RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: dairydairy on Friday 08 April 16 18:33 BST (UK)
-
Hello everybody!
I am trying to help a friend whose ancestors possibly hailed from Sweden. Her mother did a lot of research (without computers!) before she died ten years ago and my friend would love to be able to get some answers.
My friend's great grandfather was Charles Oscar Sundernan and his marriage certificate (married 18th July 1888 at St Anne, Limehouse) said that he was 25, a Bachelor, a Mariner and that his father was Charles August Sundernan (deceased) who had been a musician. A witness to the marriage was M Ammunsen. Charles Oscar married Alice Meddemen and they were married by Licence (Charles had applied for the licence on 16th July 1888).
The 1891 census says that he was born in Sweden. The 1901 census says that he was from Fuidland (Finland??) and then says British Subject. A note in the margin says Russia. The 1911 census says that he was born in Sweden and says that he was Swedish rather than a British subject.
His surname changes and eventually the family have the name Sandeman which was my friend's mother's maiden name.
I have no idea where to go with this as none of us can speak or read Swedish! I think that this is an impossible ask - is there anyone who can help?
We would all be very grateful.
Catherine
-
Hi Catherine,
Hmm, this isn't easy.
Was he from Sweden or Finland? The reason I think he wrote both was that he was probably undecided. Finland at that time had many areas where Swedish speaking people lived. They probably thought themselves Swedish although living in Finland. There is an island between Sweden and Finland called Åland. It belongs to Finland but the language is Swedish.
I have found a Sundman family on the island from Saltvik Parish that seems to fit your Charles Oscar. The father is a painter (not a musician) Carl August Sundman and he died in 1875.
I have managed to follow him to Stockholm, Sweden. In 1875 he moved there with his mother and then he seems to have disappeared around 1880.
There is a record of a Merchant seaman Carl Oscar Sundman on Ancestry from 1883 being paid in London from Glasgow on the ship Queen of the Fleet. This could be him.
Carl Oscar Vladimir Sundman Birth on 19 Sept 1862: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=9262318
Karl August Sundman Death on 9 Feb 1875: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=9445439
Sundman Family 1855: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=9274363
Sundman Family 1869: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=9274662
Carl Oscar and Mother moving form Saltvik to Stockholm: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=9445681 (Nr 11 and 12 right hand side)
If you go to this site: http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Rotemannen2012/Search.aspx and write 1862-09-19 in Date of Birth and Sundman in Lastname you will get 2 hits for Carl Oscar. On the left hand side there is a view source to see the record. Unfortunately only the first hit works.
This does look like to be your Charles.
Ian
-
Hi
Any reflections?
Ian
-
Hello Ian
I am so sorry that it has taken me such a long time to reply. I came down with the most horrible throat virus and have felt terrible. Consequently, I have been unable to think about any genealogy stuff. However, now that I am feeling better and have had a chance to properly look at your reply (for which I thank you greatly), I really think that you could have hit the mark! The only thing that worries me is that the signature on the Wages does not look the same as that on the Marriage Licence that I have but, then again, neither looks the same as that on the 1911 census! Perhaps I should not get myself too hung up on signatures? Other than that, I think it looks very exciting. I think that there are too many coincidences for it not to be the right family.
Are you of Swedish descent? I have competencies in various languages but cannot make head nor tail of Swedish!!
I am really grateful to you for your help in this. I spoke to my friend today and she is really excited that a part of the mystery of that side of her family might have been uncovered! :)
Best wishes
Catherine
-
By the way, Ian, if you can read Swedish - can you tell me what the registers actually say?
Catherine
-
Cheers Catherine.
I am not Swedish and Swedish is my second language. I'll get back to you about the registers.
Ian
-
Sorry to bother you again, Ian. I have just found a piece of paper written by my friend's late mother which implies that Carl Oscar had a sister called Christina who married somebody called Anderson and emigrated to America. That is the first that I have seen of this person. However, Christina was my friend's mother's name and it does appear to be a name that has carried down (Charles Oscar and Alice Meddemmen also had a daughter called Christina.
Best wishes
Catherine
-
The only thing that worries me is that the signature on the Wages does not look the same as that on the Marriage Licence that I have but, then again, neither looks the same as that on the 1911 census! Perhaps I should not get myself too hung up on signatures?
I actually think the 2 signatures from the marriage certificate and the wage record are the same. If you look at Oscar they look to be the same style. Even the "S" in Sundman is similar.
