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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: moo on Wednesday 20 April 16 13:34 BST (UK)
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Good Afternoon
I am hoping that you may be able to help identify the uniform that this handsome chap is wearing, I believe it may be the same as you helped me with yesterday (Thomas Middlemist).
This chap I believe is his stepson James Robertson Gibson born Jedburgh 1895.
Regards
Moo
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The only hope I can see is with his collar badge - a cross.
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Was your man married to Margaret Burns in 1913?
maxD
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Could be Prince of Wales feathers. Regiments stopped using collar badges during WW1, and from his age looks to be early 1920s. If so his record will still be with the MOD.
Ken
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Hello Max D
No he married Jessie Knox Turnball 1927 Jedburgh
Regards
Moo
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I have being trying to compare, and so far I have found, Wiltshire or Boarders Regiment, but I have no idea, and I realise the photo is not very clear.
Regards
Moo
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I see a cross as well though very unclear......................maybe Scottish Horse but will need a clearer image.
James
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I'm afraid this is the best I can get, and that rules my feeble effort of trying to find the regiment right out of the window lol.
Regards
Moo
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Sorry to waste your time, a wild guess.
maxD
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No worries MaxD, you never know could have been a link lol.
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Tried to darken the badge a bit to see if it made a difference, I thought it was Army Cyclists to start with but I don't think it is.
I've seen this collar badge and cannot for the life of me find it again ::)
I'm wondering if its one of the "Lancers"
Frank.
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I wonder if it was Intelligence Corps?
Or a new branch of some specialised unit.. Camoflage Specialists. or a secret undercover outfit.
Or Education Corps.
or Staff College?
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I may be seeing things that aren't there but is the collar one of the "stand-up" type rather than the one that folds down.leaving a "V" in the middle that is on a British uniform. It may be that the stand up collar was part of a British uniform, Ken will probably know, but if not then perhaps he is not British (Moo wasn't definite about his identity) or is in some other country's uniform?
Edit - there seem to be a rather large number of buttons?
axD
(Imprecision of tailoring terms regretted!)
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Yes. It could be Australian or Canadian.
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Thank you for all your help and suggestions, the person I think it is, was born in Jedburgh, and I thought it would have been the step son of Thomas Middlemist, because he is pictured with one of Thomas's daughters, and in the 1911 census he was living with them, aged 15.
Then again I could be totally wrong :-\
Regards Moo
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Referring to http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/uniforms/uniform.htm, the seven button tunic, the stand up collar pleated pockets and the gauntlet cuff (which can be made out on the sleeve) are all characteristics of the Canadian Army uniform which the reference suggests was still worn after WW1.
(Australians had a V collar and straight cuffs.
Can't find the collar dogs though (yet).
Could he simply have been a passing Canadian boy friend rather than a relative (he does look a bit smooth).
maxD
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I hope not maxD - Gran would have been aged 12 - 16 years :o, but I do agree he does look a bit of a smoothie.
Moo ;D
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Bingo (Maybe)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Voltigeurs_de_Qu%C3%A9bec. Google also Les Voltigeurs de Quebec uniform images.
Date could well have been during the war if Canadian.
maxD
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Ooh! I nearly had kittens ;D ;D ;D ::)
Thought it could have been a Canadian signals Regiment?
I think there are signal flags on the badge :-\
Frank (Still looking)
http://cefresearch.ca/matrix/images/badges2008/CEF_CSC%2033_2.gif
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Would have been so much easier if they had written on the back ;D
Km suggested earlier - Prince of Wales feathers, but I can't seem to find a badge to look at.
Regards
Moo
very grateful for all the help
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Has no-one read my post of 1752 and looked at the badge and the uniform details?
maxD
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Has no-one read my post of 1752 and looked at the badge and the uniform details?
maxD
Hi maxD, yes, just, :) I have to admit I don't think there is a match tho' unless I'm missing something (which is highly likely, as I must have looked at hundreds of images ;D ;) )
Frank.
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Sorry MaxD I did read it, but the badge is a different shape (unless my glasses have given up) and it also said that there was a Scottish Pattern, am I missing something,I 'm sorry I have no idea when it comes to military.
Regards
Moo
(typical female - a uniform is a uniform) ;D
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Moo the reference to a Scottish pattern refers to a variation on the British tunic which has 5 buttons (not seven as in the pic) and a plain end of the sleeve (not a gauntlet as in the pic).
I would have thought the uniform pattern at least is conclusive that it is not British? I'll leave the badge.
maxD
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Thank you MaxD,
I know nothing about uniforms other than
Army - Greenish, RAF- Greyish.
Sorry
Moo
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Thank you MaxD,
I know nothing about uniforms other than
Army - Greenish, RAF- Greyish.
