transcriptions via one of their transcription agents, at lower cost than actual certiicates. 

Dawn M
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: majm on Tuesday 01 March 16 01:19 GMT (UK)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=574209.0 
(Live link to Fact Sheet from National Archives of Australia)

Please remember too that each of those eight separate jurisdictions that Dawn mentions has their own  legislative power to restrict access to non historic records. 

So for example in New South Wales, members of the general public cannot access:
birth registrations of less than one hundred years ago
marriage registrations of less than fifty years ago
death registrations of less than thirty years ago.

Here is the live link to the Australia Resources board  :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/
within that are the live links to the child boards for each of the eight jurisdictions.


Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 01 March 16 02:27 GMT (UK)

From an earlier post I think you are researching this family, married Victoria?

HONAN  Michael      m.   HEFFERNAN   Winefred   Reg. year1841   Reg. no142
HONAN  Michael      m.   HEFFERNAN   Winefred   Reg. year1841   Reg. no35314

births VICTORIA
HONAN Mary   
parents Michael   / Winifred (HEFFERNAN)   Reg. year1842   Reg. no478

HORAN Honora   
parents Michael   / Winifrid (HEFFERNAN)   Reg. year1844   Reg. no274

HORAN Honora   
parents Michael   / Winifrid (HEFFERNAN)   Reg. year1844   no37451

HONAN  Anastasia   
parents Michael   / Winifred (HEFFORN)     Reg. year1846   Reg. no39268

HONAN Anastatia   
parents Michael   / Winifred (HEFFERIN)   Reg. year1846   Reg. no1556

HONAN Ellen   
parents Michael   / Winifred (HEFFRIN)           Reg. year1849   Reg. no34884

I think that an 1841 marriage certificate would have little detail, so might not be of much use to you?


Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: majm on Tuesday 01 March 16 02:55 GMT (UK)
I agree Wivenhoe,  prior to civil registration, very little information on those official records.  As Victoria was not hived off from NSW until 1851,  Checking for the date of the event of NSW BDM's Early church records (those with "V" in the registration number) can help with some of the early Vic registrations.  It is now possible to deduce the dates using that option at the online index at NSW BDM.   

http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: jamxr on Tuesday 01 March 16 03:05 GMT (UK)
Victoria   http://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/home/family+history/

NSW   http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx

Queensland    https://www.qld.gov.au/law/births-deaths-marriages-and-divorces/family-history-research/

What you can expect to see on Australian Historical BDM certificates
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Tuesday 01 March 16 03:26 GMT (UK)
I have found out that they were married NSW and I have sent of for the certificate. Hopefully I wont be too disappointed. Thanks for the info that is coming through. hereford
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: judb on Tuesday 01 March 16 03:33 GMT (UK)
Previous threads re the HONAN/HEFFERNAN family - is this the family you are looking for??

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=742730

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=709852

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=624357.9

Judith
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: majm on Tuesday 01 March 16 03:37 GMT (UK)
Hi there,

If you have sent away for a document for a marriage prior to the commencement of civil registration you may well be disappointed with the lack of family history on the NSW BDM record.   Civil registration commenced 1 March 1856.   

Please provide the names of the bride and groom.

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Tuesday 01 March 16 03:51 GMT (UK)
Names are Michael Honan and Winnifred Heffernan
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: majm on Tuesday 01 March 16 04:07 GMT (UK)
Thanks,

Michael HONAN, obtained his Ticket of Leave in 1839 (39/1808), and was allowed to remain in the District of Braidwood.  He had been tried at Waterford and arrived on the Hero in 1835.  He was a labourer.     He received his Certificate of Freedom 15 September 1841. (41/1267)   

It is possible that if the marriage was prior to that date (15 Sept 1841)  that the clergy MAY have noted the ship of arrival on the parish register.    The District of Braidwood did not include the Port Phillip District, so I am surprised to see that the 1841 marriage is listed as in the  “LR”  district.   This is for a Roman Catholic ceremony recorded in the parish register of St Francis, Melbourne.  Of course the Certificate of Freedom fully emancipated Michael HONAN, so from 15 Sept 1841 there was no requirement that he remain Braidwood. 

NSW BDM reference is for Volume 91, line 1077 of 1841
Names are Michael Honan and Winnifred Heffernan

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: judb on Tuesday 01 March 16 04:17 GMT (UK)
You may already have this
Michael apparently died in the Liverpool Asylum for the Infirm and Destitute in 1893, although I cannot see a death index entry for him in NSW.

