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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: DebNZ on Thursday 14 April 16 03:06 BST (UK)
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Hi from New Zealand
I'm trying hard to find some family details for Alf Thomas, known in the 1920s and thereabouts as the "Welsh Harry Lauder." I'm trying to prove a connection, or otherwise, with the family of John Hugh Thomas b. 1886 Swansea. At this stage I'm thinking he is a cousin of the family - at one stage I thought both men were the same person (Alf possibly being a stage name). John Hugh Thomas was also a music hall performer. Does anyone know anything about either family please?
Cheers
DebNZ
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Hi DebNZ,
I noticed that there is a signed postcard of Alf Thomas currently for sale:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hgl/
HTH, Romilly.
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Romilly, the sale is closed now :(
There are several photos on here but no biographical detail. You may have found this already DebNZ.
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/traveling-culture/chau1/pdf/cambrian/1/brochure.pdf
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Yep
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I would be delighted if i could just find John Hugh Thomas' marriage to Annie Taylor, or a record of his death (she remarried in 1928 so presumably he was dead by then. So frustrating!
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Hi
Search on Welsh Newspapers Online suggests that there were a number of people known as 'Welsh Harry Lauder' , but that THE ' W H R' was Alf Thomas, Swansea.
There is a marriage on Free BMD, John H Thomas to either Ann Taylor or Lavina B Woodward, Prestwich Registration District 8d 441 quarter ending March 1911. Also a baptism on, '1920 - 1922 - Lancashire OnLine Parish Clerk Project', 1920, born 1913 :
Baptism: 26 Feb 1920 St Stephen, Harpurhey, Lancashire, England
Margaret May Thomas - Child of John Hugh Thomas & Annie
Born: 10 May 1913
Abode: 53 Middlewood St.
Occupation: Music Hall Artist
Baptised by: J. H. Beeley
Register: Baptisms 1911 - 1929, Entry 1785
Source: LDS Film 2113187
Emyr
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FreeBMD has 6 children with surname Thomas,mother's maiden name Taylor,births registered in Prestwich district,between 1911 and 1922.I won't name them in case any are still alive in accordance with Rootschat policy.
Regards
Roger
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They look good finds Emyr and Roger.
According to 1901 census and 1911 indexes, that John H Thomas was born Amlwch, Anglesey as was the rest of the family in 1901 - no Swansea connection. :-\
DebNZ
Where was Annie living when she remarried?
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There is a newspaper report of 27th October 1914 which refers to a concert given to soldiers in Swansea by Alf Thomas,who also seems to be described as "a popular comedian" at this stage.
In the report there are references to "little Miss Iris Thomas" and "Master Ivor Thomas".This I think allows this family to be identified on the 1911 census.Though I can't quote this it leads me to think that Alf is the son(born circa 1879) of Warren Thomas(tailor) ,and that he may have married Mary Ann Morgan in 1898.
Regards
Roger
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Wow - thanks everyone. Great to now have a marriage date and also a line to follow for Alf. Very helpful. I'm very grateful. Don't stop looking!
Many thanks
DebNZ
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Hi
Harry Lauder was a comedian and singer.
Short account in The Cambrian 23 July 1909:
SWANSEA "RECORD" MAKER. MR. ALF THOMAS' SUCCESS IN LONDON. Mr. Alf Thomas, the "Welsh Harry Lauder," has broken out in another direction, and to his very material benefit. He has just returned to Swansea after singing into a recording gramophone for one of the leading London firms. He made five records :"The Tram Conductor," "Daft Davie." "Jenny Morgan," "The Forty Twos," and "The Postman," and these will be on the market next month. So successful was the venture that it is probable that Mr. Thomas will have to go up each month to add Welsh records exclusively to the firm's list.
In another paper, 1910:
Alf Thomas, the Welsh Harry Lauder, was all his reputation had claimed for him. In fact, he was the leading feature of the entertainment. He is not only a fine singer, but his imitation work and acting were the best seen here in many days. He made a decided hit in his Scotch costume and songs, and his many jokes were clean and funny to a hearty laugh. He made the hit of the evening in his song, 'I'm Tired.' He was forced to give many encores, until he was apparently exhausted.
Also November 1910:
The Cambrian Glee Singers, on tour in in America, are doing wonderful things, according to the American journalists. Of the "Welsh Harry Lauder," Mr. Alf Thomas, of Swansea, "The Granville Standard" gives this tit-bit: "Those at the Eisteddfod Saturday afternoon had a chance to see Mr. Thomas in female impersonation, as a Welsh girl in native costume. Here again he was superlatively good, and his song and monologue descriptive of the trials of a Welsh girl in organising a choir of ladies' voices was very funny indeed. Mr. Thomas certainly has a great future before him, and if he is not recognised before many seasons as one of the very best impersonators on the stage, Granville critics are all at sea."
Emyr
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There are so many excellent Welsh singers currently and over the last 70 years, that they should be calling some English singers something like "the English Tom Jones"
or the English Kathryn Jenkins.
