RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: scatchardfamily on Sunday 06 March 16 15:10 GMT (UK)
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I have traced my ancestry to an Elizabeth Wilson, born 1837/8 in Breighton and married Thomas Coldwell in 1859 in Brayton. She shows up on census there forwards married and with children. It's the getting back that's the problem.
Her marriage certificate says father is William. There is a baptism in 1838 in Sherburn in Elmet, seems to be her. However, the only eligible couple appears to be a William Wilson married to Abigail in Aberford.
And then the problems begin. There is another Wilson family, with another Elizabeth, living in Aberford and another baptism a year before. People on Ancestry are muddled and I just can't cut through it.
Can anyone suggest a scenario for the elusive Elizabeth Wilson?
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Hi,
On the marriage cert what occupation is given for Elizabeth's father. Also what are the witnesses names as they can sometimes hold a clue?
JJ
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Sensible suggestions.
On the cert it says William Wilson was a Labourer.
Witnesses:
John Coldwell
Elizabeth Coldwell
I have always assumed these to be brother and sister of the groom, but they could be father and sister or even father and aunt.
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Possible scenario
Bear in mind South Milford is in the parish of Sherburn in Elmet
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Sherburninelmet/
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You need to check original parish registers and original 1841 census to confirm info, also abodes in the parish registers but so far seems to fit locations
The 1841c is Monk Fryston -residence Burton (Burton Salmon is about 4 miles from Birkin parish village where William Wilson and Ann Twivy married 1829 in Birkin Parish)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQPK-LTD
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JW29-SYC
above link - Elizabeth Wilson bapt 1838 Sherburn in Elmet (abode probably South Milford)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J74Z-MHL
Elizabeth's possible brother George Wilson b 1835 in top 1841c link is the Key
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNRH-M6T
William Wilson X Ann Twivy marriage 1829 Birkin above link
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1841 as 2nd link down from top of page,- above
1851 c Can't find Elizabeth Wilson b 1837-ish ??? (Could be a servant maid anywhere in another county-maybe her employer put her birth place down wrong ???)
1851 c Mother Ann Wilson (nee Twivy) widow (of William)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKVP-H4RP
1851 c Probable brother George Wilson b1835
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKVP-HFXJ
1861 c Elizabeth Coldwell (nee Wilson) born Milford Junction
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7R1-X66
1871 c Elizabeth Coldwell (nee Wilson) born Milford
1881 c Elizabeth Coldwell (nee Wilson) born Brayton
1891 c Elizabeth Coldswell (nee Wilson) born Yorkshire
1901 c Elizabeth Coldwell (nee Wilson) born South Milford
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102344965
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That is so amazing – many thanks indeed.
I don't know why this one has been difficult to work out. Perhaps because of the movement around parishes. I have also failed to spot this marriage in Birkin; again, I don't know why.
Must try harder!
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I think family search IGI is a good first tool geneology website as a simpler first step as a broad view picture than Ancestry or FindMyPast websites that are a bit too accurate for first steps and only to be used in the next level up of fine tuning searching. Not to be swamped in too much fine detailed bumph at first as can't see wood for trees but can see the wood being the forest of trees -> the broad view.
:)
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Great advice.
Is it me or do the children seem rather spread out. Seems a bit of a "modern" distribution; normally there's children every year or so...
What I would say is that the birth year for George on the 1841 census does not match the baptism on the IGI. From this, do we understand there was a delay before baptism?
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A lot of children died in infancy them days and maybe reason for gaps also farm labourers
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Birth and Baptism same year 1835
George Wilson baptism 31st May 1835
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J74Z-MHL
George Wilson on the 1841 census age 6
Plus its says on 1841 census George birth year was 1835
1841c
6 years - (Minus)
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= 1835 baptism year
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQPK-LT8
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Ah, I see this George now.
It's just I have a note there is one as follows:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J74H-SZ6
Must be different person – earlier incarnation?!
I also see a very large Wilson contingency in the 1841 Monk Fryston – a different wing of the family, perhaps?
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As I said earlier !! you'll need to check the abodes in Sherburn in Elmet PR's of Elizabeth Wilson bapt 1838 and George Wilson bapt 1842
There is another William Wilson and Ann in Barkston Ash in Sherburn in Elmet parish for George Wilson baptized 1842 (birth year 1843 on 1851 census but no Elizabeth b 1837 ish on 1841c for this couple)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKVP-HR84
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQP2-43R
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Great advice.
