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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Indiana.59 on Friday 08 April 16 23:10 BST (UK)
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I have a RC marriage of an Alexander Shaw and an Isabella McIntosh ~ I need every word to be deciphered to see if it give me any extra clues to things that might be important to me . . .
Many thanks in advance . . . : )
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Hi
I can't read all of it , so will have to leave it although there are some very able people on here. I wondered if you had seen this site, Alexander Shaw gets a mention on there
http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp
claire
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A first try
Alexander Shaw Farmer Delichule lawful son of the late William Shaw Delichule and Euphemia Grant and Isabel Mc Intosh lawful daughter of Donato(?) Mc Intosh Auchinachan and Margaret Mc Intosh having produced a certificate (?) at the chapel in Tomintoul and at the Parish Kirk for three ?? and having been proclaimed at the chapel of Tomintoul and no objections?? were married in the presence of his Grace the Duke of Gordon, Rev Charles Mc Pherson Minister Tomintoul ????
The twenty first day of August eighteen hundred and twenty two by me (? )Carmichael Catholic clergyman
No doubt someone will be able to fill out the parts I have missed.
Regards Orkrad
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Can you confirm area please to help?
Orkrad, I think the "William Shaw Delichule and Euphemia Grant and Isabel Mc Intosh lawful daughter of Donato(?) Mc Intosh" may be more likely Donald?
Annie
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Yes I thought Donald for the bride's father was more likely too but I could not actually "see" that !
Orkrad
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Hi
I definitely think Donald, look at the 'd' at the end of Donald and then above at the word 'and' , the letter is very similar.
claire
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You've chopped the bottom off so presumably the signatures or their 'marks' are there.
I've had a try but have not gone over it to double check, so there are bound to be errors:
Alexander Shaw Farmer Dulichule? Lawful son of the late WilliamShaw Delichuke and Euohemia Geant, and Isabel McIntosh lawful daughter of Donald McIntosh Auchnafan? And Margaret McIntosh*
Having produced in certificate of the proclamation of their forms? Of affect? For three consecutive Sun?days, at the Parish Kirk and having been res?ly proclaimed at the Chapel? Tom? and no objections offered were married in the presence of his Grace Duke of Gordon Ro?d Charles? McPherson ? Minister of Jan? .? Alexr Mc?fry Laggango?e and of the parish of ? The twenty first day of August eighteen hndred and thirty two years? By me Thomas? Carmichael Catholic Clergyman
*presumably McIntosh is her maiden as well as married name?
Another reading I'm sure will clarify some of my question marks, but I have to go out shortly. :)
Added: I see I am late to the party anyway. ;)
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The "d" is looped to the left which crosses over the "l" making the "l" look like a "t" ;)
Not sure if this enhancement will help?
Annie
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WOW and thanks I have been looking at that marriage certificate over and over and now all of you have made it so ashamedly simple and had given me the clues I so needed to see where Isabella McIntosh father was coming from . . .
Life is getting so much harder reading inscriptions such as those the further you go back in time . . .
Was their marriage really in the presence of the "Duke of Gordon" I wonder . . .
Many thanks to all the effort you have all put in . . . : )
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'proclamation of their forms of marriage'
'and having been regularly proclaimed at the Chapel of Tomintoul'
Agree 'Thomas Carmichael'.
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There is no reason why the Duke of Gordon should not have been there. I don't know the area ( apart from the fact that it is in the Highlands of Scotland ) but it is just possible that they were married on a Sunday when the whole parish would have been attending Mass the local Duke included !.
However I see that there was a Presbyterian minister as well as a Catholic priest at the service so that may tell quite a different story. It would be interesting to follow this one up. Isn't family history exciting?
Orkrad.
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Hi
I definitely think Donald, look at the 'd' at the end of Donald and then above at the word 'and' , the letter is very similar.
claire
I agree that the last two letters are "ld", with the whole name reading "Donald"
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Thanks Orkrd
"However I see that there was a Presbyterian minister as well as a Catholic priest at the service so that may tell quite a different story" . . .
Thought I was going mad there . . . : )
I Found this on the net . . .
