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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Tepe on Sunday 27 March 16 18:46 BST (UK)

Title: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Sunday 27 March 16 18:46 BST (UK)
I am seeking information about my grandfather, Thomas Procter., Licensed Victualler, native of Preston. plumber by trade, went to Leeds. 1887 went back to Dolphin Hotel, Scarborough.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: JJen on Sunday 27 March 16 18:55 BST (UK)
Hi,

Welcome to RootsChat  :)

What type of information are you looking for?

Do you have him on any census and could you give us his year of birth please?

JJ
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Sunday 27 March 16 19:25 BST (UK)
Hello! That was quick! I only know his wife died before him.. she died in 1921. He was also  a fireman  for Leeds corporation. I have old pipes of his with an inscription but no date.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Sunday 27 March 16 19:27 BST (UK)
 PS. I don't know the name of his wife, my grandmother. I was born in 1928. There was a picture of me with him when I was about 3, but I don't have it.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 27 March 16 19:30 BST (UK)
Did he die in 1932?  If so, the death index gives a year of birth as c. 1862

Forget I said that - that was the most likely candidate if he died in Preston, not Scarborough.  Might have to pour myself a glass of red....... ;)
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Sunday 27 March 16 19:34 BST (UK)
 :)
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 27 March 16 19:37 BST (UK)
Ok, glass of red poured!

1891 at the Dolphin Hotel:

Thomas Proctor aged 37 bn Preston
Mary Jane Proctor, wife, aged 36 bn Leeds
sons richard (2) and Ernest (1) both bn Scarborough
daughters agnes (11) Gertrude (10), Ada (8 ), Emily (6) bn Leeds
Brothers in law John William Swales and Walter Swales bn Leeds
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 27 March 16 19:41 BST (UK)
Marriage at St George, Leeds

27th Jan 1879
Thomas Proctor  25  Bachelor  Fire Plug Inspector  2 Driffield Place, father Christopher Proctor (Upholsterer)
Mary Jane Swales  24  Spinster  4 Hillary Street, father Benjamin Swales (chimney sweep)
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 27 March 16 19:47 BST (UK)
1881 census:
4 Hillary St, Leeds
Thomas Proctor, 27, Police, bn Leeds
Mary j Proctor, 25, bn Leeds
Gertrude Proctor, dau , 1 mnth, bn Leeds
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: JJen on Sunday 27 March 16 19:48 BST (UK)
Looks like another profession to add  :)

West Yorkshire Police Records, Register of Constables, Leeds City Police -

Thomas Proctor (plumber) born Preston
Age 24
Height 5'8"

Date of appointment - 22 Feb 1878

JJ
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 27 March 16 19:51 BST (UK)
More info about his appearance:

Grey eyes, dark brown hair, fresh complexion.

Notes his previous profession as Plumber
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: JJen on Sunday 27 March 16 19:54 BST (UK)
Death of Mary Jane -

Mary J Procter
Date of Registration - Mar 1921
Age at Death - 66
Scarborough
Vol 9d Page 481

JJ
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 27 March 16 19:57 BST (UK)
1901 census:
26 Queen St, SCarborough

Thomas and Mary Jane are with their sons:
Richard, Ernest (noted as imbecile), William and Christopher

daughters:
Gertrude, Ada, Emily

married daughter and grandchildren:
Agnes Molland, May, Thomas and Ethel Molland
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: JJen on Sunday 27 March 16 20:01 BST (UK)
Thomas' son Richard followed in his father's footstep by enlisting in the West Riding Constabulary -
20 July 1910.

