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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Montgomeryshire => Topic started by: Stormybay on Monday 11 April 16 20:21 BST (UK)
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Hello
I had been hoping to visit the Powys offices when I come to the UK in June. As I look at their website, I see that they are only open every second Friday and the listing only goes until the end of May. I am unable to be in Llandidrod Wells on a Friday and am very disappointed that I will miss this opportunity. I am trying to locate records for Llansainffraid yn Mechain for James Edwards who was 60 in the 1841 census (he was a farmer but I cannot read the location of his farm), or to find out more about the birth and death of his son, Thomas, I think 1812 - 1836. I think my 2x great grandfather, William, 1833-1887 was raised by James. I keep coming up blank on ancestry.com
First, could anyone please advise about this office in Llandidrod Wells for the month of June?
And, if that office is not accessible to me, could you please advise if there is another location, other than Aberystwyth where I can find records for Montgomeryshire?
Thank you
Stormybay
North Vancouver, Canada
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it might be worth your while to take out a trial subscription to Findmypast or see if you can access it in a library. It has scans of many Welsh parish registers.
The only Thomas Edwards burial in 1836 in Llansanffraid ym Mechain is for a 28 year old resident of Melyniog Fawr. Also, there's no baptism in the parish for Thomas son of James.
James Edwards was buried 2 April 1849 aged 73, abode Llanerchymris, which is the name of the village where the farm was. Given the rounding down of ages in 1841, it's a good match for age.
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by 1851 James junior has the farm and the name looks like Tyn yr Iwen in Llanerch Emrys. HO107/2499 folio 452 pg 26.
I'm not finding baptisms in the parish records, so either the family are having the children baptised in another parish or they were non-conformist.
:-\
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Hello Osprey
Thank you for your efforts.
As far as I can tell, they were Calvinistic Methodists. I agree with the death record for James and had found that one. I have not found the birth of the daughter, Elizabeth nor of James Jr. nor have I found where he was in 1841, possibly working as a labourer on a farm nearby. I guess with the death of Thomas, James was then the eldest son who inherited this farm. But he did not keep William to help him run it, which raises other questions.
I have also found the marriage of a Thomas Edwards to Mary Williams in 1833, his death in 1836 and hers in 1834, which may have been the sequelae to child birth. There is no evidence at any time of siblings for William and, while these are all assumptions, they fit together. Some of this comes from the LDS Family Search site.
Because I only know the area vaguely, having been there in 2012, I do not know the language and it becomes even more complicated as I try to follow their movements from farm to farm - William married Anne Morris from Llanrhaidhr ym Mochnant whose records are kept in an completely different location, even though it is just "over the hill". For example, where is Llanerch Emrys? Is it an intersection of roads near Llansainffraid? and would a postman know how to find Tyn yr Iwen?
I have tried Find My Past, but these records are not showing up - I gather that the Methodist preacher took his records in his satchel as he moved from parish to parish, and that they may or may not have ever been recorded in a more official manner, but may have often disappeared.
This is why I was hoping to actually go to the spot where people know the names and places and where the existing Montgomeryshire records are stored - which I believe is in Llandidrod Wells and that seems not to be accessible to me in June when I come. And so, is there any other location where Montgomeryshire records might have been kept?
I always appreciate the effort that people like you make to help out perfect strangers. Thank you.
Stormybay
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I'm not sure that James inherited the farm as I can see no will on the National Library of Wales site.
https://www.llgc.org.uk/discover/nlw-resources/wills/
Possibly James took on the lease for the farm.
Llanerch Emrys is to the north of Llansanffraid - should show on this link
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hg1/
I think one of the problems here is the closeness of the county boundary. Llanrhaedr ym Mochnant may be just over the hill, but it's partly in a different county.
http://www.montgomeryshiregs.org.uk/index.php/montgomeryshire/galleries/parish-map/mgs-parish-map-of-montgomeryshire-295
The records on FindMyPast are parish records only, those of the established church. Methodist records can be hard to find, especially from the times of the circuits. But marriages before civil registration will be in the parish church & burials may be as well as the chapels didn't always have their own graveyard. As far as I know, there's nowhere else that holds the Montgomeryshire records.
I spotted James jnr in 1841 when I was searching yesterday, I'll have another look.