From a reader:
My question: Is it permissible for a Protestant minister to officiate the Marriage Rite at a Catholic Nuptial Mass? This is about to take place at our local parish and our pastor stated that as long as he witnesses (watches) the vows, it is okay?
Reply
It would not be possible for a non-Catholic minister to receive the vows of a couple at a Catholic nuptial Mass.
Depending on the diocesan laws and customs, and subject to the norms of the 1993 Ecumenical Directory, there might be some place for the non-Catholic minister in the nuptial Mass – processing in, sitting in the sanctuary, even standing (silently) with the Catholic priest while he, the priest, receives the vows of both parties, offering congratulations to the couple on behalf of his ecclesial community at the end of the nuptial Mass.
If the Protestant minister “officiates” at the marriage rite while the Catholic priest merely “witnesses” the vows being exchanged, we have a likely case of the marriage being null due to a defect of canonical form.
Now we know . . . : )
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I think that the farm of the McIntoshes is most likely Auchriachan and the witness was Alexr. McHardy of Lagganvoulin.
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"Elo Periwinkled
Oooh thanks for that - I can only presume they all took it in turns to live in each other's tack as they seem to all had a turn at Auchriachan and Lagganvoulin including our lot - there is a lass on here who now own's Lagganvoulin as a holiday home - Alex McHardy is interesting to me because if I am right he would be from Strathdon or Inchrory possible father William McHardy - My step is to go up to Tomintoul and check out a few graves with a few of my rellies in Tomintoul kirkyard and see all the tacks they once all lived in . . .
Thanks for the extra information as we sometimes forget the witnesses to a wedding and I did not know where Isobel McIntosh was from - so thanks for that . . .
Kind regards
Indiana . . .
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Have you leafed through 'Highland Legends' by Glenmore (Donald Shaw)? You can get a transcription or scanned PDF online. Gives some colour to the characters and landscape of Inchrory and Strathavon and has a fascinating list of names and addresses of all the sponsors.
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From VRs...
SHAW ALEXANDER Tenant Occupier
FARM OF DELLACHOUL
KIRKMICHAEL (BANFF)
1855
VR009100002-
Proprietor was RICHMOND DUKE... "(Charles Henry Gordon-Lennox, 10th Duke of Richmond, 10th Duke of Lennox, 10th Duke of Aubigny, 5th Duke of Gordon"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Richmond
Annie
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I think that the farm of the McIntoshes is most likely Auchriachan and the witness was Alexr. McHardy of Lagganvoulin.
By 1855...
MACKARDY GEORGE (probably related to witness Alexander McHardy)?
Tenant Occupier
FARM OF MAINS OF ACHRIACHAN, KIRKMICHAEL (BANFF)
VR009100002-
Valuation Rolls begin 1855
Annie
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Which reminds me that there was a similar-sounding small farm in Strathavon, Dailchaoil. It's one of the furthest farms up the glen, Dalestie is the only one I can think of which is higher other than Inchrory, which has always been a shooting lodge.
There was still a McHardy in Auchriachan until the mid 1980s!
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Plenty of info. from Mr Go ogle using...McHardy in Auchriachan
Annie
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Elo Periwinkled
Interesting - he's in one of the graves at Tomintoul - with his dad Donald - so that was another grave I wanted to check out and get photos of - according to Lachlan Shaw the historian we are of the Alistar Kair McIntosh/Shaw line who ended up in Inchrory - but yet to get any connection if we are from the direct line to Glenmore (Donald Shaw) or his dad Donald - its all in the pipeline to check on - Glenmore (Donald Shaw) was born in the 1800's so if we are related it is as off root - but still Inchrory - my grt grandfather x4 William Shaw was born 1753/54 of all his four children (and this now links to the next post from Rosinish my grt grandfather x3 is Alexander Shaw son to William) . . .
The four children of William all called their 1st son Donald - so it is from this I am presuming William Shaw born 1753/54 father is called Donald . . .
So to be related to Donald Shaw father to Glenmore (Donald Shaw) I would have to go further back . . .
