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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: James18 on Thursday 14 April 16 15:01 BST (UK)
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Okay, now this is looking like a major brick wall - mainly as I suspect it involves lying about the mother's name on a birth certificate. If anyone can solve this one I'd be hugely impressed!
Edwin Henry Hooker was born 20/11/1883 in Knowle Hill, Egham, Surrey - his parents are given as Henry Hooker and Maria Hooker, formerly Wright. Henry registered the birth. The problem with this information is that Maria was admitted to Woking Asylum (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=9051&h=122475&ssrc=pt&tid=85127359&pid=48510927291&usePUB=true) on 26/05/1881 and died there on 08/11/1916. She appears as a patient there on the 1891 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=6598&h=18119795&ssrc=pt&tid=85127359&pid=48510927291&usePUB=true), 1901 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7814&h=4561974&ssrc=pt&tid=85127359&pid=48510927291&usePUB=true) and 1911 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2352&h=41552337&ssrc=pt&tid=85127359&pid=48510927291&usePUB=true) census returns. I am not aware of her having ever been released, and I strongly doubt she gave birth to a son in Egham in 1883 despite being incarcerated in Woking in 1881 and 1891. I mean, it is possible, but also very unlikely.
Henry & Maria had five (other) children, all of whom are accounted for with census and BMD records:
Harry (1872 - 1944) b. Colnbrook, Bucks d. Woking, Surrey
Minnie Maria (1874 - 1964) b. Colnbrook, Bucks d. Woking, Surrey
Edith Annie (1876 - 1906) b. Colnbrook, Bucks d. Woking, Surrey
Albert (1878 - 1959) b. Colnbrook, Bucks d. Weybridge, Surrey
Janet (1880 - 1943) b. Chertsey, Surrey d. Ealing, Middlesex
The four younger children were baptized together (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4772/40815_1831101883_0951-00028/2309889?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/85127359/person/48510927294/facts/citation/343517051305/edit/record) at Longcross, Surrey on 16/04/1893.
Curiously, despite Edwin being registered as the son of Henry & Maria, he seems to have been 'forgotten' after 1891. He can not be found on later census records, he was not baptized in 1893 - despite being the youngest - and by the time of the 1911 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_03023_0221_03?pid=41394682&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26dbid%3d2352%26h%3d41394682%26ssrc%3dpt%26tid%3d85127359%26pid%3d48510927290%26usePUB%3dtrue&ssrc=pt&treeid=85127359&personid=48510927290&hintid=&usePUB=true) census, Henry has only recorded five children from his marriage; four living, one deceased (Edith). You wouldn't just forget your youngest son, would you?
Edwin Henry only makes two appearances: (1) his birth certificate (https://i.imgur.com/1jAZC5r.jpg), and (2) appearing alongside his family on the 1891 census (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=6598&h=19191679&ssrc=pt&tid=85127359&pid=83013341996&usePUB=true). (His name has been mistranscribed, but that's him).
After that... he just disappears. Nothing. Nada. There are of course other Edwin Hookers, but the ones I've found I've discounted.
What happened to Edwin? Who was his mother? When, and as whom, did he die?
For a complete run-down of facts, theories and speculation you can read this (http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=24000) thread.
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Don't forget that it as not unknown for women at that time to be put into asylums following the birth of children. Nowadays we call it post natal depression in those days it was a mental illness. OH has one in his tree that was admitted after the birth of a child and died there a few decades later
Rosie
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Hi Rosie,
Thanks for that, and yes, doesn't surprise me. Both Maria and her daughter Edith died in Woking Asylum, and they were both being 'treated' for Mania, so make of that what you will.
However, Edwin was born 2 1/2 years after his 'mother' was admitted, so this leaves me sceptical.
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Hi,
Two questions
Have you seen the PR for the 1893 baptisms? PRs occasionally have additional notes.
Have you considered the possibility that, despite the birth registration, Henry was not Edwin Henry's biological father? Henry may have accepted responsibility to protect Maria.
Jann
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Have you seen the PR for the 1893 baptisms? PRs occasionally have additional notes.
