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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Peeblesshire => Topic started by: zumaro on Monday 18 April 16 15:28 BST (UK)
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I am quite confused about my family and their name shifting tendencies. My great great grandmother Jane Melrose was born in 1852 on Waterhead Farm. Apparently on 24 October 1873 she married William Mack in Edinburgh.
Already in the 1881 census I can see some confusion setting in. The family is listed as
William G Mack 36
Jane G Mack 28
Barbara G Mack 6
Marion G Mack 5
Janet Greig 45
where Janet Grieg is listed as an Aunt. My great grandmother Marion is already born.
The 1891 census lists them as
William Greig 46
Jane Greig 38
Barbara Greig 16
Marion Greig 15
William Greig 8
By 1901 William Mack/Greig is gone and the household is listed as
Jane G Mack 48
Barbara G Mack 26
Marion Greig Mack 25
Janet Melrose 40
where Janet Melrose is listed as sister.
After the family went to New Zealand in 1914, Jane G Mack (nee Melrose) was buried as Jane Grieg, and Marion was married and known as Marion Mack Smith.
My question really is twofold - what might be happening here with the constant name changing, and who is William Mack/Greig? I can see a possible household in the 1851 census in Edinburgh
William Mack 39
Margaret Mack 36
Isabella Mack 14
James Mack 10
William Mack 7
but I can't find a birth record for this William Mack.
Another intriguing source is this birth reference
Name: William Greig
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 12 Feb 1845
Birth Place: Beath,Fife,Scotland
Father: William Greig
Mother: Jane Henderson
because my grandfather's brother's middle names were Melrose Henderson and we have no other source of the name Henderson in the family. I can't find this family in any census.
What do people make of this?
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Hi
Were William Mack's parents named on the 1873 marriage certificate ?
ev
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There is a death for a William Greig Mack 1898 Peebles , Peebles , born c1842 on Scotlandspeople.
Jane G Mack is listed as a widow on the 1901 Census transcription I've seen.
ev
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This may be Janet Greig's(aunt on the 1881 Census) baptism -
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY22-BD8
I think Janet's mother , Euphemia Henderson , was William Greig/Mack's grandmother.
1871 Census -
Killburn , Eddlestone , Peebleshire.
Euphemia Greig 82 widow shepherd born Salton East Lothian
Janet Greig 38 daughter shepherd born Pencaitland East Lothian
William Greig 27 grand son railway surface(?) born Edinburgh Midlothian
William G Mack's occupation in 1881 is railway platelayer
ev
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From the 1873 marriage cert. William Mack 30 railway surfaceman and Jane Melrose 24(both of Eddlestone)
William's parents are given as William Mack and Marion Cochrane ???
ev
Added -
The 1898 death cert has William's parents as William Mack coachman and Marion Greig ,
wife Jane Melrose , informant Marion Greig Mack daughter.
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Thank you! While I have been asleep (I am over in shaky Japan) you have got much further than I have ever been able to. I only had the transcription of the marriage certificate - can I ask where you go to see the original and get the details? Are there Jane's parents on it as well? I am pretty certain they are Adam and Barbara Melrose - Barbara (maiden name also Melrose) connects easily into other well established trees, but Adam is a bit of a mystery man.
I am mainly looking around on ancestry.com, myheritage.com and familysearch.com and I had not managed to find William Mack's death certificate at all. Your source is also giving better information on the 1901 census than I can see.
The 1871 census looks very promising as well. Wouldn't it imply that William Mack's grandparents on his mother's side are Hugh Greig and Euphemia Henderson, who had daughters Marion and Janet?
Have you seen this degree of family name shifting before? It looks like this family should be Mack, but by New Zealand Jane Melrose and Marion Mack have settled on Greig as the family name. Jane was known as Granny Greig, and I have always heard Marion called Marion Mack Smith. When I suggested to existing family members who knew her, that her family name was actually not Greig, it was met with puzzlement - similarly her father was presumed to be William Greig. I wonder why the indeterminacy?
