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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: Mollyrobz on Tuesday 12 April 16 14:01 BST (UK)
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Please help me, I'm looking for info on JOHN NICOL he was the husband of ANN MCDONALD and the father of WILLIAM NICOL.
I can't find a definite birth and death for JOHN NICOL. I know that he was a grocer as it's stated on Ann McDonald's death cert and also on his son Williams death cert. ANN passed away 1879 BAROSSA STREET PERTH, and John was deceased. JOHN and ANN married 1807 TIBBERMORE PERTH.
I've found a grave stone in Perth for a JOHN NICOL dated 1849, this John was a grocer and was 62y at age of death, address given as SOUTH STREET, I THINK this is him, that would give a birth of around 1787 if it's correct BUT I can't find this death on ScotlandsPeople??
I've found a couple of entries for a JOHN NICOL b 1787 and as I can't find a death cert I have no idea of parents names or anything like that. There was a John b dron 1847 to a WILLIAM NICOL, is this him? I'm not sure which avenue to take next in trying to find John Nicols parents,
Molly
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JOHN and ANN married 1807 TIBBERMORE PERTH.
I've found a grave stone in Perth for a JOHN NICOL dated 1849, this John was a grocer and was 62y at age of death, address given as SOUTH STREET, I THINK this is him,
Did you not check the 1841 census as address is South St on that census and John was 50 and Ann 55? Is Ann a widow in 1851?
If she is - then you have the right grave
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Hello CaroleW :)
No I haven't, if I'm honest I don't actually know how to check census records! BUT, somebody has told me that the 1841 Freecen has John Nicol 50 Grocer + Ann Nicol 55 in South Street Perth.
Likely candidates?
Molly
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Scotlands People has 3 death matches for the name John Nicol between 1841-1851 in Perthshire including one in 1847 - could you have misread 1847 as 1849?
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Sorry ignore my last reply, I read your post wrong. Apologies :)
Molly
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Deaths before 1855 do not include parents names
See this info from SP
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&1353
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Yes I know that as I've bought pre 1855 certs before! It's so annoying as they are vague on info :D
Molly
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I have a pic of the details saved to my computer :)
It reads as follows...
JOHN NICOL
SOUTH STREET
GROCER
23 JULY 1849 (death date)
62y
26 JULY 1849 (burial date)
INFLAMATION OF LUNGS
GREYFRIARS
LARGE PLAIN COFFIN, COST 3/6d
Perhaps the date is wrong on the website? You can't actually see the headstone itself I don't think, just the details?
Molly
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1837-38 Perth Directory
Nicol, John, grocer, 133 South street—house, 129
Nicol, John, grocer, 178 South street—house, 176
1845-46 Perth Directory
Nicol, James, grocer, 133 South street
Nicol, John, grocer, 178 South street
1848-49 Perth Directory
Nicol, John, grocer, 178 South Street—house, 176
1850-51 Perth Directory
Nicol, John, grocer, 73 North Methven Street
Nicol, Mrs John, grocer, 178 South Street—house, 176
I’m guessing that John has died and Mrs Nicol is continuing the business.
The other John perhaps a relative?
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Hello Buckhyne and thank you for your reply :)
I'm not 100% positive that I'm reading that info correctly. But by what you're saying you think that John could've passed away by 50-51 and the Mrs John Nicol could be Ann Mcdonald, his wife? And the other John Nicol perhaps a brother or son?
Molly
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Hello Buckhyne and thank you for your reply :)
I'm not 100% positive that I'm reading that info correctly. But by what you're saying you think that John could've passed away by 50-51 and the Mrs John Nicol could be Ann Mcdonald, his wife? And the other John Nicol perhaps a brother or son?
Molly
Aye, that's what I'm saying.
It's John's name in the directories until 1850-51 when it's Mrs John Nicol who is the grocer.
I cannot imagine Mrs Nicol being the grocer if John is still alive.
It is further proof that the John Nicol you found is the correct one.
As for the other John Nicol I don't know the family so I can't say if he is a relative but he would be worth checking out.
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1851 Census , 178 South Street , Perth , Perthshire.
Ann McDonald 57 widow grocer born Perth , Perthshire , with 2 daughters Mary 19 and Jane 14(NICEL)
ev
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1851 Census , 178 South Street , Perth , Perthshire.
Ann McDonald 57 widow grocer born Perth , Perthshire , with 2 daughters Mary 19 and Jane 14(NICEL)
ev
There ye have it! proof positive ;D
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Ah superb! Thank you you two! I think that definitly points to John Nicol that died 1849 as being my John Nicol doesn't it? :)
Thanks for that 1851 census Ev, I'm aware of them having a dau named MARY but as of yet not a JANE. So possibly the other JOHN NICOL from the records could possibly be another child I haven't found yet?
So my question is, how come I can't find a death cert for John pre 1855? Possibly a misspelling of his surname do you think? I've tried ones such a Nickle and now also NICEL.
If he had a birth of around 1787 I can see a few, how could I possibly narrow this done? Is it even possible? As it was already stated, pre 1855 records even if I could find it don't name parents :(
Molly
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Molly, less that a third of events are to be found recorded in the Old Parish Registers. Lots of reasons for this. It wasn't till 1855 that you should be able to find a BMD for everyone after this date.
