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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Betty19 on Sunday 03 April 16 10:13 BST (UK)
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Morning All
I am going to track down a relative who is buried in the Woodgrange Cemetary in Manor Park London
I hear it is in disrepair and over 15,000 graves dug up to make way for a block of flats . It is really shocking . Has anyone been there recently? Just how bad is it ?
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Depending on how recently your relative was buried there, there is, as you have seen, a good chance the grave will no longer exist. I've not been there personally but I know a distant relative was trying to locate some of her relatives buried there in the early 1900s and found that the graves had been reused in the 1990s. I don't from memory think this was to do with building work that took place there, but just early reuse of graves. :-\ These were private graves with memorials so unfortunately I suspect there is a good chance your relative's grave may no longer exist. I've a couple of relatives buried there as we have the memorial cards, from 1918 and 1919 respectively, and I doubt the graves still exist but can't say for sure.
It might be worth approaching the Cemetery and see if they can give you an idea if the grave does still exist, although how helpful they may be I couldn't say as have never tried contacting them, but when I contacted another of the cemeteries in the area by email, they didn't bother to respond to a quick question even though I'd been told they had previously been known to be helpful. :-X
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an old topic here
http://londoncemeteries.co.uk/2011/05/04/woodgrange-park-cemetery-2/
a youtube video here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDi2RwTXXag
and a link to the Friends of Woodgrange Park, who might be able to help or point you in the right direction
http://www.fowpc.co.uk/
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That is a real shame , I am going anyway just to see for myself she was born in 1881 but lived a long life and was buried in 1963 so fingers crossed .
Thank you for your help
What makes them decide to reuse the grave? is it the age ??
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I live in Suffolk so it is a bit of a journey to Woodgrange , but I would gladly volunteer to look after a grave local to me in exchange for someone looking after a relative's grave for me.
Does such a scheme exist I am sure if more people were aware of these Cemeteries falling into disrepair they would volunteer their services?
Anyone who has a relative buried near me who is unable to tend the grave I am volunteering my services . Searching for a relative only to discover their last resting place has gone or falling into disrepair is a sad ending.
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I have relatives in Woodgrange and was told that the last time any family visited, it was overgrown and impossible to locate the grave.
Very interested in hearing any more recent update on the situation.
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I am hoping to travel down this week so will let you know how I get on
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I have just come back from Woodgrange Park cemetery Manor Park.
Words fail me, I can not describe how terrible the condition of most of the older graves are as it would not do the level of destruction justice
It is sad .
MY ADVISE IS, IF YOU HAVE A RELATIVE BURIED THERE AND YOU WANT THE GRAVE TO STAY PUT THEN YOU MUST GO DOWN ASAP AND MAINTANT IT.
ANY GRAVE THAT IS NOT MAINTAINED WILL GO .
THERE IS CLEARLY NO MONEY TO BE MADE FROM THE LONG DEAD.
my Great Gran was buried there in 1963 her grave was attended up until her children died. Then her Grandchildren came sporadically , then they all moved away from the area and left it to long , and now it has gone .
SHE WAS DUG UP AND PUT IN A MASS GRAVE
AND THE LAND SOLD FOR FLATS.
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I have a grave number: it is 1846 / 27
I do not know where to find an index that wold enable this plot to be identified.
If anyone who is going there is able to identify this plot (don't worry if you cannot ... but if you can ... ) please could you take a quick look and report back on whether it appears still to be there and in what condition, whether there is a legible memorial etc.
If there IS a legible memorial ... my relatives in that grave (there are at least three of them) should have the surname Burrows.
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How long has it been since anyone attended the grave
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I wish I had known yesterday I would have looked for you
I get the impression that they would really rather people did not attend the older graves as they can then sell the plot on .
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Information now found ... square 27, where my ancestors were buried, was in a block that was cleared in about 1984 and is now a muslim burial area. No idea where the remains or the memorial stone have gone.
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I am so sorry, that is a terrible shame the only new graves are Muslim graves . The only work being done in the Cemetary is the clearance of the old to make way for the new . Like I said no money in old bones.
And then in amongst all the discarded headstones and brambles you get a few graves were the relatives are still around but it will not be long before they are all gone .
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Betty -
I have no living relatives who knew three out of my four ancestors who were buried there (two great x3 grandparents and two great great grandparents). My great aunt, who is now 81, knew the last of them (her grandmother) and used to tend the grave. But she lives in Kent now and cannot make the journey.
I was prepared for something like this ... I have seen a letter from a first cousin once removed to my great aunt, written some time ago, saying that the grave was overgrown and almost impossible to locate now ...
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Unfortunately reuse of graves, particularly in places like London where there is only finite space, is become all too common. With a number of the older original cemeteries designated nature reserves, more pressure is placed on reuse in those currently accepted burials. While I appreciate the reason behind this designation, in the case of some which are seriously overgrown (Camberwell Old being one I have seen), it does make you wonder whether this really is a suitable use of finite burial space.