JJ
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: JJen on Sunday 27 March 16 20:16 BST (UK)
1861 -

Christopher Procter   45 Upholsterer and Paper Hanger b. Lancaster, Lancashire
Sarah Procter   40 b. Leeds, Yorkshire
William John Procter   15 b. Preston, Lancashire
Christopher Procter   13 b. Preston, Lancashire
Agnes Procter   10 b. Preston, Lancashire
Thomas Procter   7 b. Preston, Lancashire
Elizabeth Dean   step daughter 7 b. Leeds, Yorkshire
Sarah Procter   6/12 b. Preston, Lancashire

RG 9 Piece 3394 Folio 106 Page 22, Leeds

JJ
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 27 March 16 20:25 BST (UK)
Not found Thomas Procter on the 1911, but Mary Jane and 4 of their children are living at 6 Hope St in Scarborough
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Sunday 27 March 16 20:28 BST (UK)
Wondering if he left her, then, looking at the latest post! About to sit and study what you have sent.  :)
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: JJen on Sunday 27 March 16 20:34 BST (UK)
Christopher Proctor married Margaret Lough -
q3 1843, Preston
Vol 21 Page 313

Christopher remarried Sarah Dean -
q3 1860, Leeds
Vol 9b Page 493

JJ
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 27 March 16 20:41 BST (UK)
Wondering if he left her, then, looking at the latest post! About to sit and study what you have sent.  :)

Well, there is a Thomas Procter working as a servant for Edith Mary Hewison in Scarborough who would fit with your Thomas Procter.  Perhaps he was just working away from home.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: JJen on Sunday 27 March 16 20:42 BST (UK)
This could be Thomas on the 1911 (age slightly out  ???)  -

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7PF-TJ1

JJ

Edit -
I see we have similar thoughts Spidermonkey  :)
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 27 March 16 20:57 BST (UK)
Death of Mary Jane -

Mary J Procter
Date of Registration - Mar 1921
Age at Death - 66
Scarborough
Vol 9d Page 481

JJ

Probate index gives her address as Queens Head Hotel, Queen St, Scarborough.  Administration given to Thomas Procter, hotel proprietor.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 27 March 16 21:02 BST (UK)
Did Thomas die in 1940?  Probate index gives a possible death for a Thomas Procter of the Trafalgar Inn, Trafalgar St, West Scarborough.  Co-ordinating this with the death index, puts this Thomas as being 87 thus born in 1853
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Monday 28 March 16 10:45 BST (UK)
Thank you. All completely new information for me. You are breathing life into these people for me. If I try to research my mother, Hannah Procter, formerly Wilkinson, where do I start? Like my grandfather, I am Thomas. Again, thank you. TP
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Monday 28 March 16 10:51 BST (UK)
PS. Working from the earlier dates you sent, My Grandfather was indeed 87 when he died .. and it pointed to 1840.  I have few memories of him given I was 12 at his death. That is a bit surprising. Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 10:52 BST (UK)
You could start with her marriage.  A good (free!) resource is www.freebmd.org.uk  where you can search the indexes for births, marriages and deaths from the time of registration in 1837, up to relatively recently.

The freebmd search page http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl gives you a variety of options to fill in/leave blank depending on how much you know.

Why don't you have a go at trying to find her marriage, and then we can see how far back we can take her line too.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Monday 28 March 16 10:54 BST (UK)
Thanks, again. What a way to spend Easter!  Exciting, though. YP
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 10:56 BST (UK)
It is really exciting!!  (welcome to the club  ;) )
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Monday 28 March 16 11:15 BST (UK)
On the free site, it gives Hannah Wilkinson, Scarborough, a marriage date of September 1926 (864) which fits in with my dob 21.12.28. No other information apart from the date.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 11:23 BST (UK)
You wont get much more info from the index, except that if you click on the 864 (which should be blue and underlined), you will see the other people who are on the same page in the marriage register.  You should see your father's name..........

It can be useful to check these things, even if you think you know them, because sometimes you find extra names or names in a different order to what you expect.

Basically, the rule of the thumb is to start with what you think you know, prove it, and then move backwards.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Monday 28 March 16 11:25 BST (UK)
 :)
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 11:26 BST (UK)
Do you have any subscriptions to sites such as Ancestry or Find My Past?  If not, I believe that Ancestry might be having a free access weekend at the moment. 

ETA:  they are  - I believe this is the link http://www.ancestry.co.uk/cs/free-access
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Monday 28 March 16 11:34 BST (UK)
No memberships. I'll look at the link you sent. TP
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 11:38 BST (UK)
Looking at the 1939 register, I think I can see your parents - was your dad a plumber?