Again thank you for your wonderful work here - you are cutting through the mystery much better than I have managed!
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The 1873 marriage and 1898 death certificates are here - http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
They also have the original Census returns.(Pay per view).
Jane Melrose's parents are given as Adam Melrose & Barbara(maiden surname Melrose).
Too tired tonight but if you wait until tomorrow I'll see if I can send you futher information on the marriage , death , and other possible Census transcriptions.
ev
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I am just so grateful for your work here. I have the opposite problem here - too early in the morning to think rationally!
And I see the conundrum - if William Mack's mother is Marion Cochrane, why the Greig name? Is it possible she was married earlier to a Cochrane? Would they record her earlier married name rather than her maiden name as William's mother. Whatever is going on here, Janet Greig plays a large part in the family.
Thanks again!
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1861 Census Killburn Eddleston Peebleshire
Uphemia Grieg 71 ploughman's widow born Sutton East Lothian
Janet Greig 30 daughter unmarried born Pencaitland East Lothian
William Greig 21 grand son unmarried born Edinburgh Midlothian
1851 Census Kilburn Eddleston Peebleshire
Hugh Greig 60 ag. lab. born Eddleston Pebbleshire
Euphamia Greig 62 wife born Sutton Midlothian
Janet Greig 22 Daughter ag. lab. born Pencaitland East Lothian
William MCPOOL 13 grand son born Edinburgh Midlothian
Not sure if William McPool is your William :-\
ev
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1841 Census Tyne Mount , Ormiston , East Lothian.
Hugh Greig 45 ag lab born Outside Census County
Euphemia Greig 50 b. East Lothian
Helen Greig 18 b. East Lothian
Janet Greig 12 b. East Lothian
William Greig 3 b. Outside Census County
No relationships are given on the 1841 Census , so again unsure if this is your William
Baptism for Helen ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY22-B3F
On the 1873 marriage cert. William's father(William) is listed as deceased but his mother Marion is not.
ev
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Are you as confused as me? About the only constant things seem to be that William Mack Jr's father was William Mack and his mother was Marion.
William Mack and Jane Melrose's children seem to be following that conventional naming rule (if I have them all correct that is). First born is Barbara Melrose Mack, named precisely after mother's mother Barbara Melrose. Second born daughter is Marion Grieg Mack, presumably named after father's mother Marion Greig (which is a variant of mothers name listed on the death certificate). Third born daughter is named Janet Grieg Mack - wasn't the oldest daughter in the mothers family the next to be honored - and we do have an Aunt Janet Grieg named in the 1881 census. First born son is named William after father's father. So that pattern is holding.
But why Marion Cochrane? You might think this to be more accurate, as she was alive when William and Jane got married, but seems to be deceased as well by the time her son dies (am I reading that correctly?).
And what of that Greig family with the tempting surname of Henderson floating around (to match up with my Grandfather's brothers middle name). William McPool? He is Greig before and after the 1851 census, and McPool has to be a rare rare family name. He seems to be too old to be William Mack - his birth date is pretty consistent at around 1838, whereas William Mack seems to be born around 1845. Janet Greig looks to be the right age to be the Aunt Janet Greig however. I see that Euphemia and Hugh had several children, but I can't see a Marion among them however, which would have been convenient (give or take the Cochrane conundrum).
And why the constant fluctuation in family name between Grieg and Mack? I am getting the feeling that these people are anarchists, deliberately fouling up the government records!
Thanks for all this information by the way - the pics of those documents are wonderful to see.
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I just found a tree on ancestry.com that has the information slightly wrong, in that he has William as a son of Euphemia and Hugh Greig, rather than grandson. Interestingly however he has Euphemia Henderson as the daughter of George Henderson and Euphemia Cochrane. However he has no Marion Greig listed as the daughter of Hugh and Euphemia.