Register of Inmates 1868-Apr 1889, Apr 1889-Sep 1890,
Liverpool Asylum for the Infirm and Destitute


Michael HONAN, 80, RC
Irishman, ship "Hero", 1835, labourer, born Waterford, widower, 3 children
Admitted 1 Sep 1886, discharged 25 September, 1990 "to Macquarie St"
Admitted 13 November 1990, discharged: died 26 February 1893
Name and address of relatives:
Brother in Mogo NSW.  There is another comment which I can't read - xxxx of children xxx unknown

Government Asylums for the Infirm and Destitute
Register of Inmates C-D, H-J, K-M, 1880-Nov 1896


Michael HONAN, 80
The information on this register is the same as the one above although I an read the reference to children:
Three children, residence unknown

There is an earlier register showing that he had been admitted to the Liverpool Asylum for the Infirm and Destitute, 8 February 1883 and discharged 18 February 1886, again the record mentions his ship of arrival Hero.

Judith
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: judb on Tuesday 01 March 16 04:21 GMT (UK)
TROVE has quite a few mentions of Patrick HONAN's family in Mogo.

Judith
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Tuesday 01 March 16 05:29 GMT (UK)
Hey thank you all for this information. It is all pieces in a puzzle.Is Trove a roots chat member? Hereford.

Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: majm on Tuesday 01 March 16 05:33 GMT (UK)
Hi,

As you are based in NZ, you will be familiar with Papers Past.   http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast

Well, Trove is like papers past, only it is for Australian Newspapers, and much much more..

http://trove.nla.gov.au/

So the NZ National Library handles Papers Past and the Australian National Library handles Trove.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=p&p=about&e=-------10--1----0--
and
http://help.nla.gov.au/trove/trove-support-zones

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Tuesday 01 March 16 05:53 GMT (UK)
Thanks i will take a look at the paper.  hereford
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 01 March 16 05:58 GMT (UK)


I think you are descended from Anastasia  HONAN?

Can you please say what you know about her....marriage...children....death
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: judb on Tuesday 01 March 16 06:39 GMT (UK)
Sorry, hereford, I shouldn't make assumptions!

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/

Mogo is a small town/village south of Batemans Bay on the south coast of NSW, about 300k south of Sydney and 20k north of Moruya.

Braidwood, which is inland, about 70k from Mogo, was mentioned as one of the places the HONANs went to.  In the early days wool, wheat and other farm produce from the Braidwood area was sent by a precipitous mountain track to Moruya and then on to Sydney by sea.

Mogo is mostly a touristy place now but there is an old gold mine which is open to the public.  Have a look on Googlemap and with google.

It seems that Patrick was quite well-known in the area according to the TROVE reports.

Have you found a death for Winifred at all?  I had a quick look but couldn't see anything.  Quite a sad lonely ending for Michael.

Judith

Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Tuesday 01 March 16 09:02 GMT (UK)
Information about Anastasia Honan.  Born  17th Dec 1845 Parents Michael Honan and Winnifred Heffernan.Born Goulburn married oliver Dawson aged 18 heathcote Victoria Sailed to NZ not sure when but would have been before 1868. One son William Oliver Dawson born in Australia 1866.Lived in Blue spur Lawrence until her death in 1901 at Blue Spur aged 58. Had 8 children one being my Great Grandfather. Buried in the Lawrence Cemetary. Hereford.
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: majm on Tuesday 01 March 16 09:02 GMT (UK)
Hi there,

I think Michael's death certificate may not give much help with the family history information.  At the NSW BDM online index there's a death registered for a Michael HONAN, with both parents given names as unknown.  The death is registered in the Liverpool district.  It is ref #8322.  The deduced date is 26 Feb 1893.

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Tuesday 01 March 16 09:10 GMT (UK)
Hi Just have to keep trying to piece everything together and then one day more information will come to light. Thanks Herefrod.
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: judb on Tuesday 01 March 16 11:32 GMT (UK)
i think the only family information known about Michael at his death is that contained in the Asylum registers as I mentioned above - Michael is a widower, has brother in Mogo and 3 children whose current addresses were unknown.

Do you have any info re the death of Winifred?

Judith
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Tuesday 01 March 16 17:16 GMT (UK)
No information about her death at this stage.
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: rosball on Tuesday 01 March 16 21:13 GMT (UK)
Do you have the deceased estate file for Patrick HONAN who died in Mogo and duty paid in 1895?

I see he left a will so there should be a probate packet http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13870417
as well as the deceased estate file.   (It is in the "gap years" for the online probate index but I can find it on microfiche when I am there)  The probate packets usually have more info and possibly certs.