Death and Burial records in the OPRs are the poorest in terms of record keeping unfortunately. See www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&2016
Monica
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This looks like them with four of a family.
The bairns John & Mary are twins, unless the ages have been rounded.
1841 census: South Street, Perth
John Nicol 50 1791
Ann Nicol 55 1786
Ann Nicol 17 1824
John Nicol 12 1829
Mary Nicol 12 1829
Jean Nicol 5 1836
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Hello Molly,
Daughter Jane Nicol age 14 on 1851 Census is likely to be 5yr old Jean Nicol on 1841 Census. In Scotland, Jean is a pet/short form of Jane.
Regards, Dod.
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Thank you Ecksdochter :)
Buckhyne, I have now found a couple more of the children, I now have 10 in total.
All born Perth,
WILLIAM 1808
ALEXANDER 1811
MARGARET 1815
CHARLES MCDONALD 1817
JAMES 1820
JOHN 1829
MARY 1831
ROBERT 1834
JANE 1836
WINEWOOD
The marriage was registered twice, once in TIBBERMORE and once in PERTH both 1807
Molly
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The marriage was registered twice, once in TIBBERMORE and once in PERTH both 1807
Molly
What that usually means is one of them is from Tibbermore parish and the other is from Perth parish.
Name John Nicoll
Spouse Ann Macdonald
Event Date: 08 Dec 1807, Perth, Scotland
Event Date: 11 Dec 1807, Tibbermore, Perth, Scotland
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Here is some online information about John's death from Perth & Kinross Council
http://www.pkc.gov.uk/article/3887/Perth-burgh-burial-registers-1794-1855?pkcrecid=29918&pkcFirstName=john&pkcSurname=nicol&pkcAlternativeNames=true&pkcpageno=0&pkcsortfield=id
Also, son John Nicol was registered to vote in 1860 and was living at 73 N Methven St, Perth:
Name:John Nicol
Occupation:Grocer, And Shop
Year:1860
Country:Scotland
County:Perthshire
Division or Location:Perth
Place of Abode:
73 North Methven Street
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According to Ancestry.com the following info is on several trees - but will def need to be checked out thoroughly.
John Nicol
Birth 6 MAY 1787 • Dron Perthshire Scotland
Death 11 JANUARY 1850 • Dunkeld Perthshire Scotland
Parents: William Nicol m Magdaline Moncreiff (Marriage 29 December 1783 • Dron Perthshire Scotland)
Known Siblings:
Robert Nicol born abt 1791 • Perthshire, Scotland
Death 1865 • 10 York Place Perth, Perthshire Scotland
m 1: Christian Will (1794-1823) 2:Margaret McEwan (1798-1872)
Wills on SP:
NICOL ROBERT 27/04/1865 SHIPOWNER IN PERTH, RESIDING AT YORK PLACE THERE PERTH SHERIFF COURT SC49/31/79
NICOL MARGARET 17/08/1872 ALIAS MCEWAN, WIDOW OF ROBERT NICOL, RESIDING AT YORK PLACE IN PERTH PERTH SHERIFF COURT SC49/31/94
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Hello AncesStory,
Yes this is my problem, I don't know how to go about finding a definite birth for John? I've came across the one as having Magdaline Mincrieff as a mum before but only via ancestry trees.
The ones that could be possible matches on FamilySearch are as follows...
7 SEPT 1787 ABERNYTE PERTH FATHER GEORGE NICOL
6 MAY 1787 DRON, PERTH FATHER WILLIAM NICOL
25 JUNE 1787 MONEYDIE PERTH PARENTS DAVID NICOL + GRIZEL MCLEISH
where do I go from here? ???
Molly
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I had a few spare credits on SP. JOHN NICOL and ANN MCDONALD had a son named WILLIAM NICOL who I believe was born roughly around 1808? WILLIAM married twice, once to MARY BALLINGALL (1830) and once to JEAN KAY (1868)
I decided to buy the 2nd marriage cert to JEAN KAY as I wondered if it held any more info, possibly a sibling as a witness or something.
It didn't say much, but his dad JOHN NICOL was deceased but his occupation was a WEAVER not a GROCER and his mum ANN m.s MCDONALD was still alive.
Molly
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Hello Molly,
Found a transcription of the 1871 Census but the original must be difficult to read. No surname for Ann's son-in-law and family.
1871 Census. 176 South St, Perth.
George -- 30 Shoemaker.
Jane -- 34
Helen -- 9
Mary Ann -- 5
Jane -- 3
Jessie -- 2 All born Perth.
Ann Nicol 77 Mother-in-Law b Schberman? Perthshire.
ScotlandsPeople has a death for an Ann Nicol, other name McDonald, age 85, 1879 at Perth.
Not what you were oiginally looking for, but a good find if it's the right person.
Regards, Dod.
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Hi eksdockter :)
Yes I already have a copy of Ann McDonald's death cert, I bought it some time ago. Sorry for wasting your time!
BUT, which that info you just gave me, the informant on ANNS death cert was a GEORGE CLARK SON-IN-LAW.
Possibly the same one from the census?