I have less and less doubt that William Greig in the earlier family is the same as William Mack in the later family. The presence of Janet in both households, with the same age difference between her and William, and the fact that she is described as his Aunt, is fairly convincing. But also William Greig the railway worker from Eddlestone in the 1871 census matches well with William G Mack the railway plate layer from Eddlestone in the 1881 census.
Here is my conjecture as to what has happened here with this family. I think there is a missing daughter of Hugh and Euphemia Grieg named Marion. She marries William Mack and they have a son William. For some reason William ends up being raised by his grandparents Euphemia and Hugh Greig.
William Mack dies young and Marion Grieg/Mack remarries William Cochrane - there is a marriage 12 July 1864 in Edinburgh Parish between Marion Greig and William Cochrane, which could be her. This is many years before her son's marriage to Jane Melrose in 1873, so she is described on her son's marriage certificate as Marion Mack/Cochrane.
And it seems that William Greig Mack, born Mack but raised as a Greig keeps varying his family name between Mack and Greig, with the family eventually settling on Greig by the time his widow and daughter migrate to New Zealand.
Of course this all relies on finding a plausible Marion Grieg/Mack/Cochrane daughter of Euphemia and Hugh....
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Two references to possible marriages for Hugh and Euphemia -
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY9L-RMB
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTGK-YL3
If that's the correct couple there would be plenty of time for other children before Helen was born in 1822.
If William Mack and Marion were married why would their son use the surname Greig ?
Just a thought.
ev
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I thought they might be married because Marion is referred to as Marion Mack in both the marriage and birth certificates? William being illegitimate might explain why he was with his grandparents however, particularly if Marion was young. Maybe her husband died and she couldn't cope. It seemed reasonable to me that if William Mack was bought up totally in the Greig household, as it appears he was, then he might call himself Greig. Maybe he was adopted?
On the contrary side to all this theorising, I can't see any leads for a Marion Greig, daughter of Hugh and Euphemia whatsoever. And no leads for a marriage to a William Mack, and no birth certificate for a son. There aren't many promising candidates for a William Mack senior either. And the records of these people seem to be fairly detailed. You might expect Marion to be back home with her parents, if she was either unmarried or if her husband had died, but she never appears in any census. It looks as if she is not part of this family at all... I am not sure what other scenarios could be invented however.
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The http://www.freereg.org.uk/ website has Andrew Greig son of Hugh Greig(ploughman) and Euphemia Henderson of Lampeckwells Pencaitland , birth 29th October 1814 , baptism 20th November 1814.
Also , to the same parents Thomas Greig born 1816 , Hugh born 1819 , Helen born 1822 , James born
1825 , and Janet born 1829.
No Marion :(
ev
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Doesn't look very hopeful, considering that William Greig was supposedly born circa 1838 by the first census (although I wonder if that is a mistranscription for 3 months, because elsewhere it would seem he is born 1841/42). Not a lot of space for Marion in that sequence.
Well it was a nice theory... It still looks to me as if William Greig is William Mack, because of the occupation of railway worker, location of Eddlestone and Aunty Janet living with him. But I have no idea who Marion is, if she isn't Janet's sister.
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There is a birth entry on 22 March 1838 for William Mack, son of William Mack and Marion Cochrane, born in Canongate, Edinburgh. ???
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You would think that has to be him :)
So what's the connection to the Greig family ?
No credits left to look at the entry on SP , can't see any other children born to this couple.
ev
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Again thanks for all your help - you have really helped further my knowledge and I am very grateful. I have a better idea of William Greig Mack now, even if at this point it really is mysterious what is happening with him. I think we have him identified too - son of Marion Cochrane and William Mack in 1838, raised by Euphemia Henderson and Thomas Greig as their grandson, and spending the rest of his life switching between the family names Mack and Greig.