I know there was a lot of movement of the Shaw's - so pinpointing them is an open door as to who is who . . .
What does interest me - one of Alexander's my grt grandfather x3 sons also called Alexander Shaw himself seems to still be at Delachule as it is called now in 1915 - but the actual stone farm got burnt down and they were given a bit of land right across from Delachule where they put up a portacabin to live in with a view of rebuilding the farm - but it never happened - this also just a couple of years also burnt out like Delachule has a curse . . .
What I wanted to know is just when the original stone farm of Delachule burnt down - why did it happen and was anyone killed in the fire - after all those were my folks . . .
I also wonder why Glenmore (Donald Shaw) and his father were buried at Tomintoul if they were from Inchrory according to the book Glenmore (Donald Shaw) moved to a place just up from Aviemore . . .
All makes for interesting stuff . . .
Cheers . . .
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Which reminds me that there was a similar-sounding small farm in Strathavon, Dailchaoil. It's one of the furthest farms up the glen, Dalestie is the only one I can think of which is higher other than Inchrory, which has always been a shooting lodge.
There was still a McHardy in Auchriachan until the mid 1980s!
Wow . . .
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Plenty of info. from Mr Go ogle using...McHardy in Auchriachan
Annie
Thanks Annie i will try that out . . . :)
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Which reminds me that there was a similar-sounding small farm in Strathavon, Dailchaoil. It's one of the furthest farms up the glen, Dalestie is the only one I can think of which is higher other than Inchrory, which has always been a shooting lodge.
There was still a McHardy in Auchriachan until the mid 1980s!
My Grt grandmother x4 Euphemia Grant who was married to my William Shaw died there - then after a female McGregor - we are also related to the McGregors of Guilrigg (which brings in the Gregor "Willox" McGregor) and the Grants of Findon Farm where Euphemia Grant was before she married but I have yet to find her birth or father . . .
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There is no reason why the Duke of Gordon should not have been there. I don't know the area ( apart from the fact that it is in the Highlands of Scotland ) but it is just possible that they were married on a Sunday when the whole parish would have been attending Mass the local Duke included !.
However - I see that there was a Presbyterian minister as well as a Catholic priest at the service so that may tell quite a different story. It would be interesting to follow this one up. Isn't family history exciting?
Orkrad.
I checked the date it wasn't a Sunday - it was I think a Tuesday or Wednesday - but being Catholics maybe he attended church every day - other that I heard from my grt grandfather he often came to Delachule so no idea there . . . ;)
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Using the quotes, google..
"Dellachoul Shaw, Donald S, Milton Smith, Geo"
which is banffshire year book 1898
Annie
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Elo Periwinkled
I also wonder why Glenmore (Donald Shaw) and his father were buried at Tomintoul if they were from Inchrory according to the book Glenmore (Donald Shaw) moved to a place just up from Aviemore . . .
Inchrory would have been consisdered as in the parish of Kirkmichael as it is on the banks of the Avon. Glenmore is just over the mountains from Inchrory, 12 miles or so as the eagle flies and they would have both been very remote in the mid 19th Century. If I was a Shaw of Inchrory I wouldn't want to be buried too far from the Avon and the rest of my kin.
Interesting that you had people in Gaulrig, my 3x g grandmother was living there before marrying but she was a Cameron not a McGregor. I haven't investigated the Camerons who came before her yet.
I'll ask mum or my uncle if they remember the original Delachule burning down, but it probably happened after they left the village, so they won't remember unless someone was badly hurt.
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Elo Periwinkled
I also wonder why Glenmore (Donald Shaw) and his father were buried at Tomintoul if they were from Inchrory according to the book Glenmore (Donald Shaw) moved to a place just up from Aviemore . . .
Inchrory would have been consisdered as in the parish of Kirkmichael as it is on the banks of the Avon. Glenmore is just over the mountains from Inchrory, 12 miles or so as the eagle flies and they would have both been very remote in the mid 19th Century. If I was a Shaw of Inchrory I wouldn't want to be buried too far from the Avon and the rest of my kin.
Interesting that you had people in Gaulrig, my 3x g grandmother was living there before marrying but she was a Cameron not a McGregor. I haven't investigated the Camerons who came before her yet.