Molly
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There's a marriage for "a" George Clark to "a" Jane Nicol 1859 County/City of Perth & Perth (District) which = Town
Both their parents names for both parties will be recorded.
Annie
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[quote author=Mollyrobz link=topic=746256.msg5934361#msg5934361 date=1460466098
I can't find a definite birth and death for JOHN NICOL. I know that he was a grocer as it's stated on Ann McDonald's death cert and also on his son Williams death cert.
Molly
[/quote]
Was (William), John's eldest son (1st born) as this may be a clue.
Usually the 1st born son would be named after his paternal grandfather.
Annie
ADDED....Can you list all the names of the children of John please in order of birth to try & discount possible theories?
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Ann Nicol 77 Mother-in-Law b Schberman? Perthshire.
;D Probably Tibbermore?
Annie
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Can you list all the names of the children of John please in order of birth to try & discount possible theories?
Ah....must have missed this....
WILLIAM 1808
ALEXANDER 1811
MARGARET 1815
CHARLES MCDONALD 1817
JAMES 1820
JOHN 1829
MARY 1831
ROBERT 1834
JANE 1836
Looks like father of John most likely to be "a" William ???
Annie
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From the transcription I've seen it is the Clark family , Ann's birthplace given as Tibbermuir.
ev
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Yes I BELIEVE that William was John and Ann's eldest. I have thought about the naming pattern myself, I think I listed a possible candidate with a William as a father. Possibly born DRON?
And I also believe that ANN MCDONALD was born in TIBBERMORE like you say. On her death cert her parents are named as DONALD MCDONALD and WAINWOOD MCDONALD but on the marriage cert to John in TIBBERMORE her dad is named as DANIEL MACDONALD. Also, John nicoll is noted as being a WEAVER again :)
Molly
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And I also believe that ANN MCDONALD was born in TIBBERMORE like you say. On her death cert her parents are named as DONALD MCDONALD and WAINWOOD MCDONALD but on the marriage cert to John in TIBBERMORE her dad is named as DANIEL MACDONALD. Also, John nicoll is noted as being a WEAVER again :)
Molly
Depending who was taking the details the name Donald sometimes in highland Perthshire & beyond would be uttered as Donal/Danal (with the accent)....sounding like Daniel & this also happened with people named Donald who emigrated from the Highlands.
I would say this is the same person with different pronunciations.
Annie
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From the transcription I've seen it is the Clark family , Ann's birthplace given as Tibbermuir.
ev
Ev,
From this there are a few spellings for the same place before actual spellings of today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibbermore
http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/16346
Annie
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This is good for navigating areas & it's readable....left click & move
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/ordnance-survey-map-series/list/os25inch/perthshire/tibbermore
Annie
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On one of the marriage certs 1807 perth between JOHN NICOLL and ANN MACDONALD, Ann is noted as being from TOFTHOUSES TIBBERMUIR :)
Also, their son WILLIAM married MARY BALLINGALL, now I can't find any other children other than MARGARET NICOL b 1843 ORWELL.
BUT, there is a family on the 1851 census, a WILLIAM NICOL with wife MARY about 5 kids, one named MARGARET all living in KINROSS and this WILLIAMS place of birth is said to be DRORE, PERTH. Now is this DRON? Could this mean that JOHN named his eldest son WILLIAM after his father? Meaning he is the JOHN NICOL born 1787 DRON son of a WILLIAM NICOL?
Molly :)
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Here are some details I jotted down re. John Nicol and family
John Nicol was born about 1787, in Perthshire (burial record, Greyfriars, Perth).
John died on July 23, 1849, in Perth, Perthshire, at the age of 58, and was buried three days later at Greyfriars .
John Nicol married Ann MacDonald on December 11, 1807, in Tibbermore, Perthshire.
John Nicol was a grocer in Perth.
John and wife Ann lived in Perth and had 11 children in 28 years.
William: Birth 23 Dec 1808 Baptism25 Dec 1808 • Perth, Perthshire Scotland;
Alexander: Birth 15 September 1811; Baptism 29 Sept 1811 • Perth Perthshire Scotland
Charles Macdonald: Birth 30 May 1817; Baptism 08 Jun 1817 • Perth,Perthshire ,Scotland. On 1851 census, Perth as shipmaster.
James: Birth 18 May 1820; Baptism28 May 1820 • Perth, Perthshire Scotland
Wainwood (f): Birth 30 Nov 1826; Baptism 10 Dec 1826 • Perth, Perthshire, Scotland. May be the “Ann” in 1841 census living with arents at South St, Perth.
Ann: Birth About 1828 • Perth, Perthshire ?(acc to 1841 census, South Street, Perth)
John: Birth 10 May 1829; Baptism 17 May 1829 • Perth Perthshire, Scotland. On later census as grocer, Perth, 73 N Methven St.
Mary: Birth 7 August 1831; Baptism 14 Aug 1831 • Perth Perthshire, Scotland
Robert: Birth 7 Feb 1834; Baptism 16 Feb 1834 1831 • Perth Perthshire, Scotland
Jane : Birth 27 Aug 1836; Baptism 11 Sep 1836 • Perth Perthshire, Scotland
Censes
John Nicol : 1841census: male, b Perthshire 1791, grocer. + Ann Macdonald, son John, daughters Ann(?), Mary and Jean. John Nicol lived at South Street, Perth. Piece: SCT1841/387 Place: Perth Enumeration District: 3 Civil Parish: Perth West Church Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Perth West ChurchFolio: 0 Page: 22. 1845 Perth directory: John Nicol, grocer, 178 South Street, house 178.