My great grandparents grave in Camberwell New is apparently now on the reuse list because it was 75 years since the last internment this February, in spite of it being purchased on a 100 year lease. More recent graves there are by default apparently only 50 years long, unless you pay for it to be extended up to 100 years and if you don't live in the borough, it is very expensive. We were advised that we could pay to become grave owner to replace my Great Aunt who died in 1972, but we worked out that it would probably cost us about £170 or so to do this because of obtaining the necessary documents and getting them notarised for proof that we were her descendants (she died without issue and her surviving sister was probably the beneficiary, and my father and his brother were the sister's beneficiary). Then all we could do would be to object to the reuse for another 19 years until the 100 year lease expires. We decided it just wasn't worth it.
Obviously this applies to a Local Authority cemetery but I suspect the rules are the same for privately owned cemeteries such as Woodgrange, or of course they could be even more restrictive. Unfortunately the edict issued by the Mayor of London a few years back allowing cemeteries to reuse graves after 75 years even on a 100 year lease means that many will get reused earlier than expected. However, I think the 50 year initial lease on graves started in the 1960s or sometime around then, so their reuse is even earlier unless someone pays to extend it to 100 years.
My grandparents are also in Camberwell New, my grandfather died in 1944 and my grandmother in 1996, so there is 28 years until that grave will be reused, albeit she will only have been in there 48 years when it is. :-\
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Smudwhisk, I have the following info from Family Search - possibly my great great Grandmother!
I had emailed the Camberwell Register Office and the Cemeteries people to enquiry about it, - only the Register office replied " we have no record of this person" - I had also asked them to look for the spelling of the as either Name Mathews or Matthews
Mary Jane Matthews
England and Wales Death Registration Index 1837-2007
Name Mary Jane Matthews
Event Type Death
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration Year 1872
Registration District Camberwell
County London
Event Place Camberwell, London, England
Volume 1D
Page 369
Line Number 229
I thought it was strange that they had no record, when the details in the above are so clear! The year matched well too, as I have her in Stockwell in the 1871 census, and on her husband's 1873 death certificate (he died at sea) he is stated to be a widower! Crazy!
It's such a shame that old cemeteries are falling into disrepair, or "disappearing " I suppose that's understandable in some ways, but surely even some kind of register should be made up of the graves that have been demolished or moved in the name of progress!
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There is burial for a Mary Jane Matthews 25 Oct 1872 at Camberwell Old within the registers on www.deceasedonline.com. They have the cemetery registers for Southwark Borough, and Lewisham and others. They are free to search and you get the burial date, you only pay to get a copy of the burial register.
Edit - you probably will get an address on the burial register. My 2xGreat Grandmother was buried in there in 1888 and there is an address for her. This may help confirm if it is the correct person.
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Judging by the fact there are 21 other internments in the grave, it would appear to be a public grave, not necessarily what would be called a paupers grave as from what I've read about multiple occupancy graves in London and I've relatives in quite a few where there are multiple internments.
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That's amazing that if it is my Mary Jane, she's in a multiple grave! This was quite a wealthy family, and where they were living in Lambeth in 1871 census is now a lovely listed building in the Conservation Area of Stockwell! Maybe the cemetery was already getting filled up!
I so wish I'd had this record before I visited UK last year, when I went to Stockwell to see the house! So yes, I do have the address, it was 14 Burnley Road - Lambeth area in the 1871 census.
So I'm off to check it out! Thanks so much for that! I'll let you know how it goes!
Jeanne
Just modifying to add - I'm going to do it in the morning, when I'm a bit fresher! I'd hate to add a couple of 00's to the payment for the Burial Register entry!
Especially if she turns out not to be my Mary Jane! 😱😱
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Probably wise to leave until the morning. I think the minimum payment for credits is £5 which will get you 2.5 burials, but the credits last for 6 months and can be extended by purchasing more anyway.
I suspect the reason for a multiple grave was lack of money to purchase a private one. I've one buried in Camberwell Old in 1902 in a semi-private grave, there are only two people buried in it, although the other person isn't a relative. A great grandmother was buried in a multi-occupancy grave in 1907 in Manor Park, yet the family weren't that hard up (owned their own business) so it was a bit of a shock when we found out. Since then I've found quite a few in such graves, some were poor, others less so. I suspect they may have placed less value on private graves when money wasn't that flush than perhaps we do now. I know when her husband and his second wife died in the 1960s they were in a grave with four others, but it was private as all were family, with the earliest buried there in the 1940s being the daughter from the second marriage.
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smudwhisk
even though you can't take control of the grave, have you asked the cemetery office to keep your details on file so that they know someone in the family is aware of the grave? Maybe write to them with a recorded delivery letter and ask for a receipt from them when they have read it.
The cemeteries re-use graves where they can prove that they have made efforts to contact living relaties and can't find anyone. This would therefore not be the case for this plot.
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It's already been established that the Mary Jane Matthews who died Dec qtr 1872 Camberwell, was age 0.