I'll ask mum or my uncle if they remember the original Delachule burning down, but it probably happened after they left the village, so they won't remember unless someone was badly hurt.
Well - Periwinkled, putting it that way I could not be happier if no one can remember the fire - if it meant everyone was ok . . . :)
Camerons - in 1795 my grt grandfather x4 William Shaw 1st son Donald was born at Dalynlion just across the river from Delachule - no relation here but one of the sponsors was a Lilly Cameron . . .
Note just above the birth of Donald at Dalnlyon in 1795 the Stuart living in Delachule prior to our lot moving in some years later . . .
Also while trying to find my grt grandfather x4 father William Shaw father presumed Donald I came across this in 1763 - a marriage of a Donald Shaw to a Janet Cameron . . .
The reason I have not quite dismissed this Donald Shaw as my grt grandfathers x4 father is I could not find any births from this marriage after 1763 and wondered if it could actually be a 2nd marriage - but as my grt grandfather x4 William Shaw presumed father Donald Shaw was born in 1753/54 the case is open on that one . . .
Cheers . . .
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Indiana 59, re your reply #12 about Protestant clergy officiating at a marriage of Catholics.
The information you quoted was a reply to a question posed in the 20th century. It's not relevant to a marriage which happened in the 19th century in Britain.
The official stance of Catholic Church regarding marriage of Catholics has changed several times during the past 500 years depending on era and country concerned.
Catholicism was an outlawed religion in Britain after the Reformation in 16th century until late 18th when concessions began. The Catholic Church recognised as valid marriages of Catholics which were conducted according to the civil law in the country in which they lived. Civil law relating to marriage in the 4 countries which constituted the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland varied in the 19th century and altered at different times.
It was in 1909 that the Catholic Church applied the Canon Law on marriage worldwide, requiring a Catholic to marry in the presence of a Catholic priest. R.C. marriage rules were modified in 1980s.
I'm not familiar with marriage customs of Catholics living in Scotland during 19thC because I don't know where my Scottish Catholic ancestors came from. My English Catholic ancestors who married between 1754 and 1837 generally had 2 wedding ceremonies. Only the marriage at the Anglican parish church was legal. They always had the Catholic ceremony first, usually the previous day. One couple had a gap of 6 weeks between ceremonies.
I hope this explains a complex subject.
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However I see that there was a Presbyterian minister as well as a Catholic priest at the service so that may tell quite a different story. It would be interesting to follow this one up. Isn't family history exciting?
As I understand it, from reading peoples' transcripts and peering at the image, Rev. Carmichael, the priest conducted the marriage, with the duke and the minister as witnesses. I wonder if this was how they normally did weddings. It would be interesting to see records of other marriages there around same time. Was the minister just keeping himself in favour with the Duke?
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However I see that there was a Presbyterian minister as well as a Catholic priest at the service so that may tell quite a different story. It would be interesting to follow this one up. Isn't family history exciting?
As I understand it, from reading peoples' transcripts and peering at the image, Rev. Carmichael, the priest conducted the marriage, with the duke and the minister as witnesses. I wonder if this was how they normally did weddings. It would be interesting to see records of other marriages there around the same time. Was the minister just keeping himself in favour with the Duke?
Aha - yes I did a check on the same scale and no this was the only one that came up like this - people will just not accept that the Duke and my grt grandfather x3 were, in fact, great buds . . . ;)
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Related thread for anyone interested in this family;
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=744158.27
Annie
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Indiana, Mum said the original Delachule burnt down sometime in the late 50s or 60s but was already abandoned and quite dilapidated.
When I get round to investigating the Camerons I may well be looking at your entry here again.