Is it me or do the children seem rather spread out. Seems a bit of a "modern" distribution; normally there's children every year or so...
What I would say is that the birth year for George on the 1841 census does not match the baptism on the IGI. From this, do we understand there was a delay before baptism?
I believe there was forms of contraception birth control using animal intestines or bladder skins early 19th century and a sort of a hit and miss affair by all accounts with gaps in years of children
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That is so amazing – many thanks indeed.
I don't know why this one has been difficult to work out. Perhaps because of the movement around parishes. I have also failed to spot this marriage in Birkin; again, I don't know why.
Must try harder!
Possibly, but the movement of parishes between different local government areas can't have helped either.
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Well Elizabeth Coldwell nee Wilson was fairly decisive about her birth place, maybe the only way is to find some infomation with parents with mother maiden names to work from !! would be birth certificates-costly, but would have address, father occupation and better placed in your knowledge for your quest
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Exactly which certificates would you recommend?
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Exactly which certificates would you recommend?
All I can only advise:- is work from your own research and judgment on what you know about Elizabeth. (nee Wilson) Coldwell
Check infant GRO death/parish burials against births in GRO index list also with Parish burial dates against the quarters of GRO index of near years of a GRO birth index.
First step is to acquire a parish baptism entry event copy from the original church register to see the abode of the parents in the parish (The abode could be in an adjoining parish near the researched parish boundary)
The GRO district that covers South Milford ? will be a starting point to choose like Tadcaster (Not Tadcaster parish) GRO district that seems most likely district to find South Milford in its Sherburn in Elmet parish list.
Pontefract maybe the original parent district (See table 2 box 'k' in Tadcaster list changes dates)
If in any doubt contact todays Pontefract register office for further uptodate advice
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/tadcaster.html
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Sherburninelmet/
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Thank you once again for all the helpful suggestions.
All I'm saying is that Elizabeth is unlikely to have a birth certificate. I have her marriage and that would not give her mother's maiden name.
I could, however, try for later siblings...
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Using FindMyPast, I can't see the baptisms in Sherburn in Elmet (BTs too early and parish records too late), but:
George Wilson - baptised 31 May 1835 at Monk Fryston - son of William (Labourer) and Ann Wilson of Burton Salmon.
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I have traced my ancestry to an Elizabeth Wilson, born 1837/8 in Breighton and married Thomas Coldwell in 1859 in Brayton. She shows up on census there forwards married and with children. It's the getting back that's the problem.
Her marriage certificate says father is William. There is a baptism in 1838 in Sherburn in Elmet, seems to be her. However, the only eligible couple appears to be a William Wilson married to Abigail in Aberford.
And then the problems begin. There is another Wilson family, with another Elizabeth, living in Aberford and another baptism a year before. People on Ancestry are muddled and I just can't cut through it.
Can anyone suggest a scenario for the elusive Elizabeth Wilson?
Curtesy of BumbleB
Sherburn in Elmet parish Baptism entry in bishops transcript's
Baptised 13 May, 1838 - born 24 April 1838- Elizabeth - William and Ann Wilson of Milford, Labourer ***
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JW29-SYC
??? Also George Wilson - baptised 31 May 1835 at Monk Fryston - son of William (Labourer) *** and Ann Wilson of Burton Salmon.
Your post 2
your Quote
Sensible suggestions.
On the cert it says William Wilson was a Labourer. *** (marriage certificate 1859)
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Birth certificates started 1837 so Elizabeth should have one
Now you have a date of birth - born 24 April 1838 for Elizaberth Wilson contact Pontefract register office. (Birth Certificate with Mothers maiden name will answer William & Ann Wilson marriage names)
Pontefract register office
Town Hall
Bridge Street
Pontefract
West Yorkshire
WF8 1PG
Tel: 01977 722 670
:)
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That's incredible – many thanks! So, this will prove if it's her or not...
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Must be Jun 1838 Wilson Elizabeth Pontefract 22 454?
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As I said! ask the advice of local register offices by the exact date born 24 April 1838 if they have an Elizabeth as national GRO qtr.'s index from Southport are a bit vague or hit & miss but the local registers offices ask questions on a form you fill in of what you know about Elizabeth also verbal questions face to face so to speak (or by telephone)!! to check against their original registers . Then and only then will they advise purchasing a certificate if your info matches theirs. Ie;- the exact (or very, very near ) birth date, as a known fact! father William and probable mother Ann, with place of birth being as a known fact! Milford
Good luck with it all. :)
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Wow, I had no idea you could ring them up and ask for information in the register before purchasing?!