Charles Macdonald Nicol son of Ann Macdonald and John Nicol is mentioned in a Perth directory as being a seaman, at 246 High Street Perth. 1851 : Parish: Perth; ED: 7A; Page: 11;Household schedule 52; Line: 7; Roll: CSSCT1851_80; Year: 1851. Address 126 High Street Perth Perthshire. Occupation: Ship Master. Head of house. Age 32 b Perth, 1815. Married to Margaret (Marjory Nicolson – marriage 28 Mar 1845 • Perth,Perthshire ,Scotland) age 30, b Perth, son Robert age 2. 1861 – in England - ship master b Perthshire 1817. : Civil parish Vessels; TownNewcastle; County/Island; Northumberland; Country England; Registration district Anglesey; Sub-registration district Holyhead ;ED, institution, or vessel: Gleam
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Speculation
John named his first son William – could he be following traditional naming pattern as Annie suggested and John’s father would be named William? Several trees on ancestry have John as the son of a William Nicol and Magdaline Moncrieff from Drone. BUT they all have John’s death as 1850 in Dunkeld? Have you discounted the 1850 death record – perhaps all the other trees are wrong since they are all “sourced” from one tree on Ancestry? The 1849 record from Greyfriars Perth seems to be correct – it ties in with the 1841 Scottish census, where John is noted as a grocer. Maybe he is John Nicol born Dron, Perthshire in 1787 who died in Perth July 23 1849?
Ann Macdonald, John’s wife may be the Ann McDonald baptized 28 April 1793 • Tibbermore, Perthshire, Scotland to Donald Macdonald(d 10 JUN 1809 • Tofthouses, Tibbermore) and spouse Wainwood McDonald(Birth ABOUT 1756; Death 28 JUN 1821 • Huntingtower, Tibbermore ). This couple married 3 Feb 1776 at Tibbermore,Perth,Scotland. John Nicol and spouse Ann Macdonald named a daughter Wainwood, after Ann’s mother? Also, Ann Nicol, (mother in law of George Clark, spouse of Jane/Jean Nicol 1871 census), was born Tibbermore?
John Nicol may be a sibling of the following Nicols in Perth, also children of William Nicol and Magdaline Moncrieff. William Nicol married Magdalen Moncrieff at Dron in Perthshire 30 May 1784. (William Nicol in this Parish and Magdaline Moncrieff in the parish of Fortevoit were contracted, proclaimed and married).Most of their children seem to have been born in Arngask, Perthshire but John is oldest and may have been born in Forteviot where his mother was living begore her marriage or wherever William Nicol is from – Dron??. Check the births in Forteviot and Dron (06 May 1787 • Dron, Perthshire, Scotland)? For details on Arngask see http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/16463
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/ordnance-survey-map-series/list/os6inch/perthshire/arngask
James Nicol - merchant in Perth. Perth directory 1845 shows him as James Nicol, grocer, 133 South Street, Perth. Perth Burgh Burial Registrations, 1794-1855 James Nicol, merchant, died of typhus, 10 March 1848 at Perth and buried 13 March 1848 at Greyfrairs Cemetery, Perth, Burgh, Perthshire.
Robert Nicol (see my previous post on wills) Born Arngask, Perthshire. 27 NOV 1791 to William Nicol and Magdalen Moncrieff. 1841 Census – general merchant, Middle Church burgh, High Street, Perth. Age 45 b 1796. (NB a daughter is named MAGDALENE – perhaps after his mother Magdalene Moncrieff?) 1845 Perth directory shows him as a shipmaster, 89 High Street, Perth. 1851 Ship owner in York Place, Perth. Age 59 b 1792 Arngask Perthshire. 1861 census. Age 69 b 1792 Arngask, Perthshire. Retired shipowner, Newton Street, Blairgowrie, Perthshire. Death 19 JAN 1865 • 10 York Place Perth, Perthshire.
William Nicol: Birth 19 JAN 1794 • Fordiehill Arngask PerthshireKinross Death 15 FEB 1863. 1851 census -Newfargie, Arngask, Fife, Scotland. Married to Catherine Niven. Farmer of 130 Acres Arable and 50 land of Moor. Married 2nd wife, Nancy Gentle, 05 Jun 1857 at Perth,Perthshire ,Scotland. 1861 Census 1861 -Newfargie Farm, Arngask, Fife, Scotland. Occupation: Farmer of 200 Acres. Employing 6 Labourer and 1 boy. Death record: Willian Nicol married to Nancy Gentle, age 69, occupation farmer. Cause of death Dropsy 18 months, son Peter Nicol was present (eldest son to 1st wife) . Buried in Greyfriars Cem Perth
David Nicol – Birth 11 Feb 1798 at Fordiehill(Fordell??) Arngask Fife & Kinross. 1845 Perth directory shows him as a vintner, at 14 Meal Vennel, Perth. 1851 census – vintner at 14 Meal Vennel, Perth. Age 53 b 1798 Kinross, Fife.Death record (Perth Burgh burials) Death Date:21 Apr 1854 Burial Date:25 Apr 1854 David Nicol age 56y,occupation: Grocer,Address: Meal Vennel. Cause of death: Apoplexy.