The only additional notes are that Minnie, Edith & Albert are 'Adult'
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Henry has only recorded five children from his marriage; four living, one deceased (Edith). You wouldn't just forget your youngest son, would you?
Have you checked who filled in the form ???
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Henry has only recorded five children from his marriage; four living, one deceased (Edith). You wouldn't just forget your youngest son, would you?
Have you checked who filled in the form ???
It's signed Harry Hooker, which could be either of them, but is more likely the son. Do you think he would have lied? Possible, I suppose.
As for Henry not being Edwin's father... it's possible, of course, but if he knew he wasn't the real father and was only doing it to save Maria the scandal of giving birth to a bastard, why would Edwin have been living with Henry's family in 1891? He still has the same name he was registered with, and is recorded as 'son'.
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Could it be the other way (ie Edwin is Henry's son with another woman) and for some reason he then went to live with her / her family after the 1891 census.
It could explain the 1911 entry as from the actual marriage there would have only been the 5 children.
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Could it be the other way (ie Edwin is Henry's son with another woman) and for some reason he then went to live with her / her family after the 1891 census.
It could explain the 1911 entry as from the actual marriage there would have only been the 5 children.
That is very plausible, Deirdre, and something I've considered; unfortunately, outside of Henry's housekeeper Matilda Doe - accounted for across all census records, and never with Edwin after 1891 - there are no leads as to who this mystery woman may have been. It would indeed explain why Edwin is not included as one of Henry & Maria's children on the 1911 census, but having trawled through every Edwin Henry of any surname, I can find no one born c1883 who would be a plausible suspect.
At present my conclusion would be that Edwin either changed his name completely, in which case we will likely never find him, or died at sea/somewhere abroad, in which case poor record-keeping may also mean we'll never find the truth.
If anyone can find even the faintest shred of evidence as to what happened to Edwin, I would be fascinated to know. Sadly, from what I and others have seen, the trail goes ice cold after the 1891 census. I have not even been able to find a baptism for him.
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Why can I only find one with the correct name and year registered in Windsor, Berkshire?
*Edited to say, sorry I just looked at the birth certificate link and it says Egham in the counties of Berks and Surrey.
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Just to add I have one man called Edwin or Edward depending on which census and he is well documented as being baptised and buried but seems to interchange the name, I don't think this was uncommon.
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Have you done any searching under Edwin/Edward Wright? If Edwin was Maria's child it's possible he was given into the care of her family at some point and took their name.
Jann
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Hi Jann,
Yes, I have been down that route and so far found nothing that looks plausible.
I've been through numerous post-1891 Edwin H [surname] marriages/deaths on FreeBMD and been unable to locate anyone. I've also tried the 1911 census with a variety of criteria, even just searching for any Edwins born in Egham. Nothing so far.
Given that Henry registered the birth, I think it is likely that he was the father - I can't imagine he would have chosen to do so otherwise, and presumably he'd have known (or at least had a fair idea) if he wasn't. My feeling is that Edwin was probably a bastard, and Henry chose to name Maria as the mother so as to avoid any scandal. I suppose he could just have told people Maria had given birth in Woking Asylum, and if he chose to raise Edwin at the family home (which it seems he did until at least 1891) then people wouldn't have asked too many questions.
Because either Henry or his son Harry (probably the latter) omitted Edwin from the 1911 family census (i.e. he is not mentioned among the children of Henry & Maria's marriage) I think this is a fairly good indicator that Edwin was indeed a bastard. We know he was not baptized with the other children in 1893 - only two years after the 1891 census - and yet there is no record of his death by that point in time.
If Edwin's mother wasn't Maria, then we have no idea who she was, and therefore who to search for in 1901 and 1911, to see if Edwin is with her.
Any ideas?
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Are you able to search the Bishop's Transcripts for Surrey? I've found some baptism records for a few of mine that weren't on the PR's. Of course that doesn't help in knowing where he disappeared to.......
Have you tried the 1939 Register as you have the DOB, mind you that's not infallible either.....
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My BT's weren't in Surrey by the way but Cheshire.