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Wow, I had no idea you could ring them up and ask for information in the register before purchasing?!
It won't be like a normal discussion
You can ask general advise
You don't ask for info in the register- you supply them info you know about Elizabeth that can help them decide if its the correct certificate or not
Then they may ask additional questions of you while looking at the register and info you have already supplied ( asking for extra clues) then you answer
Like I applied for a death certificate in Chesterfield- They asked me if I had a parent or an uncle called Thomas with the same surname as my granddad (person [& informant] Thomas the son with granddad at death on the certificate I found out later after buying the death certificate)
You'll get the drift as you talk to them ('Cap in hand' best approach)
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Must be Jun 1838 Wilson Elizabeth Pontefract 22 454?
Forget the national Southport GRO index with lots of BMD's missing and their numbers as local register offices have their own numbers of all BMDs in their area on original register books entries of the time / date year of entry as they happened on a daily event basis. In your case Milford or South Milford most likely now held under or at Pontefract register office
First job ask Pontefact register office if they hold BMD's register that covered South Milford and if not ? which register office holds the BMD registers for South Milford
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Still haven't ordered these certs but is it worth noting that, with the new GRO website and extra details on offer, the relevant possibles are:
WILSON, ELIZABETH WILSON GRO Reference: 1837 D Quarter in PONTEFRACT Volume 22 Page 289
WILSON, ELIZABETH SYKES GRO Reference: 1838 M Quarter in PONTEFRACT Volume 22 Page 342
WILSON, ELIZABETH SHARP GRO Reference: 1838 J Quarter in PONTEFRACT Volume 22 Page 454
WILSON, ELIZABETH PICKERSGILL GRO Reference: 1839 D Quarter in PONTEFRACT Volume 22 Page 412
Any views?
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There is another William Wilson and Ann in Barkston Ash in Sherburn in Elmet parish for George Wilson baptized 1842 (birth year 1843 on 1851 census but no Elizabeth b 1837 ish on 1841c for this couple)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKVP-HR84
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQP2-43R
I'm wondering why we think this is a different couple? Why can it not be the same? What I have found is that George's baptism shows the couple now living in Barkston Ash, hence tallies with the census.
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Possible scenario
Bear in mind South Milford is in the parish of Sherburn in Elmet
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Sherburninelmet/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You need to check original parish registers and original 1841 census to confirm info, also abodes in the parish registers but so far seems to fit locations
The 1841c is Monk Fryston -residence Burton (Burton Salmon is about 4 miles from Birkin parish village where William Wilson and Ann Twivy married 1829 in Birkin Parish)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQPK-LTD
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JW29-SYC
above link - Elizabeth Wilson bapt 1838 Sherburn in Elmet (abode probably South Milford)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J74Z-MHL
Elizabeth's possible brother George Wilson b 1835 in top 1841c link is the Key
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNRH-M6T
William Wilson X Ann Twivy marriage 1829 Birkin above link
____________________
1841 as 2nd link down from top of page,- above
1851 c Can't find Elizabeth Wilson b 1837-ish ??? (Could be a servant maid anywhere in another county-maybe her employer put her birth place down wrong ???)
1851 c Mother Ann Wilson (nee Twivy) widow (of William)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKVP-H4RP
1851 c Probable brother George Wilson b1835
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKVP-HFXJ
1861 c Elizabeth Coldwell (nee Wilson) born Milford Junction
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7R1-X66
1871 c Elizabeth Coldwell (nee Wilson) born Milford
1881 c Elizabeth Coldwell (nee Wilson) born Brayton
1891 c Elizabeth Coldswell (nee Wilson) born Yorkshire
1901 c Elizabeth Coldwell (nee Wilson) born South Milford
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102344965
And could not Class: HO107; Piece: 1283; Book: 10; Civil Parish: Sherburn; County: Yorkshire; Enumeration District: 11; Folio: 20; Page: 11; Line: 19; GSU roll: 464249 be William WILSON left behind by his wife for this census?
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Oh dear... and now there seems to be another Elizabeth Wilson, declaring the same father's Christian name, and with the same year of birth, living in Sherburn, with a life forking in a totally different direction: dystoniapete on Ancestry's tree.