By the by, when my 2xg grandfather was baptised by Donald Carmichael at ceremony in 1826 (his parents are (Prots) in a Roman Catholic ceremony at the Cults, one of the sponsors was Alexr McKenzie of Dalchule which I think must be the Dalchoille I referred to earlier on in this thread as that is on the Avon. There is a baptism further down the page of Donald, son of William Shaw Milton of Inverourie, sponsors Alexr and Jane Shaw of Delichule, which must surely be the Delachule you are referring to on the Conglass so these must be your Shaws! On the parish register of the birth there is a Mary Shaw, wife of Archibald Stuart of Balchruicht, who had a son John. Also a Euphemia Shaw to Wm Shaw and his spouse Grace Stuart in Milltown of Inverourie. If these are also your Shaws and you don't have the image I can send to you.
Is it possible that the Duke of Gordon was at your Shaw's wedding because it was a good opportunity to meet many of his tenants? Tenants whom, incidentally, he was determined not to enfranchise - he bitterly opposed the Great Reform Bill and only weeks later was one of only 22 peers who opposed it in the House of Lords. It was passed and the resulting Reform Act gave the vote to any tenant paying at least £10 per annum rent. Certainly my 3xg grandfather would have qualified as he was paying £14 in 1809.
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Indiana, Mum said the original Delachule burnt down sometime in the late 50s or 60s but was already abandoned and quite dilapidated.
When I get round to investigating the Camerons I may well be looking at your entry here again.
By the by, when my 2xg grandfather was baptised by Donald Carmichael at ceremony in 1826 (his parents are (Prots) in a Roman Catholic ceremony at the Cults, one of the sponsors was Alexr McKenzie of Dalchule which I think must be the Dalchoille I referred to earlier on in this thread as that is on the Avon. There is a baptism further down the page of Donald, son of William Shaw Milton of Inverourie, sponsors Alexr and Jane Shaw of Delichule, which must surely be the Delachule you are referring to on the Conglass so these must be your Shaws! On the parish register of the birth there is a Mary Shaw, wife of Archibald Stuart of Balchruicht, who had a son John. Also a Euphemia Shaw to Wm Shaw and his spouse Grace Stuart in Milltown of Inverourie. If these are also your Shaws and you don't have the image I can send to you.
Is it possible that the Duke of Gordon was at your Shaw's wedding because it was a good opportunity to meet many of his tenants? Tenants whom, incidentally, he was determined not to enfranchise - he bitterly opposed the Great Reform Bill and only weeks later was one of only 22 peers who opposed it in the House of Lords. It was passed and the resulting Reform Act gave the vote to any tenant paying at least £10 per annum rent. Certainly my 3xg grandfather would have qualified as he was paying £14 in 1809.
Yus Periwinkled those are my rellies - possible that is Delachule - as there were more families on the land and we are connected to the McKenzies from Braemar - looking at the site map years ago there were more cottages on the land down by the river . . .
Great news on Delachule - that no one was in it - maybe someone just got sick of it laying there in disrepair and burnt it down . . .
The Duke was local with everyone - we have no claim to being special - he was happy to pop into all the farms locally - but my Alexander Shaw did game keeping for him and also attended Glen Mullie just across the river to the right of Delachule - where another Alexander Shaw resided - a retired Military man - who also had a son called William Shaw - no idea what the Duke's wife was like - but he was always happy to be down on the farm with the lads - he he he . . .
Confusing isn't it . . .
In regard of swapping certs - I will contact you with my e-mail address so you can tell just what surnames that relate to you to see if also I have on any of my lists to pass on . . .
Yes William Shaw was a brother to Alexander and he married a Grace Stuart daughter Euphemia Shaw named after her Grandmother Euphemia Grant . . .
It is all making for interesting stuff here and look forward to hearing more from your side too as everyone was linked one way or another back in the days . . .
And thanks for that bit of information on Delachule - good on your mum - cheers . . .
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Have you leafed through 'Highland Legends' by Glenmore (Donald Shaw)? You can get a transcription or scanned PDF online. Gives some colour to the characters and landscape of Inchrory and Strathavon and has a fascinating list of names and addresses of all the sponsors.