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1841 Aithnen, Bodynvol, Llanfechain HO107/1441/2 folio 18 pg 3
James Edwards 25 farmer
Frances 30
Gwen Thomas 10 female servant
In case you don't have it, James Edwards married Frances Edwards in the parish church of Llansanffraid 6 Nov 1839, his father James, farmer, her father Robert, farmer. Both signed, & the witnesses were Thomas Edwards & Robert Edwards who also signed.
Bodynvol is now on maps as Bodynfoel. Aithnen is still a farm, you can search for postcode SY22 6UE.
I don't think Tyn Yr Iwen is still a farm. In 1841, it's on the census after New Inn, then a farm called Llanerch Emrys and before Four Crosses farm.
http://checkmypostcode.uk/powys/pen-y-bont-llanerch-emrys#.Vw1OHeTmqM8
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while looking for something else, I spotted that Oswestry Library appear to have copy registers on microfiche & also monumental inscriptions for Gwern y pant.
http://www.oswestrygenealogy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Parish-registers-monumental-inscriptions-merge-Issue-9-Mar-2014.pdf
So, are you working on James being baptised at Gwern y pant 31 Mar 1816, son of James Edwards & Ann Owen? Church was recently opened, so any older children would have been baptised elsewhere.
Possible burial for Ann 14 Oct 1826 aged 47 of Llanerchemrys.
James Edwards married Ann Owen 9 June 1806 in Llanfair Caereinion, both otp, both made their mark.
There are some more burials in Llansanffraid ym Mechain that could be from James junior's family.
Frances Edwards buried 15 Sep 1840 infant of Llanfechan
James Edwards buried 24 July 1841 aged 2 weeks of Llanfechan. Likely baptism for him 16 July 1841 in Llanfechain, son of James & Frances.
I haven't as yet found a possible burial for Mary Edwards, possible mother of William.
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Osprey
You are doing a wonderful job for me. I agree with all that you have found. I have been following in parallel with what I can find and it supports but it is not the same. I did find the baptism of young James in 1816 , son of Ann and James. The birth record I found shows them at the same farm Tygn yr iwen. I thought that Ann may have died young, because in 1841, James Senior is with Elizabeth. And I see that the farm where young James was living in 1841 is not far from his father.
I also found Melniog Fawr death place of Thomas to be south of Llansanffraid off the Lletty Lane and there is a dairy farmer at that farm now, but apparently also a lot of modern houses.
At the moment, I cannot remember where I found the marriage of Thomas and Mary, but I think I had access at some time to the parish records of the Llansanffraid Church - must have because I have a name William Williams as the father of Mary and Catherine Jones as her mother. And I had news of their deaths. I did that bit a year or so ago and will figure that out again.
The sticking point is no christening of William with verification of the names of his parents.
It is because I am making my trip in June to visit and stay in the area that I am once again trying to push through the brick wall. Your work is helpful. Thank you. I had little sense of the local geography last time I travelled there as it was heavy rain, dark and at the end of a long trip. i had been looking in Denbighshire in Ruthin and Cefn Mawr where I, of course, found many records for Llanrhaehdr - I gather that the division in the parish went almost down the middle of the road. And so this next trip was to be about going to the Powys records.
Many thanks
Susan
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Will you be able to get to Oswestry Library to check the records there?
There is a marriage in Llansanffraid 15 Feb 1833 for a Thomas Edwards & Mary Williams, the witnesses were Ann Williams & James Davies. Of the 4, only Ann signed her name.
One problem with that is William's age, shown as 9 on the 1841 census which was on 7 June 1841, and is 28, 38 etc in following years when the census was the end of March or beginning of April, so working from the census he should have been born between 8 April & 7 June 1832.
:-\
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Hi,
Llanerch-Emrys as a township or sub-parish of Llansantffraid-ym-mechain and the bridge by the New Inn is bont (bridge of) Llanerch-Emrys. The sub-parish Llanerch-Emrys is then on the New Inn (south) side of the Tanat river, from there some way (south) towards Llansantffraid and some way to the West.
There is a farm I always knew as Tanyrwyn - you'd travel West up the Highland Road opposite the New-Inn to it and it would be on your left up there.
Jon
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Hello again
Thank you Jon Davis. That is very help information about the bridge and New Inn. Would you know if there is a burial ground in this little town, Llanerch Emrys?
I had not considered the Oswestry Library but can certainly figure out where that is and try to get there. It seems to be only a little more than a half hour from Llanfyllin where I will be staying. I am surprised that it has records as it is in Shropshire, correct? I had already intended to go to Ruyton X Towns as that is where William and his family settled on a farm for many years.