NB In the Perth directory of 1845 there is a Robert Nicol (NOT THE SHIPOWNER), a clerk, at BAROSA STREET, Perth. Isn’t that the address given on Ann Macdonald Nicol’s death certificate?
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Yes Ann's address on her death cert is given as 13 BAROSSA STREET PERTH
Molly
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Yes Ann's address on her death cert is given as 13 BAROSSA STREET PERTH
Molly
Not sure if this is a connection with your family or not but a Robert Nicholl, army pensioner, lived at Barossa Street, Perth from 1841-1881 censes -
1841
Piece: SCT1841/387 Place: Perth -Perth Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Per East Chrch-Lndwd Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Perth - East Church
Folio: 6 Page: 1
Address: Barrosa Street West Side
NICOLL Robert M 48 Uk Army Pensioner Outside Census County (1841)
NICOLL Marjory F 40 Perth
NICOLL Helen F 4 Outside Census County (1841)
NICOLL Marjory F 1m Perth
1851
Robert Nicoll, age 56, Head of house, b Kinettles, Forfarsire 1795.
Address: Barrosa Street Perth Perthshire
Occupation: Chelsa Pensioner
1861
Robert Nicoll, age 66, Head of house, b Kinettles, Forfarsire 1795.
Address: 7 Barrosa Street Perth Perthshire
Occupation: Chelsa Pensioner
1868 Perth electoral Register
Robert Nicoll, pensioner, 7 Barossa St, Perth.
1871
Robert Nicoll, age 76, Head of house, b Kinettles, Forfarsire 1795.
Address: 7 Barrosa Street Perth Perthshire
Occupation: Chelsa Pensioner
1881
Robert Nicoll, age 86, Head of house, b Kinettles, Forfarsire 1795.
Address: 7 Barossa Street Perth Perthshire
Occupation: Pensioner
Robert was married to Marjory Brysson*, (bap 28 Feb 1799, Errol to Catherine Murray and William Bryson) at St Maddoes, Perth, 4 Nov 1834. Children include Helen, born 1837 at Auchterhouse, Forfarshire and Marjory, born 1840, Perth.
* (also known as MAY/Mary)
I did look but could not see any other Nichol families in Barossa Street, Perth. Hope this is not a red herring!
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I hope it's not a red herring either! :)
What do you think should be my next step in regards to trying to connect the information? I'm not really sure where to start
Molly
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AncesStory :)
Also, if this robert nicol IS related, would that in fact make my John Nicol NOT the son of WILLIAM NICOL and MAGDALINE MONCRIEFF? There was a lot of info there and I'm trying to take it all in :D
Molly
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Hello Molly,
Ann's daughter Jane, 1861 Census at 176 SOUTH ST, PERTH.
George Clark 20 Boot Maker.
Jane Clark 24 Wife.
Ann Met Clark 1 Daughter. All born Perth. (Met? Might be Mac or McD)
SP has a Birth for an Ann McDonald Clark, 1859, Perth & Death 1861, Perth aged 2yrs.
1881 Census. 13 BAROSSA ST, PERTH.
George Clarke 40 Shoemaker.
Jane " 43
Helen " 19
Mary A " 15
Jane " 13
Jessie " 12
Margaret " 3
Jane Spiers 1 Cousin.
Names & addresses all tally, so no doubt at all that the 1871 Census previously posted is the correct Ann Nicoll. Looks like she was still living with daughter Jane & son-in-law George Clark(e) at the time of her death.
DONALD - DANIEL. I believe these names were sometimes interchangeable in Scotland. Useful link here re: Scottish forenames
www.whatsinaname.net
Regards, Dod.
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So you think I should maybe buy Jane Nicol/Clarks death cert? Perhaps that would shed some light on her dad?
Molly
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So you think I should maybe buy Jane Nicol/Clarks death cert? Perhaps that would shed some light on her dad?
Molly
Most definitely as you won't find that anywhere else but also only as long as the informant knew those details.
Annie
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A look for Wills on SP would be an idea too....I haven't looked though.
Annie
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Ah it had no idea that you could even look at wills on SP, that's interesting. Who do you think is the best person to start with regarding Wills? John himself?
Molly
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Hello Molly,
I don't know if Jane Clark's Death Certificate will give you any new information about her father John Nicol. I posted the 1861 & 1881 Census to show that, through the addresses and children's names, they are the same family as the 1871 Census where the family surname had not been transcribed. Also to show that the 1881 address for Jane matched the address on Ann Nicol's Death Certificate, 13 Barossa Street. It was just to clarify it was the right Ann Nicol on 1871 Census.
Might be worth finding out if anyone else is buried in the same lair/plot as John Nicol. If you found John's burial details on the Perth burgh burial register, 1794-1855 website, then there should be a contact number or e-mail address on the same website. Worth a try.
Regards, Dod.