Sorry
Moo
Erm, ............ And Navy, Blueish ;D ;D ;D ;)
Frank :)
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Ive put link on Great War Forum.Canadian links
Ady
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Thank you Ady I note that responses I've seen so far over there tend to confirm my solid view that the uniform is Canadian.
You beat me to it but I was going for a Canadian based forum - wait out!
maxD
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Here you go, it looks like it's this one,
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f366/Atillathenunns/LanceCorporalJamesHenryWalker35752.jpg
I thought I could see a signals flag.
Frank.
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New Zealand Mounted Rifles Brigade Machine Gun Section. ;)
Frank.
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Moo - You mentioned Grandmother's age in an earlier post, from that, would you like to guess at the time frame of the photo?
And - is there any connection (relatives/neighbours) with her family with people of any of the following surnames:
Keddie
Oliver
Middlemass
McNair
Singleton
maxD
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The Question of the badge ID throws a spanner into the works I suspect, :-\
unless I'm wrong about it, what does anyone think?
Frank
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Frank. The NZ tunic was similar to the British, five buttons and a collar that folds down. Your pic shows both extremely well but the NZ tunic bears no resemblance to the 7 button, stand up collar, gauntlet cuff and diagonal seam running up from the pocket inwards towards the collar that are characteristic of the Canadian uniform and are all shown well in the photo we are asked to identify. I therefore respectfully submit that the picture we are asked to identify is not of a NZ soldier but of a Canadian.
You are right in that this will turn on identification of the collar badge (although I have other irons in the fire!). You will have noted the responses on the other forum regarding the tunic. I am awaiting responses from a CEF forum.
maxD
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Thanks maxD :) the hunt continues ;)
However I am not convinced that the tunic shown on my reply number 28 is entirely different to the opening photograph, onwards and upwards.
Frank.
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Moo and friends
You may wish to compare this photo of a member of the Canadian Forestry Corps (with thanks to John Milner in another place) with your photo.
http://guysboroughgreatwarveterans.blogspot.co.uk/2012_02_01_archive.html
There were units of the Forestry Corps stationed in Scotland during the Great War. I am working on pinning it down a bit more closely.
maxD
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Moo and friends
You may wish to compare this photo of a member of the Canadian Forestry Corps (with thanks to John Milner in another place) with your photo.
http://guysboroughgreatwarveterans.blogspot.co.uk/2012_02_01_archive.html
There were units of the Forestry Corps stationed in Scotland during the Great War. I am working on pinning it down a bit more closely.
maxD
[/quote)
That's very nice maxD, I think you possibly have it there, if not then its very very close, it gets my vote for what its worth :)
Frank.
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Thank you Frank.
For info - the CEF forum and links from there confirm that there were 2 companies of the Forestry Corps stationed at Jedburgh. There are two Commonwealth War graves of Forestry Corps men in Jedburgh Castlewood cemetery
Moo - may I have your approval to post your picture on that forum specifically to see if he can be identified.
maxcD
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............................... For info - the CEF forum and links from there confirm that there were 2 companies of the Forestry Corps stationed at Jedburgh. There are two Commonwealth War graves of Forestry Corps men in Jedburgh Castlewood cemetery............................................................
maxcD
Stunning, nail on head comes to mind ;)
Frank.
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Good afternoon,
I would say Canadian as well, there were 15 forestry coy's but only 6 badges found so far. 3 are the standard maple leaf these are the other 3. Only the centre differs slightly.
John915
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And again,
This may have been fairly early in the war. The Canadian uniform was fairly close fitting and after a short time on the front was deemed unsuitable. They then started issuing them with the British service dress which was much looser in fit.
John915
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Thank you John 815, the badges are totally clear. Although the history of the CFC states that there were 41 Companies in Britain and 60 in France by the end of the war!
Two companies of the Canadian Forestry Corps were stationed at Jedburgh, 127 Company from Oct 1917 - Feb 1919 and 139 Company March 1918 - Apr 1919.
We were invited to identify the uniform in the photo posted at the beginning of this thread. I am personally now in no doubt that the man pictured is a member of the Canadian Forestry Corps, most likely from one or other of the two companies stationed around the Jedburgh area in 1917-1919. What he was doing be photographed with a young lady one can only guess, perhaps the Scottish families were invited to offer some hospitality to the Canadians in their midst and the photograph was taken to remind him of them.
If Moo agrees to my request for permission to post the pic elsewhere, it may be interesting to see if he can be identified.
I rest my case M'Lud.
maxD
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Hello Everyone MaxD, Frank
You are all stars, of course you can post his picture, would love to know if he can be identified, if he is not James Robertson Gibson. The female he was pictured with was called Middlemist, Jedburgh, but I have found spelling for Middlemis, Miss, Mass, Most. I am going through records to see if he Emigrated, and then ended up back in Jed. I would date the photo about 1917/ 1918 /1919 somewhere round there.