The even more mysterious figure is Marion Cochrane or maybe Greig. She doesn't seem to be related to anyone you might expect (or for that matter seem to be part of any other family that I can find). I really don't understand what is going on here! Maybe William Greig Mack was adopted by the Greigs, but if so why? Maybe the reported relationships are just wrong - but its strange that Janet is an Aunt, and Thomas Greig is his grandparent. It all seems remarkably consistent if he isn't some kind of integral part of this family.
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Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but the new ScotlandsPeople site seems to have made it easier to locate women's records under multiple family names they may have been associated with. So on doing a search for Marion Cochrane, I could quickly put together a quite coherent story, albeit one that needs some fleshing out in the details.
1. William Mack/Greig is the son of William Mack, coachman, and Marion Cochrane, who lived in Coull's Close, Canongate. I am not sure when they married - I can find a marriage for Margaret Cochrane and William Mack in the right timeframe, but I am not sure this is them.
2. William Mack died in 1837 just months before his son was born in 1838. This resulted in William Mack/Greig being handed over to his grandmother Euphemia Henderson, then married to Hugh Greig. (Marion Cochrane's death certificate says her parents are William Cochrane, farmer and Euphemia Henderson).
3. William Mack/Greig is bought up by the Greigs until adulthood. He is present on all the censuses with the family from 1841 to 1871, and he is present at the death of Euphemia Henderson, where he is described as her grandson (under the name William Greig). To cement the relationship even further Janet Greig, described as his Aunt, is present in the newly wedded Mack household in 1881
4. Marion Cochrane goes on to marry Robert Mather in 1844, having 3 children James, Mary and Hugh. Robert unluckily also dies young in 1867 at the age of 45 - Marion seems to be rather ill fated in her choice of husbands. She lives with (or nearby) son Hugh until her death in 1891 (called Marion or Minie Mather in the censuses), and he dies a pauper in Edinburgh in 1922. Her death certificate, explicitly says that Marion Mather is the widow of William Mack coachman, and Robert Mather contractor, with daughter Mary Mather as witness.
I think I can see Marion Cochrane in the 1841 census in South Leith, as Marion Mack with daughters Euphemia and Agnes. There is a Euphemia Mack born to William Mack and Mary Cochrane in 1835 in Coull's Close, Canongate, but there William Mack is described as a tailor rather than a coachman, so I am not sure about this.
It would be great to find Marion in the 1851 and 1861 censuses but she is missing (she would be Marion Mather). Then that might confirm the two daughters. Robert Mather is a contractor in South Leith, so her being there in 1841 would fit geographically.
Another mystery is I can find a marriage certificate for Marion Cochrane/Mack to Robert Mather in 1844, but there her father is described as Andrew Cochrane Inn Keeper. Also I can find no references to the marriage of Euphemia Henderson to either Andrew or William Cochrane, which I presume could have predated her marriage to Hugh Greig, but there is a William Cochrane who dies in Canongate in 1813, just prior to her marriage to Hugh Greig in 1814. No idea if this related!
So this is a much more coherent story, albeit with detail difficulties, and certainly goes some way to fitting all the facts. If anyone can find the Mathers in the 1851 or 1861 censuses it would be great, or find evidence of Euphemia Henderson's life prior to marrying Hugh Greig this would be helpful. I note as another oddity that may or may not be relevant, that Mary Cochrane's mother Euphemia Henderson's parents are George Henderson and Euphemia Cochrane.
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Moving fast now on this - still no sign of the 1861 census returns, but Freecen gives me the 1851 results that has Maran and Robert Mather, with children Mary, James, Agnes and Philip, and step daughter Euph, living in St Cuthbert's, Edinburgh. So this is definitely them.
The 1841 census with Marion Mack, daughters Euphemia and Agnes Mack in South Leith is also them, as I have found the death entry for Agnes Mack, daughter of coachman (strapper) William Mack in 1848 in Canongate. No birth entry for her however.
This investigation is working out quite well - thanks to the new Scotlandspeople site! I almost have the full story of this family.