I don't think the name on the 1911 census is a signature.
Ian
-
can you tell me what the registers actually say?
Carl Oscar Vladimir Sundman Birth on 19 Sept 1862: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=9262318:
Born 19 April. Baptised 23 April. Parents from Ofvanåker - Painter C. August Sundman and wife Anna Stina Ersdotter.
Godparents: Farmer Johan Ericsson with wife Anna Lisa Carlsdotter och dotter Ann Matilda, Farmer Matts Jansson with
wife Vilhelmina Ersdotter and farmhand Carl Victor Ericsson. Baptised at Bestgården by Magnus.
Karl August Sundman Death on 9 Feb 1875: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=9445439:
Died 9 Feb and buried 21 Feb. Ofvanåker nr 9. Painter Carl August Sundman. 60 years 1 month and 18 days old. Died of tuberculosis.
Sundman Family 1855: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=9274363:
Födelse: Birth
År och Datum: Year and Date
Ort: Town
Kommen ifrån: Come from - form which book and page
Koppor: Smallpox - if vaccinated or not
Läsning: Reading
I Bok: from Book
Utur Minnet: from memory
ABC Bok:
Luth. Cat.: Martin Luther
Ilustaflan A. Symbol: Illustrations
Spörsmål: Questions
Förstår: Understanding
Vid Läsförhör Tillstädas: When examination was done
Nattvardsgång: Communion
Ian
-
Thanks again, Ian. Really helpful. I have passed all of this on to my friend and she is so grateful. Her only regret is that her mother, who had done so much work on her tree, is not around to hear all this new information. My friend and her sisters now plan to visit Saltvik and, with the most recent details from the registers, can even look for Ofvanaker. You have been brilliant - thank you again.
Catherine
-
Hi Catherine,
I have just been doing a bit of research on my ancestors, and googled why my great grandfathers place of birth might say Fuidland brit subject with Russia in the margin on the 1901 census as I thought he was Swedish. His name was Charles Sandeman.....so lo and behold I think I may have the same great grandfather as your friend. My grandmother was Christina who married Charles (previously Cesare as he was Italian) .
I know that generally we are more related than we think, and so maybe it is not that surprising, but if your friend were interested in sharing any information, or just having an email conversation or something, let me know!
Suzie
-
Hello again,
Reading my dad's memoirs (he is still alive but decided to try and write about his early life) he talks about his Cousin Christine, and playing piano with her. He also talks of her marriage to John "Jay" Taylor and how he inspired him to study physics and maths (he worked as a university lecturer in Cambridge so it stood him well!). I understand that your friends mother died which is sad as I'm sure my Dad (Ron) would have loved to have made contact again. If she did think that it was the same person it would be lovely to tell Dad of how Christine's family had fared, so feel free to respond and maybe we could have a conversation. Obviously I may have got the wrong end of the stick as to who everyone is but you never know!
regards
Suzie
-
hi my grandad was Charles Oscar sandeman his father was born in Sweden Oscar Theodore my dad is Lesley david, one on five children his mother,my nona, was crimane(I don't think this is correct spelling ) maria josafina Ferrari her parents came from Italy in 1890 their home was Roggio in Tuscany, beautiful!! Cesare was Nonas father( I think) we do have and Italian family tree, and contact with the Italian branch of family most, are in uk, but are a bit thin on the Scottish /Swedish side, my dad thinks that his fathers family being seafarers from Scotland went to Sweden or Denmark eventually ending up in the east end where he was born, his father, my grandad worked on the docks (east india )i believe but I can check this out as Dad is still with us. hope this is helpful Barbara
-
Further to my previous message my grandfathers family came from the oland island in Sweden looks like we are related, also just as an aside my dad taught chemistry and physics, ( after he got too tired to do PE!!) and grandad was great von piano as was uncle Reg, Dads other brother Len went to Canada, married a Canadian girl and was an artist out there, sadly died, earlier this year, he has three children there David Lesley and Geof, his other brother Cyril was a radio operator during the was and was lost at sea , Aunty Iris, his sister, was also a teacher, Dad is only one of siblings living and he is 95, he stays with me at weekends so I will show him this if he has any more info I will forward it. by the way there are three of us, me ,Mary and Anthony also my cousin Lesley, whos is Iris's daughter and Peter, Regs son. I imagine we must be related !Barbara