The pictures of the uniforms in the link were very similar, fingers crossed.
Regards
Moo
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I rest my case M'Lud................................
maxD
Case proven M'Lud ;)
Frank.
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Thanks Moo - watch this space. (I didn't find his name in the Canadian Forces archive though so it looks like a non family man).
Thanks to all who contributed to this most interesting thread!
maxD
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Evening
I have found the attached details for a J R Gibson
I may just be grasping at straws
Regards
Moo
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While he may of course have transferred later, this man was a member of the Royal Canadian Artillery (that's what the CFA means - Canadian Field Artillery) and his collar dogs would have been as pictured.
He doesn't come up in the Canadian Archives list of CEF soldiers at first search which is strange. I'll have a go at the Canadian CEF site again.
maxD
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I should have said I found it on Forces War Records, I also checked briefly for males of the right age leaving Scotland for Canada before the out break of the War and found 6 :'(, none of which I can match up.
Regards
Moo
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Are we sure he survived the war?
Frank.
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Yes , I'm sure I have a copy of his marriage certificate dated 1927 Jedburgh to a Jessie Knox Turnball
witnessed by his step-father Thomas Middlemist and Step Sister Mary Ann Middlemist.
Regards
Moo
ps
Just found the Jedburgh war memorial lists a James Robertson (no Gibson on the end) Canadians and a William Middlemist Canadians. At the moment I can't place the William Middlemist in my family tree.
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You said you'd seen the spelling Middlemass. Does William Middlemass born about 1887 son of Thomas Middlemass, brother of a Mrs King, mean anything?
maxD
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Sorry No MaxD
The mixed spellings all seem to be before 1881 or abroad (not UK), but I will dig out my file and have a look through.
Regards
Moo
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http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1571836/MIDDLEMIS,%20WILLIAM%20SELBY
This is the lad on Jedburgh WM.
Ady
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Thank you Ady, I shall certainly look into that ;D
Regards
Moo
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Scotlands GRO gives William Selby Middlemass - born Jedburgh 1886
Yet the Jedburgh plaque states Middlemist
The Cwgc gives Middlemis son of Thomas and Elizabeth Middlemis
I'm still looking to see if I am a Thomas missing from the tree, because if I am then it's possible the picture could have been of cousins, and it's not her step brother James Robertson Gibson.
Regards
Moo
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My earlier post asking about Middlemass was referring to the Southern Reporter newspaper report on 28 June 1917 of the death of Lance Sergeant William Middlemass (that spelling) son of the late Thomas Middlemass, horse breaker Jedburgh. His sister, Mrs King, received a letter from his unit. He had been 12 years in Canada. His attestation paper, which is catalogued as Middlemiss and on which he spells his name Middlemis (!!!) is at http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=191752
The unit on the document is the 102nd Battalion CEF. Can't (yet) find his "circumstances of death" in the archives, the alphabetical filing is a bit hit and miss! His service number is that of the CWGC entry.
This would be the man on the war memorial despite the variety of spellings! He is not the man in the photo, the 102nd Bn wore a variation of the maple leaf.
maxD
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Wow MaxD
Thank you for all the work your doing. There were two Middlemist families in Jedburgh, One line was the horse breaker and the others were tailors - that's my line, so I am really pleased that it is not the man in the photo.
I have yet to find a link (if there is one) between the two families, as they all used the same names for their children. I think I might end up having to trace Williams line back and see where it takes me.
Regards
Moo
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Just closing the loop on the JR Gibson you found on Forces War Records. He has been found on 35 CFA roll, he is John Robert Gibson, born Canada. His number is incorrect on FWR - not that it matters!
maxD
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Thank you MaxD - another one for the recycling bin.
Regards
Moo
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Grasping at straws here but I'm looking to find out what happened to a Tom White 127 Company CFC based at Birkenside Camp Jedburgh between 1917 and 1918. Pte Whites Service No was 1037681. Have found his attestation papers when he signed up in 1916 in Vancouver but little more. I believe there to be a connection to a Lizzie McLaughlin from Hawick a few miles d*own the road. Posted this just in case anyone came across this name in their research. Thanks for reading post,
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Grasping at straws here but I'm looking to find out what happened to a Tom White 127 Company CFC based at Birkenside Camp Jedburgh between 1917 and 1918. Pte Whites Service No was 1037681. Have found his attestation papers when he signed up in 1916 in Vancouver but little more. I believe there to be a connection to a Lizzie McLaughlin from Hawick a few miles d*own the road. Posted this just in case anyone came across this name in their research. Thanks for reading post,
May I suggest that you start a new thread, because tagging this query on to a long running thread then your query is likely to get lost in "the fog of War" to coin a phrase, ;D