If so, your mum gives a birth date of 29 June 1896, does that sound about right?
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 11:55 BST (UK)
Do you know the names of your maternal grandparents, or the names of any siblings that your mother had?
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Monday 28 March 16 13:06 BST (UK)
That is exactly right about the dates and my dad being a plumber. My mother came from Seaham Harbour. Her father was a miner.  I don't think we knew them. There was a Rebecca married to a Spanish publican named Cance. I have photographs of a cycling champion on my mother's side, who sailed on the Ajax. He died young and no name is on the photograph.  My mother used to say we were related to Stevenson of steam engine fame, but I don't know if that is fact or fiction. TP
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 14:35 BST (UK)
In which case, I think this is a likely family on the 1901 census:

55 Doctor St, Seaham
Joseph Wilkinson  Head  Mar   42  Coal hewer  bn Durham, Seaham
Isabella Wilkinson  wife  mar  32  bn Durham Sheriff hill
Margaret wilkinson  dau  14  bn Durham, Silksworth
Annie Wilkinson  dau  12  bn Durham, Seaham
William Wilkinson  son  10  bn Durham, Seaham
Violet wilkinson  dau  8  bn Durham, Seaham
Alice Wilkinson  dau  6  bn Durham, Seaham
Hannah Isabella Wilkinson  dau  4  bn Durham, Seaham
Florence Wilkinson  dau  2  bn Durham, Seaham
William Cummings  uncle  single 60  Coal Miner - Shifter  bn Durham, Kelloe
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 14:58 BST (UK)
The 1911 census shows an additional two children: Rebecca bn c. 1902 and Richard bn c. 1905 (both places of birth given as Seaham Colliery).  Violet has married Thomas Bell, who is also living with the family.  Margaret and Annie are not enumerated with the family.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Monday 28 March 16 16:28 BST (UK)
You are so kind. I am doing this as one of my brothers has pneumonia in hospital and the other is also very unwell. This information you send is helping me make sense of old photographs for them. Your work is so appreciated.  ;D TP.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 17:49 BST (UK)
It is not a problem at all  :)  As you mention photos, have you had a look at the Rootschat photo restoration board?  If you have photos that you need restored/coloured/location identified/dated, there are people who can work miracles!!
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 18:00 BST (UK)
1891 census: 3 Infant St, Seaham

Joseph wilkinson  Head  Mar  32  coal miner  bn New Seaham
Isabella Wilkinson  Wife  Mar  22  bn Sheriff Hill
Margaret Wilkinson  Dau  4 bn New Seaham
Annie Wilkinson  Dau  2  bn New Seaham
William Wilkinson  Son  5mnth  bn New Seaham

may be coincidence, but at no. 2 Infant Street there is a family with the surname Bell (including a 2 year old Thomas Bell).  Perhaps Violet married the  "boy next door"?!
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 18:15 BST (UK)
Going back another 10 years, Joseph is with his parents,I think.

1881 census: 12 School St
John Wilkinson  head  mar  53  Coal miner  bn Northumberland, wallsend
Ann Wilkinson  wife  mar  42  bn Northumberland, Martley?
Joseph Wilkinson  son  22  Coal miner  bn Durham, Seaham
Hales Wilkinson  son  13  Coal miner  bn Durham, Seaham
Alice Wilkinson  dau  14  Domestic Servant  bn Durham, Seaham

The fact that Joseph is alive in 1881, means that he, his brother and father survived the Seaham Colliery disaster of 1880, report here http://www.dmm.org.uk/reports/2924-02.htm
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Monday 28 March 16 18:26 BST (UK)
Fascinating stuff. I am writing a narrative with this information for my brothers. I restore my own photos but am glad to know of the site on rootschat. Again, thank you. I am interested in my dad's brother Ernest, listed as an imbecile. He was never mentioned.  :(
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 18:28 BST (UK)
There is an article in the Hartlepool Northern Daily Mail (11 Sept 1880) in which it seems that John Wilkinson was required to give evidence at the inquest to affirm the identity of one of the bodies that had been brought to the surface following the explosion.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 18:37 BST (UK)
Back another 10 years to the 1871 census:
14 New or Cornish Row, Seaham