I am happy to photograph these for you next time I am there if you wish.

regards,
   Ros
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Tuesday 01 March 16 21:40 GMT (UK)
Thank you Rosball I would really appreciate that . Hereford
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 02 March 16 01:22 GMT (UK)

births VICTORIA
HONAN Mary   parents Michael   / Winifred (HEFFERNAN)   Reg. year1842   Reg. no478

I think this is Mary HONAN, sister of your Anastasia........all Victoria BDM, online index..

marriage 
Mary HONEN   marr.  Patrick GILFOYLE     1860 / Reg. 1901

birth
GILFOYLE   Mary    1864
parents Patrick A / Mary (Honan)   Reg. year1864   Reg. no6009

death
GILFOYLE   Mary     1868            Reg. no2652
parents HONAN Michael   25 years born KILM

death
GUILFOYLE  Pat Alex   1898      Reg. no14275
parents GUILFOYLE Antony   / Margt (FENERTY)       76 years  died WHALLA

Probate file for Patrick Alexander GUILFOYLE d. 4 July 1898
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54

has eldest daughter Letitia RUTTER as executor, names Mary RUST, wife of George RUST, of Carlton, as daughter, and notes wife (of Patrick) died thirty two years earlier.

   
marriage 1881   Reg. no477
GILFOYLE   Lettetia   marr.    RUTTER   William James      

marriage 1889   Reg. no7098
GILFOYLE   Pollie  marr.    RUST   Geo   Reg. year1889   

death 1918    Reg. 6337
RUTTER Lettestio
parents GUILFOYLE  Pat Alexr / Mary (HORNAN)    58 years  died Pt Melb

death  1950   Reg. no23848
RUST   Mary Gilfoyle   
parents GILFOYLE Harry / Mary (Unknown)     87 years born Walhalla  died Traralgon

I think the 1860 marriage certificate for Mary HONEN would be useful to you. You need to see how Mary names her parents, also the names of witnesses. 
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 02 March 16 02:24 GMT (UK)
NZ BDM births
1868/34033 DAWSON  Frederick James               parents Ann / Oliver
1870/36515 DAWSON  John William Wills            parents Ann  / Oliver
1873/19751 DAWSON  Annie Elizabeth Ellen        parents Annie / Oliver
1876/6102 DAWSON  Thomas                            parents  Annie / Oliver

death      1901/6443 DAWSON  Annie   58Y

"...Information about Anastasia Honan...married oliver Dawson aged 18 heathcote Victoria...one son William Oliver Dawson born in Australia 1866.....Had 8 children one being my Great Grandfather".

I cannot see this marriage or birth in VIC index.

Interesting?
HONAN Anastasa   marr.   HYNES John   1860 /Reg. no1591

What is the source for the information about the marriage, and birth of William Oliver DAWSON 1866.

Can you please name all of the eight children of Annie DAWSON.

Can you please list all the information on the death certificate, 1901 for Annie DAWSON.

Where was Oliver DAWSON born?
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: judb on Wednesday 02 March 16 05:41 GMT (UK)
There are a few public trees for this family but none of them mention Winifred later than the birth of her third daughter, Ellen at Kilmore in 1849.  Many of the trees cite other trees as the source of information so who knows what is correct and what isn't, although some of them are well researched especially regarding the HONAN brothers convict background. There is a mention of Winifred's death as "before 1886" but there is no evidence given.

There is a suggestion that the third HONAN brother, Thomas HONAN, b 1805, died in 1884, Croele Nr Mount Gambier, South Australia, and there is a death which fits but would need to be verified.

None of them has the correct death for Michael.  ::)

Judith

Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Wednesday 02 March 16 09:44 GMT (UK)
Information Anastasia's Death cert  She went by the name Annie.  Died 7th August 1901 at Blue Spur.58yrs old. Died of Apoplexy Parents written as unknown. Buried Lawrence cemetery. Religion Church of England. Married Heathcoat Victoria 18yrs age to Oliver Dawson. 6 males and 2 females living at her death.

William Oliver Dawson from his death cert Died 1928 Born Victoria Married in  Lawrence age 19 to Matilda  Mary Ross 2 sons 4 Daughters living at time of death.62 yrs at his death. States his father as William Oliver Dawson Mother unknown.