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Hi Dod,
Im going to try and phone them tomorrow on my break to see if I can find out if anybody else is buried in Johns plot.
Does anybody know if there was any other Nicols living at 178 South street perth on any the census? That's the address given for Jane Nicol on her marriage cert to George Clark
Molly
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Also I think that maybe ROBERT NICOL the CLERK was possibly the son of ROBERT NICOL the SHIP MASTER
molly
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Hello everybody, I phoned the crematorium in Perth on Friday and I takes up to ten days for them to get back to you with information, and that's if they even have any because apparently the records are really old and not all are available. I'll post any info once I get it, so I hope this post has helped other people too :)
If I wanted to ask about DONALD and WAINWOOD MCDONALD, should I create another post or carry it on with this one as they are a connected family? :)
Molly
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Hello everybody,
I received my reply from TES burials today, they deal with the Greyfriars Kirkyard in Perth. Unfortunately they've said that there isn't any recorded documents saying that John Nicol is buried there. Apparently this doesn't mean that he WASNT buried there, just that there's no surviving document :( I thought as much. All I seem to do is hit brick walls :(
Thank you all
Molly
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Hello everybody,
All I seem to do is hit brick walls :(
Molly
Hello Molly,
have you tried accessing any of his siblings' wills on Scotland's People website?? Wills may give some insights to siblings or nieces or nephews of John Nicol, grocer from South St Perth.
I believe that the Robert Nicol, shipowner, born Arngask, Perthshire (now known as Arngask, Fife) who died in Perth at York Place in 1865, and the James Nicol, grocer, born 1785, Dron, Perthshire died of typhus, 1848, Perth city, Perth, were two of your John Nicol's siblings.
You could also try to find a way back by checking out John's other siblings - they may have left source material that would verify that John Nicol, grocer from Perth was a sibling:
William Nicol, Dron, Perthshire and and Magdaline Moncreiff, Fortrose, Perthshire married 29 December 1783, Dron Perthshire Scotland. I believe you have previously posted a query about this couple's ancestry? DonM seems to have given a definitive answer - that Magdalene was the daughter of Mathew of Culfargie which is NW of the town of Abernethy, where Magdaline was born..
Their children included:
James Nicol, bapt 27 May 1785,Dron, Perthhsire . Grocer in High Street, Perth. Died age 64 of typhus, 10 Mar 1848, Perth. Buried at Greyfriars, Perth
John Nicol bapt 6 MAY 1787 • Dron Perthshire Scotland. Grocer at 178 South Street Perth. Died 1849, Perth. Buried at Greyfriars, Perth
Margaret Nicol, bapt 9 Jul 1789, Arngask, Perthshire, Scotland
Robert Nicol born 27 Nov 1791, Arngask, Perthshire, Scotland (Arngask is now considered to be in Fife) Death 1865 • 10 York Place Perth, Perthshire Scotland
m 1: Christian Will (1794-1823) 2:Margaret McEwan (1798-1872)
Wills on SP:
NICOL ROBERT 27/04/1865 SHIPOWNER IN PERTH, RESIDING AT YORK PLACE THERE PERTH SHERIFF COURT SC49/31/79
NICOL MARGARET 17/08/1872 ALIAS MCEWAN, WIDOW OF ROBERT NICOL, RESIDING AT YORK PLACE IN PERTH PERTH SHERIFF COURT SC49/31/94
William Nicol bapt 19 Jan 1794 Arngask, Perthshire.
Alexander Nicol bapt 29 Nov 1795 Arngask, Perthshire
David Nicol, bapt 11 Feb 1798, Arngask, Perthshire
If you can research the siblings of your John Nicol, you may find on their death records, (if after 1855), information about their parents. Obviously the father will be William Nicol, but the mother will also be named - they will be proven siblings of John Nicol and James Nicol from Dron, Perthshire if the Nicols born in Arngask have the parents William Nicol and Magdaline Moncrieff.
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I don't know of any of Johns siblings for sure though. Yes, I asked about William Nicol and Magdaline Moncrieff but I'm not sure that they are actually my Johns parents. I've found nothing to back this up.
I haven't checked the wills on scotlandspeople as of yet, would I search for Johns kids? I'm not really sure where to start regarding that
Thank you
Molly
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Hi Molly,
I headed up to the Perth Library today and checked out the pre-1855 Monumental Inscriptions for North Perthshire (Greyfriars) and all I found were a couple of inscriptions.
no.124 Block A. Robert Nicol, shipowner, 19.1.1865, 74 years, wife Margaret McEwan 4.4.1872, 74.
son Duncan lost at sea .11.1841, 18 years. Robert 20.2.1848, 12 years, another son infant.
no.26 Block F (small flat stone) lair 220. by John Nicol & wife Ann McDonald, children John 30.11.1822, 5 months, Robert 23.10.1836, 21 months. Margaret 3.10.1840, 25 years, Winwood 1.1.1841, 14 years.
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I don't know of any of Johns siblings for sure though.
Molly
Why don't you search SP and purchase the death record for Robert Nicol who died at York Place, Perth in 1865?
It will cost you 6 credits.