John Wilkinson  Head  mar  44  Miner  bn Wallsend, Northumberland
Annie Wilkinson  wife  mar  39  bn ?Hattock Hole, Durham
John Wilkinson  son  18  Miner  bn Seaton Colliery
Joseph Wilkinson son  12  Miner  bn Seaton Colliery
Annie Wilkinson  dau  7  scholar bn Seaton Colliery
William Wilkinson  son  10  miner  bn Seaton Colliery
Alice Wilkinson  dau 4  bn Seaton Colliery
Hales H Wilkinson  son  3  bn Seaton Colliery

As you can see, between this census and the 1881 census, there are some children missing - John, Alice and William.  I'll see if I can follow these forward to see what happened to them.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Monday 28 March 16 18:58 BST (UK)
How do you do this! I'll never sleep! Very exciting but yu are doing the work for me. In truth, I would never have been able to do it, so I am infinitely grateful.  ;D TP
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 19:02 BST (UK)
 ;D I don't mind stopping if you want me to stop so you can have a go yourself!!
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 19:11 BST (UK)
I think that William Wilkinson was one of the men (boys!) killed during the explosion.  Certainly he is noted on a list of fatalities published in the Hartlepool Northern Daily Mail (9th Sept 1880)

http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/database/result/59211.html
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Monday 28 March 16 19:33 BST (UK)
please go  on? I love this and coulnt do it myself. mt bothers will be overwhelmed by this. You are making a lot of people very happy. ;D
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 28 March 16 19:53 BST (UK)
1861 - 21 German Row, Seaham

John Wilkinson  Head  mar 34  Coal Miner bn Northumberland, Wallsend
Ann Wilkinson  Wife  mar  30  Coal miner's wife  bn Durham Hotton le Hole
Thomas Wilkinson  Son  12 Coal Miner  bn Durham  Shotton?
Hannah Wilkinson  Dau  9 Scholar  bn Durham kellow
John Wilkinson  Son  8  Scholar  bn Durham Seaham
Christopher Wilkinson  Son  5  bn Durham Seaham
Joseph Wilkinson  Son  2  bn Durham Seaham
William Wilkinson  Son  4mnths  bn Durham Seaham
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Tuesday 29 March 16 16:34 BST (UK)
Coming slightly forward, as you mention your aunt Rebecca.  I can see her and her husband Canse Maddison on the 1939 register, and can also see their marriage in 1928 with the slightly more prosaic name of Michael Maddison!

Canse applied for naturalisation in 1933, giving the his name as Miguel Arcangel Morales Latorre (known as Canse Maddison)
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Tuesday 29 March 16 17:10 BST (UK)
I think, but not positive, that Rebecca and Canse's son died in a tragic accident in 1945, however because it is relatively recently I shall send you the details in a personal message.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Tuesday 29 March 16 20:00 BST (UK)
Thank you. I have been making a text document today to intersperce with the photos. Looking good, thanks to you.  ;D
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Tuesday 29 March 16 20:45 BST (UK)
Did your Aunt Florence marry John Knox?  If so, using www.freebmd.org.uk you can search for the births of any cousins that you have/had on that side.  From the search page, click on births, then type Knox in the surname box and Wilkinson in the spouse/mother surname box.  To narrow things down further, you can select 'Easingham' in the Districts selection to the right.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Tuesday 29 March 16 23:03 BST (UK)
Have a look here - I think William Mollon is one of your cousins on your father's side (son of Agnes bn 1880) http://www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk/nostalgia/1915-court-boys-charged-with-theft-of-fish-and-fowl-1-7603779

Tragically, 5 years later he was killed when his boat struck a mine.  He is remembered on the memorial at Tower Hill, London http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=15241846&ref=acom
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Wednesday 30 March 16 09:56 BST (UK)
Love the story of the thefts!  What a family history you uncover for us.  I have two photos of Willliam Mollon, and knew he was on the Ajax. I also served on that ship so maybe that is why that snippet of history was related to me. Strange how little of anything was told to us those days, though.   I am making - with the help of you and my wife - a book with all this that you have found and the old photos that have been too long in a tin. Ever grateful.