;D
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SWANSEA "RECORD" MAKER. MR. ALF THOMAS' SUCCESS IN LONDON. Mr. Alf Thomas, the "Welsh Harry Lauder," has broken out in another direction, and to his very material benefit. He has just returned to Swansea after singing into a recording gramophone for one of the leading London firms. He made five records :"The Tram Conductor," "Daft Davie." "Jenny Morgan," "The Forty Twos," and "The Postman," and these will be on the market next month. So successful was the venture that it is probable that Mr. Thomas will have to go up each month to add Welsh records exclusively to the firm's list.
Emyr
Interesting. If I have the right Alfred, he was a Tram Conductor in 1901 - perhaps the song was based on his experiences.
Reading the reviews, where he is very popular, seem at odds with his employment in the censuses. He must have been part time.
As regards a link between the two men, their families look to come from different areas of Wales, so there is likely to be no connection.
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Nice spot between the record and the occupation,Heywood.
Regards
Roger
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This is all very interesting! The gentleman that I am enquiring for is a family friend and his grandfather was John Hugh Thomas. He knows he was in music hall and also a lot of memories about "Alf Thomas" talked about within the family (but in the days when children were seen and not heard) and possibly even referred to as "Uncle Alf". This is the rather tenuous link and I am doing my best to sort it for him. The generation above him are all gone now so there is no point of reference. The other very interesting thing is that a photo I have of John Hugh Thomas and the one of Alf Thomas that was referred to on ebay at the beginning of this thread are extremely similar AND were both taken at the same photographic studio in Liverpool. I'm sure if we really push we can sort this one. There MUST be a link!
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Would you be able to find out the line from John Hugh to your friend. You said that Annie remarried. Where did this event happen?
John Hugh here, is in Manchester with children born locally but was born in Anglesey.
If we have the right Alf, he is born Swansea but the censuses do not indicate his career as an entertainer.
Perhaps the two men met through their music hall activities and became friends.
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John Hugh is born in Swansea. His children are Leslie Hugh, 1911, Margaret May (Madge) 1913, Mabel Constance 1914 (mother of my friend) and John Victor (Jack) 1920. Their births are all registered Prestwich, Lanashire. After John Hugh died/divorced/left Annie she married William (Billy) Poole in Lancashire 1928. The family lived in Oldham - my friend has been to and recognised the house. The children were all put into the Actors' Orphanage when their parents split.
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All that fits but John Hugh Thomas was born in Anglesey - not Swansea :-\
This is him in 1911 index
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1C-1WP
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Annie and William Poole married in 1926 at St Mark's, Glodwick, Oldham.
The only birth I can see for a John V Thomas is Sheffield :-\
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I have John Victor's baptism - all four children were baptised together in 1920 when John Victor was born. He was definitely born 4 January 1920 and their father's occupation was given as "music hall". All four baptisms in Lancashire parish records.
I am interested in the 1911 census record you have seen the index for - I wish that I could see the actual census form!! I have a friend in England with access to FindMyPast - mighty ask her if she can look at it for me.
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The birth fits for John V. Perhaps, John Hugh was appearing in Sheffield and then they returned to Lancashire.
What church were they baptised at?
Unfortunately, we can't give more details from 1911
1901 3756/113/37
Folio: 113
i think this is the family in 1901
36 Whitland Street Harpurhey
John R Thomas 42 yrs
Jane H Thomas 42 yrs
Margaret Thomas 14 yrs
John H Thomas 12 yrs
Gwilym Thomas 9 yrs
Richard O Thomas 4 yrs
All born Anglesey- Amlwch except for father John R whose birthplace I cannot read except for 'Anglesey'
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The baptism is on www.lan-opc.org.uk,at St Stephen Harpurhey,but the parents are given as John Hugh Thomas and MARY.
Regards
Roger
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Yes - have seen the census now! Wow! You have blown apart the older generation totally - my friend had entirely incorrect people as his gt grandparents. I wondered why nothing seemed to fit. You have been wonderful - thank you so much!
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The baptism is on www.lan-opc.org.uk,at St Stephen Harpurhey,but the parents are given as John Hugh Thomas and MARY.
Regards
Roger
Oh heck!
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Strangely,though 4 children are baptised on the same day,two give Annie and two give Mary!
Regards
Roger
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I was just going to point that out but maybe it is a transcription error
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My friend knew all of the "children" as uncles and aunties. His story is that John Hugh turned to drink and either wandered off and/or died of alcoholism.
It's more interesting than I thought!
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So we do have the right family - names and places confirm that. :)
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Yes indeed. Now - to convince my family friend that he had it all wrong.......
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Good luck with that ;)
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Hi,my name is Ian McGillivray i live in Swansea South Wales, Alf was my grandmothers uncle, i havn`t any information o him and John Hughs but my cousin in New Hampshire USA has done a lot of research and i`d be happy to give you her contact info if you`re interested
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Thank you for your offer, Ian. I think though that we have established that Alf Thomas is not "my" man.