So the only source of information I have regarding the marriage  of Annie and Oliver is in the Death cert. Cant find a wedding cert for them or a birth cert for William Oliver.
I have a copy of Anastasia's baptism dated 1846 Birth 1845. If she was married to John Hynes she would have been 15yrs old.
Children noted in Family Bible.
William Oliver Dawson born 1866,Fredrick Dawson born 1868, Mathew H Dawson born 1870, John Michael Dawson 1872, Annie Elizabeth Ellen Dawson  1874,Thomas Dawson 1875 Hugh Dawson 1878 and Joseph Dawson 1882.Hugh and Joseph born at Blue spur and the others apart from William were born at Tuapeka Mouth.

Oliver came from Durham England the youngest son in a family of 7 children Hannah , John Oliver, Hugh, Ann, Jane , Elizabeth and Oliver. John Oliver and Ann died young as well as both parents. Hannah went to the USA with her husband and family.  Jane, Elizabeth and Oliver came to NZ via Australia. They were married and Oliver a young boy. Hannah and her family left quite a few yrs after Oliver and his Sisters left England.Hugh is unknown since about 1860 Jane and Elizabeth were married and Oliver a young boy.

Thanks Hereford.

Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: judb on Wednesday 02 March 16 13:00 GMT (UK)
Please could you transcribe ALL of Anastasia's baptism certificate; sometimes a detail which seems insignificant may give a useful clue.

Judith

Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Wednesday 02 March 16 17:20 GMT (UK)
New South Wales Roman Catholic Baptisms solemnized in the Parish of (No Name) in the county of(No Name) in the year 1846

When baptised-April 22
When born 1845 17th December
Child's Christian Name-Anastasia
Father -Michael Honan
Mother -Winifred Heffornd
Abode  Goulbourn  (a code Printed underneath this is 39268)
sponsers William (Hard to read surname looks like) Dempey and mary Dempy or Denapog
 Cantread the name who performed the ceremony
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: majm on Wednesday 02 March 16 22:57 GMT (UK)
Hi there,

Re Anastasia's baptism.

May I please ask if this is a document obtained from NSW Births, Deaths, Marriages?    Official Transcriptions of NSW BDM documents are prepared under the authority/licence of the NSW BDM and those transcribers are very familiar with the handwriting as they regularly transcribe those records, and have done so for many years.

If you were to take a snip of the section that is hard to decipher, I am sure there's several RChatters who will offer to transcribe. 

Re a possible marriage at age 15.
The various Marriage Acts in the Colonies including not just NSW, but also those colonies that had been administered from NSW at various stages during the 19th Century, include that Girls at age 12 and Boys at age 14 were eligible to marry.  Basically, as those girls and/or boys were not yet 21 years of age, they were not legally old enough for their own voice to be heard (ie they were not yet old enough give their own consent), and so they needed the consent of a responsible adult.   There is, at the NSW BDM website, a sample of a marriage certificate where the bride was aged 11 when she married in 1924, less than 100 years ago....    New Zealand was formally separated from NSW Colonial Administration in about 1840. Victoria was hived off in 1851.

http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/interesting-certificates.aspx
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Documents/m1924-3913.pdf

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: judb on Wednesday 02 March 16 23:46 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the transcription which in this case doesn't help much  :(, and still isn't 100% clear as to whether it's Goulburn in NSW or the Goulburn Valley area in Victoria. However, given the birthplaces for the other children of Winifred and Michael it seems likely that it was in Victoria.

If you are inclined to part with a few more $$ perhaps the marriage certificate for Anastasia HONAN and John HYNES might prove enlightening - who gave consent? Is her father mentioned and what is his occupation and who were the witnesses?

The year of the marriage was 1860 and the registration number is 1591 (saves you having to search for it)
http://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/home/family+history/

Victorian BMDs offer an uncertified image of the original register which can be immediately downloaded for a fee of $AU24
As they are scanned images of original registration records they are most informative - so long as the correct information was given at the time.
The information asked for at the time of marriage on these images:
Marriages
 Date and place of marriage;
 name and surnames;
 conjugal condition, whether bachelor or spinster, widow or widower,
 stating date of decease of former wife or husband;
 children by each former marriage;
 birthplace;
 occupation;
 age;
 residence (present and usual);
 parent's names of each party (including mother's maiden name) and occupation of    father;
 signatures of the parties and witnesses;
 signature of Minister.