I joined the archive site you suggested for the free month's trial but am getting nowhere yet. I set myself the task of finding Ernest Procter, the person named as imbecile, and will try again today. TP
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Wednesday 30 March 16 10:13 BST (UK)
A bit of confusion with my memory. The boy who was  on the Ajax was on my mother's side and lived up North, as we used to say. NOw I think of it, I believe he survived  but later died with TB. William Mollan must have also been at sea and suffered the death you find. I have a photo of him in uniform. TP
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Wednesday 30 March 16 10:15 BST (UK)
re Florence. We didn't know her or her family. TP
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Wednesday 30 March 16 10:19 BST (UK)
I'm glad we are making sense of photos and stories!

If you haven't already discovered, you can use wildcards to help the search.  On Ancestry, you can use ? to replace a single letter, and * to replace more than one letter.  So for example, when searching for Procter, I actually search Proct?r because sometimes the surname was spelled ProctEr and sometimes ProctOr.  By using the wildcard, both variants would come up in the search.

Equally, if I was searching for Isabella, I would probably do Isa*, because that would pick up Isabel, Isabelle, Isabella etc.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Wednesday 30 March 16 10:26 BST (UK)
I think that William Mollon was aboard a fishing vessel, the "Taranaki" when it sank.  I'll see if I can find some more details about it.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Wednesday 30 March 16 10:34 BST (UK)
Ok, according to newspaper reports, the Taranaki was fishing about 40 to 45 miles north east by north of Scarborough when then realised that something else was in the nets as well as fish.  It was discovered to be a mine, and the cry went up "all out; all aft".  William Mollon, a deck hand, seemed a little dazed and did not move with the rest of the men.  The fore of the ship was blown away with the other half of the ship staying afloat long enough for a boat to be launched and all crew, with the exception of Mollon, were able to get into the boat.  The skipper of the Strathspey heard the explosion and came to the rescue of the men and brought them into SCarborough.  Apparently this was the third Scarborough boat lost since the end of the war, with the total loss of 18 men.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Wednesday 30 March 16 11:28 BST (UK)
Amazing! Thankyou! ;D
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Wednesday 30 March 16 16:50 BST (UK)
I realise that I am skipping about a bit here, going between your families - when I hit a brick wall with one family I go back to the other!

Going back to the Procters - Thomas Procter started off in Leeds before going to Scarborough, but it looks like for a brief period they returned to Leeds where your dad William Procter was born.  He was baptised on 8th April 1896 at Christ Church, Leeds.  The address given by your grandfather Thomas was Red House, Meadow Lane.  I think this is a photo of that pub of which Thomas was the publican http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?resourceIdentifier=200456_46174258
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Wednesday 30 March 16 17:05 BST (UK)
I have a picture of my grandad, Thomas, outside his Scarborough pub, The Queen. This is a lovely addition. I have tried to find the 'imbecile', Ernest on Ancestry, but what ever i search, even when I know the dates and names, it comes back with no results.  I am fascinated by your skill and acknowledge that I will never get there alone! I spent my life as an orchestral trumpet player. Reading the dots is child's play compared to this stuff! Thanks again. Tp ::)
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Wednesday 30 March 16 18:01 BST (UK)
Thomas Procter seems to have been a member of the Leopold Masonic Lodge in Scarborough.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Wednesday 30 March 16 18:35 BST (UK)
Thank you. We thought that, but had no proof. Also member of the Order of Buffaloes.  :)
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Hotice56 on Wednesday 30 March 16 22:27 BST (UK)
I am so enjoying following this through.. the pleasure you both are getting from it is clearly apparent. Looking forward to more.     Thank you both    Linda
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Thursday 31 March 16 11:40 BST (UK)
 ;D :)
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Thursday 31 March 16 14:32 BST (UK)
Linda, I have tried on the fbd pages and found neither Ernest Procter born 1890 in Scarborough or Florence Knox, both of whom you located. Not sure why I have no luck .. I filled in the boxes, etc. Tom :(
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Hotice56 on Thursday 31 March 16 15:07 BST (UK)
It was Spidermonkey not me Tom 
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Thursday 31 March 16 16:27 BST (UK)
Linda, I have tried on the fbd pages and found neither Ernest Procter born 1890 in Scarborough or Florence Knox, both of whom you located. Not sure why I have no luck .. I filled in the boxes, etc. Tom :(