His parents should be noted on the death record, since he died post 1855. If his parents are William Nicol and Magdaline Moncrieff, then you will know that following the marriage of William Nicol from Dron and Magdaline Moncrieff from Forteviot and the birth of two sons, James, then John Nicol, they moved to Arngask and had several other children.
Until you can verify or discount the parentage of any of the children born to William Nicol in Arngask ( please see earlier posts in which they are all named) then you will never know for certain whether there is a definite possibility of William Nicol and Magdaline Moncrieff being the parents of John Nicol, the grocer who died in Perth in 1849.
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Hello everybody,
Firstly, thank you for taking the time to do that Buckhyne, that was such a kind thing to do for somebody :)
Secondly, I've purchased ROBERT NICOLS death cert for 1865 PERTH, 10 YORK PLACE and it says that he was the son of WILLIAM NICOL and MAGDALINE MONCRIEFF
Molly
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Excellent! With Robert Nicol's birth certificate you have proven that William Nicol and Magdalen Moncrieff moved to Arngask following the birth of two sons in Dron - James, then John. It seems most probable that John Nicol, grocer from Perth who married Ann McDonald, was this couple's second child born in Dron, Perthshire, You may be able to find out a bit more about Magdalen, given that her Moncrieff family is so well researched. Well done!
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You really think that that's enough to back them up as being Johns parents? :)
I wasn't aware that Magdalines family had been well researched so that's something I look forward to seeing
Thank you for your help
Molly
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Hello AncesStory,
Would you be so kind as to explain the connection of my John Nicol to the Robert Nicol who's birth cert I purchased? I don't quite understand it! :D sorry to be a pain.
Is there anything else that I could possibly to to solidify this connection that you can think of?
Best wishes
Molly
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Hi Molly,
Today I was searching online & came across another topic on here which I was able to contribute to but in the process, I found a cert. in my archives which may belong to your family ???
2 of the names are fascinating to say the least ;D
MARRIAGE 25 Nov 1887 SCOTLANDWELL, PORTMOAK, KINROSS
DAVID NICOL (Widower) 39 & MARGARET LITSTER 37
Winesses: Dalziel Peebles & Elizabeth Peebles
Usual Residence of David - Drumain, Leslie (Fife)
Usual Residence of Margaret - Kirmeston? (can't make it out), Portmoak
Parents of DAVID - William Nicol & Mary Ballingall (deceased)
Parents of Margaret - Dalziel Litster & Marian Wallace
Had to "Go ogle" that name :P
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hk5/
Annie
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Would you be so kind as to explain the connection of my John Nicol to the Robert Nicol who's birth cert I purchased?Molly
Hello Molly - since John's parents are not named on his death certificate of 1849, you will never know for sure whether he is the John Nicol born in Dron, Perthshire. You could research all other possible John Nicol births within a 10 year birth estimate of the 1841 census return and death certificate for your John Nicol, then try to discount them if possible.
Since several other Nicol children from the Nicol/Moncrieff union lived and worked in Perth at the same time as your John Nicol, it is more probable that they were related:
For instance, according to the 1837-38 Perth Directory your John Nicol, grocer, had a shop at 178 South St Perth, house, 176 South St Perth. Another grocer named "John" Nicol (actually James Nicol as per 1845 Perth directory ) lived in close proximity at 133 South St, Perth, his shop being at 129 Street Perth. He is still at the same address, with the same occupation in 1845. Coincidence? Perhaps. More likely this grocer James Nicol was John's older brother James, born in Dron, 1785.
Robert Nicol, who you have proved to be a son of William Nicol and Magdalen Moncreiff. is named as a general merchant living in Perth at 126 High Street in the 1841 census, and a shipmaster according to the Perth 1845 directory. Two years after your John Nicol's death, Robert was a shipowner living at York Place, Perth. According to this same census of 1851, Charles Macdonald Nicol, son of Ann Macdonald and your John Nicol, is mentioned in a Perth directory as being a seaman, at 246 High Street Perth. Coincidence? Perhaps.
David Nicol, born 1798 at Arngask to William Nicol and Magdalen Moncrieff also lived and worked in Perth. 1845 Perth directory shows him as a vintner, at 14 Meal Vennel, Perth.
1851 census – vintner at 14 Meal Vennel, Perth. Age 53 b 1798 Kinross, Fife.(ie Arngask)
Death record (Perth Burgh burials) Death Date:21 Apr 1854 Burial Date:25 Apr 1854 David Nicol age 56y,occupation: Grocer, Address: Meal Vennel. Cause of death: Apoplexy.
As yet there is no definitive proof that your John Nicol, grocer and merchant, was the sibling of merchants James, Robert and David Nicol who all lived and worked in Perth at the same time as John, but I think it is probable.
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Hello and thank you both for your replies, sorry about my delayed one but I've been really busy as of late :)
Annie that info is most interesting as I've never been able to find any more of William Nicol and Mary Ballingalls children!
I saw the 1891 census which has David Nicol b Arwell, Kinross shire with
Wife Margaret
And children
William Nicol
Elizabeth Maria Nicol
Melville Litster Nicol
Molly
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I saw the 1891 census which has David Nicol b Arwell, Kinross shire with
Molly,
I think the place name was possibly Orwell?
Annie
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Hello Annie,
Yes, this is what I thought :) I can't seem to find them on any other census records though?