Hello Periwinkled
Donald *Glemore Shaw, from Inchrory, father was James Shaw, Wife Barbara Stuart, and is buried with his parents in Tomintoul, so we are in one way or another related, because at the bottom of the headstone it also says to William Shaw son-in-law, this William Shaw was son of William Shaw and Grace Stuart, brother to Alexander Shaw my greatgrandfather x 3, the witness to Alexander's wedding in 1832 was a Alexander McHardy, who someone on here has mentioned may also be from Inchrory, thus stenghting our family link to the family of Shaw's at Inchory, as to why the his Grace the Duke of Gordon was present at my great Grandfather wedding is still a mystery to me, as when checking on the Duke himself at that time period he was not a Catholic, leading me to believe he may in some way be connected to Isabel McIntoshes family in some way, her parents being Donald McIntosh and Margaret McIntosh . . .
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By the by, when my 2xg grandfather was baptised by Donald Carmichael at ceremony in 1826 (his parents are (Prots) in a Roman Catholic ceremony at the Cults, one of the sponsors was Alexr McKenzie of Dalchule which I think must be the Dalchoille I referred to earlier on in this thread as that is on the Avon. There is a baptism further down the page of Donald, son of William Shaw Milton of Inverourie, sponsors Alexr and Jane Shaw of Delichule, which must surely be the Delachule you are referring to on the Conglass so these must be your Shaws! On the parish register of the birth there is a Mary Shaw, wife of Archibald Stuart of Balchruicht, who had a son John. Also a Euphemia Shaw to Wm Shaw and his spouse Grace Stuart in Milltown of Inverourie. If these are also your Shaws and you don't have the image I can send to you.
Back again, Periwinkled
I have cut out most of the message to deal only where I stand now, Dec 2020 and greetings for the New Year . . . :)
Yes, all these connect, the sponsors Alexander and Jane Shaw are William Shaw's brother and sister, Donald was born 1795, William 1797 and Jane 1799, with my Alexander being born 1801, with William Shaw marrying Grace Stuart and residing at Milton of Inverourie, so any images you have on them would be gratefully received, thank you . . .
My quest here is in regard to whatever connection we to Alexander McKenzie now as it is not the first time this name has popped up . . .
I am forever looking to where William Shaw born 1753/54 was born, and no matter how I tried I only come with William Shaw born Gleneye to a Duncan Shaw, who had 3 sons, Donald, William and James, I believe there is another son Alexander Shaw too . . .
Anyway not to drag on . . .
First I have a baptism of a Duncan Shaw in 1722, father Donald Shaw, in Glenluy, in Braemer, Godfather Alexander McKenzie, commomly known as Alstar Bainn, so here I have a first mention of an Alexander McKenzie . . .
Secondly; I have a baptism of a William Shaw 1754, which I think is my William Shaw of Delnalyon, Tomintoul who married Euphemia Grant of Findon, Tomintoul in 1795 and moved into Delachule, I am not sure what is saying on the last line, father Duncan Shaw, mother Janet Downy, but; a Anne McKenzie alias Keir is mentioned . . .
So, that's 2 McKenzi'e up to now, but, on the marriage of Duncan Shaw to Janet Downy in Mickle, Inverey just south of Braemer, there is not alot said, but; further up the page we have a marriage of a Alexander McKenzie and a Janet Symon, and remembering Anne McKenzie here, both alias Keir . . .
So there seems to be a connection of the McKenzie's in Bramer and Tomintoul, leading me to believe this is my great Grandfather William Shaw x 3 parent’s line . . .
But; it doesn't stop there, I am sure when looking for Janet Downy, I think father John Downy, she was born Inverourie, but; being a bit green under the ears I thought this was Inverurie, Aberdeen and thinking what on earth, thats was a a journey and a half to meet your loved one to be, but; could it have been Inverourie as in Milltown of Inverourie, I now have to go through this all over again as I have packed up all my stuff with a view of moving in the New Year, but; it has left me wondering which Inverourie was it . . .
Anyway these images you have could come in handy now to try to bring everything together, strange to be there is a story I have to tell in regard of a William Shaw and Inverourie, I will put it up on rootschat on the *Totally off the topic, ghosts from the past and all . . . :o
Going back over the last couple of years all of this information would just went over my head, now; it is all starting to fit in, from snippets of information given by yourself and others on here, all of it is now appreciated . . .
Indiana . . .