This link should take you to the birth index record for Ernest Procter. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hd6/

I have to be honest, and say that I can't at the moment work out what happens to him after the 1911 census.  However, will keep plugging away at it!
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Thursday 31 March 16 17:01 BST (UK)
On your father's side, it looks as if he had 7 siblings:
Agnes
Gertrude
Ada
Emily
Richard
Ernest
Christopher

Do you remember any of them or any stories about them?  I am struggling to marry and kill them off  ;) so I wondered whether you could remember any other names or whether they, for example, emigrated, or stayed around Scarborough?
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Thursday 31 March 16 17:39 BST (UK)
I knew Agnes - auntie Aggie - until her impoverished old age. I didn't really meet her until then. She married into what my mother called, 'a rough family'. Your research on her son underlines this, maybe. As an old lady, she would sit warming herself with the oven on instead of other heat. I took her an electric fire once, but not sure she used it. Also knew Gertie, Ada and Emily. Richard - Uncle Dick married to Beaty, was also a publican. He had the Black Swan or the Swan. Uncle Chris moved to Swansea in Wales.  We visited him after I married and I knew his son, Keith.  He married Maggie ... no idea of her other name. She used to read to me as a child. I Don't know for certain if GERtie  was married but there is a photo that I think is her with a man and what could be two daughters. Emily married but stayed at home. She married a Jefferson, a green grocer with a side line in sea food. 
Aggie's daughter, name unknown, ran a fair ground and donkeys on the beach edge with her husband. I didn't really know her but knew of her. In truth,  I didn't really know any of our relatives very well.  Is that the fate of all children, a sign of the times,  or were my family isolationist! Tom.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Thursday 31 March 16 17:41 BST (UK)
What on earth did they do with poor little Ernest? TP
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Thursday 31 March 16 20:35 BST (UK)
I've found Richard Procter's WW1 service record - he was a gunner in the Royal Garrison Artillery (Reg No. 167066).  He was awarded, and received the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.  In acknowledging receipt of these, he gave the Black Swan Hotel, Queen St, Scarborough as his address.

When he had signed up, he was a policeman, living at 35 Springwood Ave, Shipley with his wife Beatrice.  He and Beatrice Ashmore had married at St Peters Church, Shipley on 20th Sept 1913.

On his marriage cert, he describes his father's profession as 'Hotel Keeper'.  The witnesses to the marriage were John William Shackleton and James Alfred Roberts.

I think Beatrice died in Dec 1937, and Richard died in Jun 1943.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Thursday 31 March 16 21:29 BST (UK)
Christopher Procter married Maggie Harris in Dec qtr 1927 in Barnsley registration district.  He died in Sept 1983 in Swansea.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Thursday 31 March 16 21:35 BST (UK)
Emily Procter married Thomas Henry Jones Renwick on 10 Mar 1917 at St Saviour, Chorlton.  On his marriage cert, he gave his profession as Private in Royal Field Artillery, address Post Office Tavern, Eastborough, Scarborough.  Father George Renwick, publican, deceased.

The witnesses to this marriage were Thomas Foster Wibberley and Mary Catherine Doyle.