Very likely relates to the 25 October burial record at Camberwell Old Cemetery.
Burial registers for Woodgrange Park Cemetery 1894 to 1971 can also be seen on microfilm at the London Family History Centre (currently situated at TNA, Kew)
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smudwhisk
even though you can't take control of the grave, have you asked the cemetery office to keep your details on file so that they know someone in the family is aware of the grave? Maybe write to them with a recorded delivery letter and ask for a receipt from them when they have read it.
The cemeteries re-use graves where they can prove that they have made efforts to contact living relaties and can't find anyone. This would therefore not be the case for this plot.
Dawn, Southwark have said they can only update contact details for the grave if we agree to pay for the transfer of ownership. :-\ Dad has been in contact with them via email to ask who they had as contact and it was his Aunt who died in 1972, and, as they only have her maiden name, the only address they probably have for her is probably the old family home which was sold about 1946. If that isn't actually the case legally, then it suggests they are trying to avoid updating contact details so that they can reuse it. They have confirmed that the original lease was a 100 years from 1935 when my great grandfather died but they have confirmed they are working to the requirement that if either the lease has expired or 75 years have passed since the last burial, they will reuse it unless we agree to pay for transfer of ownership and register an objection (which I suspect they'll try and charge us for too if the truth be known).
Do you know if there are any statutory rules or something similar relating to this that we could quote at them to try and get Dad made contact for the grave please?
The annoying thing is that about a dozen graves further along the same row is my grandparent's grave (my grandfather was the son and nephew of the other three buried in the other grave and he died in 1944) and they will have contact details for that one, namely my Uncle as he will have arranged interrment of my grandmother's ashes when she died in 1996.
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It's already been established that the Mary Jane Matthews who died Dec qtr 1872 Camberwell, was age 0.
Very likely relates to the 25 October burial record at Camberwell Old Cemetery.
Woops, well spotted, save's Jeanne purchasing some credits for nothing.
Burial registers for Woodgrange Park Cemetery 1894 to 1971 can also be seen on microfilm at the London Family History Centre (currently situated at TNA, Kew)
If the family resided in Stockwell as Jeanne has said, they're unlikely I would have thought to have been buried in Woodgrange as its right across the other side of the city. More likely in Camberwell, Nunhead or another in the area, unless a previous burial at Woodgrange exists and she would have been taken there.
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I too have family there impossible to find, Woodgrange is privately owned, I have be told that they do what they like, there does not seem to be any rules about this. Councils although they do sell space in unattended graves leave the original burials there, as per my g/grandparents
Does anyone know if there are any regulations in private burial areas.
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I think Woodgrange may be an special case, possibly because its not very large.
Manor Park is, from memory, also privately owned but they've not reused a relatives 4 person grave where the last burial was in 1910 (the first in the last 1880s), or they hadn't by the end of 2014 when my parent's were down in the area for another funeral and went had photographed it.
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Although you will not have rights to the grave in 19 years time, if push came to shove, you might find the grave moved down the list of those ear-marked for re-use as the cemetery office have been in correspondence with you and know you exist. There must be others that can be re-used before yours.
I've found a parliamentary pdf online but I can't attach it here, I'll send it to you by pm.
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Thanks Dawn, much appreciated.
We're not really bothered about 19 years time, would just be nice to see if we can perhaps delay the reuse now as it was taken out on a 100 year lease.
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My Great Nan was in the cheap seats, last one in a communal plot she died in 1963 That is not an old grave, she should have had longer .
I think If she had known the fate of her old bones she would have been cremated .
After seeing was has happened a WoodGrange I am definitely going to be cremated .
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I suspect the communal multi-occupancy graves have no lease as such, just as and when they decide to reuse them. There may be rules but with a private cemetery, I suspect anything is possible unfortunately. ::)
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It's already been established that the Mary Jane Matthews who died Dec qtr 1872 Camberwell, was age 0.
Very likely relates to the 25 October burial record at Camberwell Old Cemetery.
Woops, well spotted, save's Jeanne purchasing some credits for nothing.
Omigosh - sorry - I definitely have egg on my face! Just looked back for that and it's only a week or so since that was posted! Talk about short term memory loss! Just as well I left it till this morning! I have also just seen another recent post that I missed re her possible death in Ireland. (She may well have been visiting as her family was from that area).
I've looked at so many deaths for her, and had so much help from here with this Mathews family of mine and I think I need to let this one go after I try the Irish one.
Thank you for your help!
I will also order myself a brain scan!!🤗
Jeanne
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Locate - local to you - Family History Centre of the Church of The Later Day Saints. They have records of burials at Wood Grange Park Cemetery. Hundreds of graves were destroyed and bodies exhumed to allow for residential building. They were reburied in a mass grave in an area called the Garden of Remembrance. The Friends of Woodgrange Park Cemetery would be delighted to hear from anyone prepared to devote a few hours to make this Garden look as those poor souls who were disturbed are being remembered.