Judith

Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: majm on Thursday 03 March 16 01:05 GMT (UK)
New South Wales Roman Catholic Baptisms solemnized in the Parish of (No Name) in the county of(No Name) in the year 1846

When baptised-April 22
When born 1845 17th December
Child's Christian Name-Anastasia
Father -Michael Honan
Mother -Winifred Heffornd
Abode  Goulbourn  (a code Printed underneath this is 39268)
sponsers William (Hard to read surname looks like) Dempey and mary Dempy or Denapog
 Cantread the name who performed the ceremony

Re 39268

The Victorian BDM has TWO documents that will be of interest

Year of 1846
Registration No. 39268
HONAN
Anastasia
Father as Michael (HONAN)
Mother as Winifred (HEFFORN)

Year of 1846
Registration No.1556
HONAN
Anastasia
Father as Michael (HONAN)
Mother as Winifred (HEFFERIN)


1846, so this is before Victoria had been hived off from NSW, and it is also before Civil registration commences.  So these two documents which VIC BDM hold and which are noted on their own line index as ‘Births” are in fact, baptisms which may include a date of birth.    This would explain why there’s Sponsors (Godparents) noted by Hereford.   Not all baptismal records are found in the Civil Records, but many are.   And, not all those found records note birth dates, but many do.

There are well known reasons for more than one parish register to include the record of a baptism, and/or a burial and/or a marriage.  In particular in New South Wales at that time, the clergy were still formally required to obey the General Order that was first issued by Lachlan Macquarie back in 1810.   Of course, over the decades, the General Order was less and less remembered, but in general terms, the clergy were expected by the civil administration to transmit on a quarterly basis (so in April, July, October and January) to their denomination’s head office (Diocese) the details of the baptisms, burials, marriages for the quarter year just completed.   The Diocese was then meant to forward the statistics to the civil administration, basically to help determine the population and therefore check their current planning arrangements etc. 

So, sometimes in the BDM indexes in the years before civil registration commences, you can find two or more registrations for the same event.  I have one ancestor (a female) whose baptism was recorded in five different parish registers, yet her twin brother’s baptism (same day, same clergy, same location) is found just twice, (running numbers on the indexes too, same page on the original parish register).

So clearly Anastasia’s baptism occurred in that part of NSW that has been Victoria since 1851, as the 39268 reference is a reference from VIC BDM’s current index.
 https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj

Hereford, may I mention here that each of the colonies (now states) in the Antipodes was treated by Britain as a separate jurisdiction.  So in the same way that New Zeland has its own BDM, so too each of the other colonies had their own BDM, and because each of those other colonies are now states, they each continue to be separate jurisdictions in their own right.  So for example, each continues to have its own parliament, its own police force, its own BDM, and many other separate institutions.  Our Federal Parliament (Canberra) has its own written constitution, which commences in 1901.  Our States constitutions commence back in the 1800s, when Britain granted self government to each colony at separate times in their written histories.

As an aside,  NSW BDM's Early Church Records (the "V" in the index indicates these) include Baptisms, Burials, Marriages celebrated in New Zealand, and other South Seas Islands, as well all of what was NSW at that time.  However, NOT all the "V" series include at the online index the relevant District code for a specific index entry. (Marriages tend to, but not baptisms/burials).  Other offline resources may have better details than the online index.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/early-church-codes.aspx



Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: JanStef on Thursday 03 March 16 01:30 GMT (UK)
Hi
New South Wales, Victoria and Queensland sites allow you to order from the site. There are transcription agents that are a little cheaper, around $20 Australian.
Tasmania, South Australia and Northern Territory BDM's aren't set up for online ordering. I don't know about Western Australia.
If I can be of more help let me know.
regards
Jan
Queensland
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Thursday 03 March 16 02:51 GMT (UK)
Looking for death record of John Hynes as I assume he died for Anastasia to be able to marry Oliver. hereford
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: judb on Thursday 03 March 16 03:18 GMT (UK)
There are quite a few deaths for "John HYNES" however I cannot see one which fits the time frame for her to be married again by 1866.  Of course, she may not have formally married Oliver DAWSON at all.

I wonder if this child is the one we're after?  Anastasia may well have changed the child's name when she was with Oliver DAWSON  - often no passports or birth certificates were ever needed.

Birth Victoria, registered 1863, #8271
John Michael HYNES
Birth Date:   Abt 1863, born at Heathcote
Father:   John Hynes
Mother:   Hannah Honan

Judith
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: judb on Thursday 03 March 16 03:27 GMT (UK)
And another child for John HYNES and Anastasia

Registered Victoria 1861, #15489
Mary HYNES
Birth Date:   Abt 1861, born Rushworth, Victoria
Father:   John Hynes
Mother:   Anastatie Honan

The child listed above John Michael HYNES died aged 3 months; death registered 1863 #6946  So he could not have been the child Oliver DAWSON.