Thomas Renwick died on 18/7/1917 and is commemorated at the Dickebusch New Military Cemetery Extension http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/442290/RENWICK,%20T

Emily then married Fred G Jefferson.  Fred also served in WW1, in the Prince of Wales' Own (West Yorkshire) Regiment.  They married in Jun qtr 1921 Scarborough.  In 1939, they lived at 60 Trafalgar St, Scarborough, and they were still living there in 1948 when Fred died.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Friday 01 April 16 11:50 BST (UK)
Another three pages in my 'book' with family records that you have provided. I am again humbly grateful, not knowing how you do it. I am still struggling to find Ernest. I wonder about the lunatic asylum in N Yorkshire, but can find no lists of residents. Tom. :)
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Treetotal on Friday 01 April 16 11:56 BST (UK)
Here is 60, Trafalgar Square, Scarborough:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Kerry+Lee+Hotel,+60+Trafalgar+Square,+Scarborough,+North+Yorkshire+YO12+7PY/@54.2872113,-0.4067316,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x487f478e1780885d:0xb1b68e22266efaf5

Carol
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Friday 01 April 16 12:15 BST (UK)
Thank you, Carol. TP
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: iolaus on Friday 01 April 16 12:22 BST (UK)
Theres a death for a 26 year old Ernest Procter in York in 1915 - that could fit

May be worth getting the certificate to prove Jun 1915 9d 3
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Friday 01 April 16 12:29 BST (UK)
Thanks. He was listed as an imbecile in the early census data. Does what you have found fit in with this? I wonder why York, too. Tom
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: iolaus on Friday 01 April 16 12:38 BST (UK)
There are other cases on rootschat of people from Scarborough being admitted to the North Riding Lunatic Asylum and their deaths are registered as York http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=78715.0

If he was admitted you may be able to get a lot of information on him - I had lots on my great, great grandfather from the Leicester Asylum, including a photograph, because he has died over 100 years ago the information could be released - if this is 'your' Ernest the 100 years would also apply

Which would give more information on what they mean by imbecile - I'm sure I've read somewhere that it could be something as 'simple' as epilepsy
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Friday 01 April 16 12:45 BST (UK)
Thanks. Not only am I new to this stuff, I am also incompetent. Spider Monkey has been incredible in researching for me. There is AS in the family, hence I am interested in the reason for Ernest's description. How do I set about doing the research you suggest. TP
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: iolaus on Friday 01 April 16 12:48 BST (UK)
Apparently the records are kept at Borthwick https://www.york.ac.uk/borthwick/

If you aren't local you could try emailing or ringing them
University Records Manager and Archivist: Charles Fonge
Records Management Assistant: Graham Hughes
 
Borthwick Institute for Archives
University of York
Heslington
York
YO10 5DD
 

Email: records-manager@york.ac.uk

Telephone:  +44 (0)1904 321168 / 321175

Fax: +44 (0)1904 321169


Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Friday 01 April 16 13:56 BST (UK)
Thank you. I have email the records officer. Tom
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 01 April 16 14:09 BST (UK)
Which would give more information on what they mean by imbecile - I'm sure I've read somewhere that it could be something as 'simple' as epilepsy

Yes - the categories assigned on the censuses sound hideously out of date.  On the 1911 census, Ernest is described as feeble minded from infancy.  As Iolaus says, it could mean Ernest had epilepsy, or perhaps something like Down's Syndrome.  Good luck with Borthwick - keep us informed of the outcome!!
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 01 April 16 14:15 BST (UK)
Gertrude Procter married Frank Blackbourn on April 8th 1901.  The witnesses were William John Baulk? and Ada Procter.

By the time of the 1911 census, they were living at 374 Chadderton Road, Oldham.  The census states that they had had 4 children born alive, with three still living: Florence (10), Elsie (9) and Gertrude (3).  All 3 children were born in Scarborough.

On the 1939 register, they are still living on Chadderton Road, Oldham but at no 182.  Whether they have moved house, or the road numbering changed, I haven't worked out.  Frank was working as a motor salesroom cleaner.  Two children were living with them - Florence (bn 25/1/01) and Lily (born after the 1911 census on 21/11/13).