Molly
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Hello,
Thanks to Annie's post I found these Census Returns & wondered if they could be 'your' family with the Nicol/Ballingall names.
1841. Windy Walls, Orwell, Kinross. (Lovely name!)
William Nicol 30 b Outwith Kinross-shire. M.S. (Male Servant)
Mary " 29 b " "
John " 8 b Kinross.
James " 6 b "
William " 4 b "
Margaret " 1 b "
James Ballingall 30 b Outwith Kinross-shire. Game Keeper.
1851. Hatchbank, Kinross, Kinross-shire.
William Nicol 42 b Drore, Perthshire. (Dron?) Farm Servant.
Mary " 43 b " "
William " 14 b Orwell, Kinross-shire.
Margaret " 9 b " "
Charles " 8 b " "
Daviel " 5 b " " (Transcription Error for David)
1861. Craigomill, Orwell, Kinross-shire.
William Nicol 51 b Perth, Perthshire. Ploughman.
Mary Ballingall 53 b Dron, "
David Nicol 15 b Orwell, Kinross-shire. Ap Labr (Ag Lab)
Mary Nicol/Ballingall died 1867 at Kinross, Kinross-shire age 60yrs. (SP)
William Nicol & Jean Kay married 1868 at Kinross. (SP)
1871. High St, Kinross.
William Nichol 59 b Perth, Perthshire. Labourer.
Jean Kay " 35 b Kinross, Kinross-shire.
Robert Nichol 16mon b " "
1881. Main St, Kinross.
William Nicoll 73 b Perth. General Labourer.
Jean " 43 b Kinross.
Robert " 11 b "
Elizabeth " 3 b "
Jean & Elizabeth are on their own at Kinross 1891 & 1901.
SP has a death for a William Nicol, 1889, Kinross age 79yrs.
Time for a coffee. Don't know if this helps in any way, but I've enjoyed the search.
Regards, Dod.
I've found son David on a few Census Returns too.
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Hi ecksdochter :)
Yes that is definitely my family, thank you for providing me with this info.
Could I ask what census records you have David on please?
Molly :)
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Hello Molly,
Haven't found 1871 Census for David so far.
1881 Wales Census. Brecknock, Llywel, Breconshire.
David Nicol 32 Shepherd b *? Scotland. (*Kinross-shire. Hard to read & not transcribed)
Jane " 29 b Perthshire, Scotland.
Margaret Davidson Nicol 8 b Transcribed as Brecknock, Llywel but this is scored out &
Kinross-shire written above. Again, difficult to read.
Mary Jane Ballingall Nicol 5 b Brecknock, Llywel, Breconshire, Wales.
William Nicol 3 b Brecknock.
Elizabeth Maria Nicol 11mons b Brecknock.
This may be his marriage to Jane: David Nicol & Jane Davidson 1873 at Orwell, Kinross-shire. I suspect daughter Margaret is the Margaret Davidson born to Jane Davidson 15th March 1873 at Orwell, Kinross-shire. (F.Search)
Mary Jane B Nicoll, birth registered Jul-Sep 1875 at Brecknock, Brecknockshire.
Elizabeth Maria Nicoll, birth registered Apr-Jun 1880 at Brecknock.
1891. Arngask, Fife. (The one Annie mentions in an earlier post)
David Nicol 43 b Orwell, Kinross-shire. Shepherd.
Margaret " 40 b Portmoak, "
William " 13 b England?
Elizabeth Maria Nicol 11 b England?
Melville Litster Nicol 1 b Auchtermuchty, Fife.
Not found a death for Jane Nicol so perhaps she died in Wales.
May be his 2nd marriage: David Nicol & Margaret Litster 1887 Portmoak, Kinross-shire.
1901. Forteviot, Perthshire.
David Nicol 52 b Orwell, Kinross-shire. Shepherd.
Margret " 50 b Portmoak, "
Melville " 11 b Auchtermuchty, Fife.
Regards, Dod.
PS. 1871. Halteasses House, Ceres, Fife.
David Nicol 22 Lodger b Orwell, Kinross-shire. Shepherd.
Lodging with Thomas Davidson (Ag Lab) & his wife Helen Kassell.
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This information is brilliant! :)
I know this is getting away from the original topic now but David Nicols mum was named Mary Jane Ballingall and according to her death certificate she was the dau of James Ballingall and Margaret McLaren. I've never been able to find a marriage or anything for this couple but a little while ago I came across a marriage certificate on SP for a JAMES GALL and MARGARET MCLAREN 1798 PERTH.
I wonder if this is her parents? GALL isn't too different from BALLINGALL if the transcriber just caught the end of it or the person saying it perhaps had a thick accent or something? What's your opinion?
Molly :)
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Ecksdochter :)
Where you able to find any more of William and Mary Nicols children on any of the census records with their families? I'm trying to find the names of their kids :)
Molly
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Hi Molly
Are you still searching for information on John NICOL?
It maybe that he's in my tree as I've come across too many positive leads within posts here.
Feel free to contact me.
Cheers
Rod
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Hello Rod,
Yes I am :)
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What's the best way to move forward with this for you?
Do you use WikiTree - I do :)