Judith
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: majm on Thursday 03 March 16 04:06 GMT (UK)
Looking for death record of John Hynes as I assume he died for Anastasia to be able to marry Oliver. hereford

On the index prepared by Victoria’s Public Records Office (PROV)
There is a Mr HYNES aged 25 departing Victoria for Sydney NSW (so leaving one colony and going to another colony) on the City of Melbourne II, in July 1863.   

http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=42



 
Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: majm on Thursday 03 March 16 04:30 GMT (UK)
.....
Children noted in Family Bible.
William Oliver Dawson born 1866,Fredrick Dawson born 1868, Mathew H Dawson born 1870, John Michael Dawson 1872, Annie Elizabeth Ellen Dawson  1874,Thomas Dawson 1875 Hugh Dawson 1878 and Joseph Dawson 1882.Hugh and Joseph born at Blue spur and the others apart from William were born at Tuapeka Mouth.

From NZ bdm online
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/

Frederick James DAWSON, parents as Ann and Oliver  Ref 1868/34033
I Cannot find Mathew H DAWSON born 1870
John William Willis DAWSON parents as Ann and Oliver Ref 1870/36515
I Cannot find John Michael DAWSON born 1872
Annie Elizabeth Ellen DAWSON parents as Annie and Oliver Ref 1873/19751
Thomas DAWSON, parents as Annie and Oliver Ref 1876/6102
I Cannot find Hugh DAWSON born 1878
I Cannot find Joseph DAWSON born 1882

William Oliver DAWSON is listed as aged 62 years when his 1928 death was registered #1928/9275. 


Cheers,  JM


Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Thursday 03 March 16 04:52 GMT (UK)
This is getting to be a very interesting quest. William Oliver was born 1866 when she was with Oliver. I wonder why the first marriage did not survive and perhaps you are correct Judb Annie and Oliver never married .I Wonder what happened to Mary? .Obviously the marriage did not survive. Thanks Hereford.
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 03 March 16 06:45 GMT (UK)

Death certificate for Anastasia (Annie) DAWSON, died 1901 -
"...6 males and 2 females living at her death".  Who is the informant on this certificate?

The bible, and BDM index finds seven sons and one daughter. Are there children who have predeceased Annie by 1901.........who is the second daughter?

Do you have a death certificate for Oliver DAWSON to see how his children are accounted for?

Might be that William Oliver DAWSON uses this name but is known not to be the son of Oliver DAWSON?

How does William Oliver DAWSON name his parents on his marriage certificate?
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 03 March 16 07:11 GMT (UK)

When couples are having children and there is no marriage certificate to find it is usually because one or both are still married to someone else, which supports the idea that Anastasia m. 1860, VIC.

A very young Anastasia marries John HYNES in 1860.
Two births to this couple - Mary HYNES 1861  and John Michael HYNES 1863 ( died 1863)

Is this Mary the second daughter for the counting on death certificate of Annie DAWSON, d. 1901?

I think it is very likely that there Anastasia would have another child before the 1868 birth in NZ?

Would this birth certificate, 1868 NZ, list previous issue?

I think the 1860 HONAN / HYNES marriage certificate would be useful to you to see if parents are named and if they are present (witnesses......permission)

Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Friday 04 March 16 02:01 GMT (UK)
Yes I believe the other daughter is Mary. She was alive at the death of her mother but cant find a death for her. On the death of Oliver 5 males and 1 female. I did the Maths and I think Joseph may have died as well as Mary before Oliver's death.I did find one Mary between 1901 and 1911 but her age at death was 22 where my Mary would have been alot older than that. Cant find a death on either of these two.Finding a sailing may help but i have had no luck in the past . Have a sailing for Oliver's sister Elizabeth and her Husband but none for him.
I am going to get William Marriage cert and the  Hynes Honan marriage cert so hopefuly that will give me info.I have his death cert but whoever filled in the information  did not know mothers name just Dawson as surname. Had father down as William Oliver Dawson. Thanks Hereford.
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 04 March 16 02:15 GMT (UK)
The Press 26 Oct 1927
THE Funeral of the late Joseph DAWSON will leave tho residence of Mrs G H Clarke, 484 Selwyn street, City, on Wednesday (This Day). October 26th, at 2 p.m., for the Sydenham Cemetery.

                                 1927/10661 DAWSON  Joseph   44Y     death


New Zealand Herald 14 Nov 1942
Hugh DAWSON, of Otorohanga. loved brother of Mat DAWSON, of 141 Great South Road Dunedin; aged 62 years. Service at. Scrimshaw's Chapel to-day (Saturday) at 10.30 a.m., funeral then leaving for the Hamilton East Cemetery.