Frank died in Dec 1945 and Gertrude died in Jun 1960, both in Oldham.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Friday 01 April 16 15:10 BST (UK)
More interesting pieces. Another Lily. Lily Bell, born, I presume to Violet, lived with us for years and we never knew her history. TP Thanks.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: iolaus on Friday 01 April 16 15:12 BST (UK)
I would guess at the 'missing' child to be Doris Blackbourn, born in Scarborough in the March quarter 1904 and died in the same quarter aged 0
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Friday 01 April 16 15:22 BST (UK)
Not sure who you mean. Lily Bell gave from the North and Violet was married to a Bell, who lived next door. (spidermonkey results). Can you be more specific? Many thanks for your interest. Tom
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: iolaus on Friday 01 April 16 15:26 BST (UK)
Spidermonkey mentions Gertrude and Frank had 4 children by 1911 but only 3 were living at the time of the census - therefore 1 had died.

Without looking for records I would have guessed this child fitted between Elsie and Gertrude's births due to the age gap - and when looking came across Doris Blackbourn who died shortly after birth in 1904 - so would have been around 7 had she lived
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 01 April 16 15:28 BST (UK)
Good one Iolaus!
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Friday 01 April 16 15:44 BST (UK)
Very interesting. It is all like magic to me, sitting here and matching it to photographs.  From the WW1 badges and your information, I have been able to name random photographs. You are making these people live!  Thank you.  ;D
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 01 April 16 16:33 BST (UK)
Not sure if this is 'your' Lily Bell, or an absolute coincidence, but on the 1939 register, there is a Lily Bell with the correct birthday, working as a ladies maid and residing at 29 Weymouth St, Manchester.

Also living at 29 Weymouth St on the 1939 register was a young actress called Sonia Dresdel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Dresdel

ETA - on further investigation, I don't think this is 'your' Lily Bell - which is a shame  ;)
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 01 April 16 17:12 BST (UK)
Violet Wilkinson married Thomas Bell in Sept qtr 1910. Lily Bell was born in Mar qtr 1911, and from the 1911 census we can see that she was 3 months old when the) census was taken (start of April).  (Does suggest that Violet and Thomas anticipated their marriage vows slightly  ;))

They had 4 children, I think: Lily, Susannah (bn 1912, poss died 1913), Reuben bn 1914 and Thomas W bn 1915.

Violet died Sept qtr 1918, aged 26. 

I think that Thomas Bell marries again to Ann Tuck in 1922.  On the 1939 register, Thomas, Ann, THomas W, Jane L Tuck (presumably Ann's daughter from a previous marriage) and another person (presumed to be living, and so blanked out from our view) are living at 48 Bank St, Leeds.
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Friday 01 April 16 17:40 BST (UK)
I agree! Lily living as a ladies' maid would have been a delight given the actress! We have always been somewhat mystified by Lily. From a photo, I can see she was a very beautiful young woman. She lived with us and I could never quite understand who she was.  We were told she had a sad life. We thought subsequently that Lily was made an orphan at an early age and was cared for by various members of the family including living with us in Scarborough for some time.  She babysat for the children of Hannah and William Procter, taking them to an air-raid shelter during the war.  There are memories of her hiding in the chimney arch for shelter.
I understand  Lily married a guardsman called Colin Graham who treated her badly and deserted her whilst she was pregnant for a woman in Scotland. The baby was stillborn. She later married a shot firer called Ernie Todd and was happy with him but he died quite early on.
She always lived in Scarborough and was a regular visitor to the Procter family. In later life, she was an eccentric, unwilling to spend money on decent food and heat for herself even though she could. She never got over being abandoned
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Hotice56 on Friday 01 April 16 20:38 BST (UK)
Tom that is so sad x
Title: Re: Thomas Procter, Trafalgar Hotel, Scarborough
Post by: Tepe on Saturday 02 April 16 12:46 BST (UK)
We have a photo of a cycling champion, who appears to be called Frederick Mollon. From what spidermonkey found earlier, he must be a son of Agnes.

I have had a reply from the archivist of the Ajax, as we have a photo of an unknown family member who was on this ship at the time of the River Plate battle. No idea yet who he is, Procter or Wilkinson.  TP