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Are there any records for the Asylum, I wonder if she was there full time for all those many years, perhaps starting off with a month in, then one at home when she couldn't cope so back in and out.
Sure is a mystery though!!
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If I can find bishops' transcripts for Surrey then I'll look through them. I did find a marriage I wanted recently using the Kent transcripts; I've no idea if the Surrey ones are up on FindMyPast or Ancestry, though.
I have tried the 1939 Register, yes. An Edwin H. Edwards from Leicester with the same birthday (but not year) was a good lead, but I think he has now been discounted.
As for Asylum records... I have some for his mother and sister (both of whom died at Woking Asylum) but nothing for Edwin. I would be keen to know more about Maria's time there, and particularly whether she would have been able to give birth to Edwin in Egham in November 1883, but those records are not online. I would need someone to go to the Surrey History Centre, I think.
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From memory I don't think any BTs for Surrey exist. I wanted to have a look due to issues with apparent missing records in Reigate but couldn't find any and I'm pretty sure that something I came across said none existed for the county as they weren't kept. :-\ That said, I'm happy to be proved wrong. ;D
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I can't find anything on Ancestry or FindMyPast, so you could well be right. I've found quite a few Surrey baptism and marriage images so far, but sadly not a particular marriage I would really like.
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I think a visit to Surrey History Centre might be worth your while. A good day out! Or short break away.
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I think a visit to Surrey History Centre might be worth your while. A good day out! Or short break away.
Cliff Webb, whose a pretty good authority on Surrey records, says in this guide - http://www.wsfhs.co.uk/assets/documents/researchaids/RA11%205th%20Ed%202007.pdf - that few BTs for Surrey exist. If you are making a special journey to Woking, I'd double check that they have any you require as I suspect you may be disappointed.
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Asylum records, if they have any, would be worth a good browse. Again, check first to see if they have any. And check what church/chapel the asylum generally used - to see if there does happen to be a christening of a child of Maria there on the actual PR's.
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Asylum records, if they have any, would be worth a good browse. Again, check first to see if they have any. And check what church/chapel the asylum generally used - to see if there does happen to be a christening of a child of Maria there on the actual PR's.
Good one Liz!!
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As he was born in Egham which is on the border with Berkshire, he could have been baptised over the border. Have you tried checking the Berkshire parishes close to Egham? I don't think any have been transcribed by Berks FHS but they would be at the Archives at Reading.
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Does anyone know if it's likely that Edwin could have been given to the Coram foundation? What would have been the oldest age at which they'd have been likely to accept someone?
Aside from ruling out a number of possible suspects, I am still no further along with this; it's the only major brick wall in my research.
I am just confused as to how Edwin seems to have completely disappeared, and doesn't even appear to have been baptized. Having been unable to find any record of his marriage or death (I've also checked Irish and Scots records, just in case) I'm wondering if he was adopted/given away at some point after the 1891 census -- possibly because his father couldn't or didn't want to look after him, and obviously Maria was in an asylum and unable to do so.
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Did you get to the bottom of this?
Have you tried searching hospital census records for the missing dates - i found one of my ancestors that way, after he was recovering from smallpox!
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I didn’t see this thread at the time, but Matilda Doe, 41, “servant” in the 1891 Hooker household with what are presumably her two teenage sons also there, would have been my prime suspect for Edwin’s true mother, with Henry Hooker as the father.
1891: RG12/1009/124/21
She is still with Henry in 1901 as a “housekeeper” while her lawful husband Charles Doe (born 1838 Egham, a printer and publisher) is alive throughout, dying in Kingston in 1924.
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@in4266
@avm228
No luck finding him yet, no.
Matilda Doe being the mother was something I considered very early on, but she is not the mother according to his birth certificate, and she never appears with him again on another census record. She is accounted for up to about 1930, when she died. Her maiden name was Brooks and she married Charles Doe, and they had about four children. They appear to have separated at some point, and whilst it is possible that Matilda was Edwin's mother, there is no written evidence to substantiate this.
Currently, all we have so far is Edwin's birth certificate and his appearance on the 1891 census. That's it. There is nothing else.