                                 1942/30429 DAWSON  Hugh   62Y          death

Who is the informant for the death certificate Annie DAWSON 1901?

Can you please list all the information on the death certificate for Oliver DAWSON d 1911

1911/6925 DAWSON  Oliver   72Y
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Friday 04 March 16 07:55 GMT (UK)
 the informant on Annie's Certificate looks like a James  Pearson.looks like an H for the middle initial.
His description cant read first bit but second word looks like Reg and he was from Lawrence.

Oliver
1911 July 11 Mental Hospital Seacliff  Oliver Dawson  farm Labourer. male 72 yrs Verdict Coronary Heart failure. Father noted just Dawson Farm labourer 1911 July 14 buried Anderson's bay cemetery
D G B King Church of England Minister. Where born Hampshire England states been in NZ 50yrs.
Married Melbourne Victoria Age unknown at time of marriage Wife noted as Annie Honan Dead
5 male children alive and 1 Female. The informant was Coroner Dunedin but cant read the signature  Cant read Registrar  but dated 1911 July 20

Oliver was born in Durham England . His Father was Oliver Dawson and he was a farmer.He died before 1851. Don't know why the youngest son Joseph is not mentioned here if it was Oliver's Joseph Dawson who died in 1927
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Wednesday 09 March 16 18:20 GMT (UK)
have just received  The New South Wales copy of the Marriage cert. Info on cert reads as follows
Grooms details Michael Honan His x mark  .
Member Roman Catholic Church
Abode Melbourne

Brides Details
Name Winifred Heffernan Her x mark
Member Roman Catholic Church
Abode Melbourne

When Married 29 August 1841
Where married Melbourne

Minister Paul B Geoghegan Minister of St Francis Church
Religion Roman Catholic
Abode Melbourne

Witnesses  Michael Hogan of Melbourne
                Mary Bryne her x mark of Melbourne.
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Wednesday 09 March 16 22:49 GMT (UK)
A correction to the name of the Minister he was Father Patrick Bonaventure Geoghegan.The church they were married in would have been a temporary chapel as the foundation stone was not laid until 4 October 1841 Patrick was a Franciscan priest. -Found this information on
 www.stfrancismelbourne.org.au  Hereford.
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: judb on Thursday 10 March 16 00:07 GMT (UK)
Bother - sometimes these old certificates have a wealth of information; sometimes they just confirm what is already known.

Thanks for letting us know.

Judith
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: majm on Thursday 10 March 16 00:14 GMT (UK)
Yes, many thanks.  Judith is right, sometimes there's a wealth of information. 

It is also possible that the couple were not married inside a church building at all.  I think you may find that in the colony of NSW there has not been a formal church law (for any denomination) requiring the ceremony to be held inside a Church Building (temporary or otherwise).     

Does the document you have received include the status of the bride/groom .... ie Bachelor/Spinster/Widowhood?

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 10 March 16 04:45 GMT (UK)
Guided by the death certificates for Annie DAWSON  d 1901, and husband Oliver DAWSON  d. 1911, there should be one son and one daughter  dying between these events.

Annie Elizabeth Ellen DAWSON  m. David CLARK   d. 1916. So daughter dying between 1901 and 1911 would be yet-to-de  identified daughter? And she might not die in NZ?

NSW BDM   death
12851 / 1896  DAWSON Frederick J     @ Bathurst   ps. Oliver / Annie

I cannot see an obvious  marriage for Frederick in NZ or NSW, or  births /  deaths of children.

A newspaper article, being an account of hospital deaths, gives his age as 29 years.

If there is no wife, who is in Bathurst to give details for his death record?.

Frederick is from a mining family. While Bathurst is a mining area, I might have thought that an adventurous young man would go to WA at this time.

Might be interesting to see who is named as I formant on this death certificate.
   
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Thursday 10 March 16 07:56 GMT (UK)
Thankyou that is very interesting about Fredrick. Another path to go down.