Thank you for the further piece about the marriage. Without definite information about the birth of William, and who his parents were, I am only trying to "tape" together bits that seem to make the best fit. William went on to have many children and it was only way down the line that he named one Thomas but that fellow was called Thomas Morris which would have been a combination of both grandfather's names. And none were called James.
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yes, it's in Shropshire. I was surprised to see they had copies of the records, but it's on their spreadsheet, so fingers crossed!
;)
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1841 Aithnen, Bodynvol, Llanfechain HO107/1441/2 folio 18 pg 3
James Edwards 25 farmer
Frances 30
Gwen Thomas 10 female servant
In case you don't have it, James Edwards married Frances Edwards in the parish church of Llansanffraid 6 Nov 1839
In Montgomeryshire Records 1813 - for Llanfechan (now Llanfechain) there's also a James born to the above 16 July 1841. Though now see that already mentioned.
For burials from Penybont Llanerch-Emrys, probably Llangedwyn 2 miles up the valley, or Llanfechan to the South between Llansantffraid-ym-Mechain and Llanfyllin in the Cain Valley. There are also various Independant chapels aroound such as the one at Bwlchyddar between Llanfyllin and Llangedwyn but not that far from Tanyrywen.
Jon
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that James was buried 24 July 1841 aged 2 weeks as mentioned in reply 6.
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Oswestry Library have a very useful card index of Family Announcements from the local papers going back to, at a guess, pre1880s. The Family History Society there are very helpful if you have a particular query.
Many of Montgomeryshire record have been published in booklet form by Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society and for published records for Penybont Llanerch-Emrys - Llangedwyn, Llanrhaider-ym-Mochnant and further North there's Clwyd Family History Society. A few yard to the East of Penybont Llanerch-Emrys you're into Shropshire - even though many of the names remain Welsh for some miles.
Many farms in the area were (part of large estates such as Bodynfol, or the Wynnstay Estate.
Jon
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Hello, Tan Yr Iwen is still a farm and easily found if coming from Llanfyllin (if you know the area that is) Penybont Llanerch Emrys does not have a burial site and would probably use Llangedwyn Church. Montgomery Genealogy Society would be a good point of reference as both P.L.E. and Llangedwyn have always been 100% Montgomeryshire whereas Llanrhaeadr Ym Mochnant was half Montgomeryshire 1/2 Clwyd. Hope you sort all your queries out while you are over here and get to enjoy the beautiful scenery. ;D
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Thank you, Ann.
I will try to find the farm. I know that the name Edwards is very common in the region - as you also have the name! But perhaps, I can glean a little more information and a sense of what the area looked like for James at that time.
susan
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Hello
This is a follow up to my query of April of this year. I want to thank you all for your help. I did go to Llansainffraid in June of this year and to the library in Oswestry where the people were extremely helpful and kind. A very kind volunteer from the library searched after I had left and found what I believe is a record of my William being born in Wykey, Shropshire to Thomas and Mary Edwards. I tend to believe this is possible as he returned there to work when he was married and had a family. I am guessing there was a family connection that led Thomas Edwards there to work himself. Perhaps I will find that Mary Edwards died there and that would explain a return to the family at Tyn yr Iwen for help with raising the boy.
With the help of a couple who live in Llanerch Emrys now, I was actually taken to the farm Tyn yr Iwen which still exists as a significant farm of sheep and goats. Perhaps this is the one that Jon mentioned earlier. The name seems to mean White House by the Yew Trees. There is still a Yew tree in the front yard and the house overlooks a valley which is actually the acreage for the farm. The road to this farm comes off the main road from Llansainffraid to New Inn and is south of the Tanat River, but it winds for quite a way to the west and then we took a turn south and down a steep hill. I would not have found it myself as the grasses by the road were overgrown and the road was terribly narrow. The lady, Shirley Davis, who currently lives in the home was very gracious and took us on a tour of the old parts of the house with the thick walls and the additions that have been built over the past 175 years!!! It was astounding.
While I remain without soundproof evidence that the James Edwards family is mine, I feel that it must be and that the bits I have tied together do make sense. Stopping for help at a little house along the road was a move brought on by frustration and intuition. But generous and helpful people were there and they took me to the farm.
And so I am several steps forward in my search because of this good people of this site, the volunteers at the Oswestry Library and the kind people in Llanerch Emrys. Thank you all.
Susan
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thanks for the update. Glad you had an enjoyable time!
:D