No they weren't married in the church it was just a temporary chapel made from second hand floorboards .The foundation stone was laid a few months after their marriage.  Thanks Hereford.
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Thursday 10 March 16 08:01 GMT (UK)
I think the son was Joseph who died and the daughter was mary  Hereford.
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Thursday 10 March 16 22:53 GMT (UK)
Hi Just a thought. Had a look on NZ BDM tried Mary Dawson and Mary Hynes between those yrs no luck unless she married of course. Just wondering if she went back to Australia with Fredrick. She may have been the informant. Also wondering if she returned to NZ(if she did go to Aussie ) because she is on the 1901 death cert but not the 1911.
Trying to do the maths and there seems to be on some a yr out for ages. The writer on the family bible may not have been totally accurate with birth dates as it looks as though it was written in one sitting .
William 1866
Fred 1868
Mat 1870
Annie 1874
John 1872
Thomas 1872
Hugh 1878
Joseph  1882
Mary 1861
 I believe that Mary Mat Annie John Thomas Hugh Joseph and Mary are the recorded children on Annie's Death cert and William Mat John Thomas and Hugh and Annie are on Oliver's death cert. So according to me 3 Children have died by 1911
1901 6 males 35,32,30,25,23,19  2 Females 39,28
1911 5 males 46,41,39,35,33      1 female 37
Where would I look to get the newspaper article.
Thanks Hereford
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Thursday 10 March 16 23:13 GMT (UK)
A question where would I look to get information on where Convicts and Bounty Immigrants worked. Trying to find records on where Annie's father Michael Ho nan worked  and where Winifred worked. She was a Bounty immigrant.He got his ticket of leave 1839 and a pardon in Sept 1841  Thanks Hereford
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: Dundee on Friday 11 March 16 00:18 GMT (UK)
The 1837 muster shows that Michael and Thomas HONAN were assigned to F.M. MUNDY at St Vincent.  This man's full name is Fitzherbert Miller MUNDY.

St Vincent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Vincent_County

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: Dundee on Friday 11 March 16 00:43 GMT (UK)
Michael's ticket of leave document dated 7 Oct 1839 notes that he was to remain in the Braidwood district and also notes that he later held a 'ticket of leave passport' number 40/185, 40 referring to the year of issue - 1840.

A passport enabled a convict to travel outside their designated area.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/res-11.html

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-convict-records/index-to-ticket-of-leave-passports

Here is an example of what they look like:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01h8o/

You can search the convict indexes here and also order a copy if you wish:

http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=65

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: Dundee on Friday 11 March 16 00:56 GMT (UK)
Sometimes there are surviving disposal lists for passengers arriving on the bounty system.  These lists give details of who the immigrants are contracted to work for, but unfortunately I cannot see any for the ship Neptune arriving in 1841.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Friday 11 March 16 01:04 GMT (UK)
Hi The only info I have for Winifred is the record pf passengers. But on the info i have her ship Neptune arrived 1841 and she was married 1841.It seems asthough she just walked of the boat and got married. Hereford.
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Friday 11 March 16 01:09 GMT (UK)
Thanks Debra for this . Hereford
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Friday 11 March 16 04:10 GMT (UK)
Sorry Jm the certificate states only name witness and who married them and where nothing else. Hereford.
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 11 March 16 06:07 GMT (UK)

The information written in the family bible - can you scan the page/s and put them here for us to see?  There might be some clues.

Can you see what the names might have been written with....ball point pen would mean mid 20th century +. Usually birth entries in a bible, whenever they are made, will have day, month and year. 
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Saturday 12 March 16 00:00 GMT (UK)
Sorry I cant get it to come on to this reply If I could get someones email perhaps I can send it that way. I believe it was written in Ink as i can see some inky splotches on the paper.  hereford
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 12 March 16 22:48 GMT (UK)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=668043.0

Is this any help to you for attaching image?
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Sunday 13 March 16 19:36 GMT (UK)
Re scanning
Sorry having no luck at all The scanned image is in the relevant folders but when I click onto choose file and go to the folder where the image is it doesn't show up. All i can say is there are no clues as all that is written is the name date of birth and where born. I do believe it is ink pen not Biro as there are ink splotches on the paper.  Hereford
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: sarra on Tuesday 15 March 16 00:42 GMT (UK)
Re scanning
Sorry having no luck at all The scanned image is in the relevant folders but when I click onto choose file and go to the folder where the image is it doesn't show up. All i can say is there are no clues as all that is written is the name date of birth and where born. I do believe it is ink pen not Biro as there are ink splotches on the paper.  Hereford
Hereford,
Would it be easier to save/or send the scanned image to your desktop. I do this quite often myself.
What have you saved the scanned image as? - jpg - jpeg -tif.
Not sure if this will help you.
Sarra
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: hereford on Tuesday 15 March 16 00:56 GMT (UK)
I have it on the desk top but unable to go further. hereford
Title: Re: Obtaining BDM certificates
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 15 March 16 03:02 GMT (UK)
DO not continue to try to add the scan of bible page, but can you confirm that the information consists of the names, plus year, for each child......... nothing else. You said that there were births at Tuapeka.......how do you know this?.

What are you planning to do next to continue this research?