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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: Tuggybear on Friday 22 April 16 16:55 BST (UK)
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I don't know if anyone can help, I am struggling with my Tolleys again. I have James Tolley born in 1841 to John Tolley and Elizabeth ? as my husband's great grandfather. James married Maria Hart in Leicester in 1863.
I believe James died in 1872 in Leicester but can't find any burial record for him.
John and Elizabeth both claim to have been born in Yorkshire in 1841 by which point they were living in Bowling green Street, Warwick St Mary with their children, three of whom were not born in Warwick. I can't find any of the children in the BMD section of Ancestry Thomas was born around 1821. Salley was born around 1826 and Ellen was born around 1828 in Yorkshire. Elizabeth was born around 1838 in Warwick St Mary and James followed in 1841.
John was born in 1791 and the nearest I can find is a christening in Doncaster on 24th April 1791. I can't find a marriage for him and Elizabeth ? though I presume it was around 1820
I also can't find the deaths of John or Elizabeth.
Can anyone shed any light on my troublesome Tolleys please? Would be very grateful for any help you can give. Thanks in advance. :)
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You won't find the eldest three children in the birth index because they were born before civil registration started in 1837. The youngest two were both registered in Warwick registration district - Elizabeth Oct-Dec 1838 and James Jul-Sep 1841. If you order the birth certificate for either of these, it will give you their mother's maiden name, which may help you find John and Elizabeth's marriage.
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There is a marriage on Family Search 1819 :
Name John Tolley
Spouse's Name Elizabeth Conlay
Event Date 28 Dec 1819
Event Place Saint Martin,Birmingham,Warwick,England
may be a possible given registration district of two of the children.
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Have you found John and Elizabeth after 1841? There is a death of John Tolley in Leicester in the 2nd quarter of 1862. Maybe the whole family moved to Leicestershire, which is why son James married and died there...
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There is one at Welford road for 1872
N 2394 C
TOLLEY JAMES 1872 MAR 24 Age 30 LOWER VINE STREET ALL SAINTS
James Tolley Q1 Leicester 7A/162
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John that clairecc666 mentioned, Welford road
TOLLEY JOHN 1862 JUN 8 71 THE PINGLE ALL SAINTS
Buried with John
GAMBLE ELIZABETH 1868 MAR 13 2 THE PINGLE ALL SAINTS
TOLLEY MARY JANE 1871 MAR 14 15MTHS LOWER VINE STREET ALL SAINTS
GAMBLE GEORGE ALBERT 1874 NOV 28 4MTHS PINGLE STREET SAINT MARGARET
TOLLEY ELIZABETH 1878 MAR 2 77 PINGLE STREET ALL SAINTS
MANTON ELIZABETH 1940 DEC 16 77 17 GLENDOWER CLOSE LEICESTER
25-Dec All Saints 1861
GAMBLE George
TOLLEY Elizabeth
1851
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKVT-Y59D
1861
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7YW-1BC
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Thanks for all the replies and the information everyone. I will buy a birth certificate for James to find his mother's maiden name as you suggest Clairec666 but the marriage in Birmingham that 3sillydogs has found looks quite interesting as I know that James' son, George henry Tolly, left his wife Lois and their 3 or 4 children (Struggling with a daughter named Nellie who does not appear on the census in 1901 but is on the census for 1911 and Lois has changed the number of children from the 3 that we know about to 4. No one has heard of Nellie so she seems to have been something of an enigma.) and moved to Birmingham.
Thanks for the burial records for Welford Road Willsy, they do seem to fit in with my Tolleys so will do a bit more investigating on them.
Thanks again for the help. :)
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1841 census shows their children as Thomas bc.1821, Salley bc.1825, Ellen bc.1828, Elizabeth bc.1838 plus James followed in 1841.
From what I can see it looks like John and Elizabeth were in Worcestershire before going to Warwickshire. In Warwickshire their church was St. Mary, Warwick and from parish records and also census family seems to be:
Thomas bc.1821 - don't know where
Sarah (Sally pet name of Sarah) b.11/3/1826, bp.26/3/1826 Wesleyan, Kidderminster
Ellen bp.21/2/1828 Kidderminster
Jane bp.15/5/1830 Kidderminster - bur.8/5/1837 St. Mary, Warwick aged 7
Mary Ann bp.24/1/1833 Kidderminster - bur.18/5/1837 St. Mary, Warwick aged 4
John bp.5/1/1836 St. Mary, Warwick - died??
George bp.7/5/1837 St. Mary, Warwick - also died 1837 (death index)
Elizabeth bp.13/10/1838 St. Mary, Warwick
James bp.21/8/1841 St. Mary, Warwick
The only anomaly is that I can't find an appropriate Thomas bc.1821 - plus a census refers to a Joseph bc.1832 and can't see anything on him either.
I really do think you need the birth certificate for James Tolley - as you've indicated you will - to confirm his mothers maiden name. There were in fact at least 3 couples named John and Elizabeth baptising children in Warwickshire - one is your couple (John being a Wool Carder/variants), one other John is a Blacksmith, my point being that the John Tolley/Elizabeth Conelay marriage could relate to one of the other couples since it took place in Birmingham itself where the other 2 couples baptised their children.
It was finding 2 burials at St. Mary, Warwick for Jane bc.1830 and Mary Ann bc.1833 who weren't baptised there that set me looking for them and in the process found their baptisms at Kidderminster together with those of Salley (Sarah) and Ellen but nothing for Thomas.
From the census Elizabeth is said to have been born ca.1800 at Emley, Yorkshire (one census has Hemley). Bearing in mind that 4 children baptised in Kidderminster, Worcestershire 1826-1833 I found the following marriage:
John Tolley married Elizabeth Milnthorpe 15/11/1824 Ribbesford, Worcestershire
Familysearch shows an Elizabeth Milthorpe bp.14/2/1800 Emley, Yorkshire, dau. of Thomas and Sarah (the names of her first 2 children).
Just on the off chance as Thomas would appear to have been born before the 1824 marriage I looked for a baptism for him under Milnthorpe and familysearch shows:
Thomas Milnthorp or Radley b.24/8/1821, bp.4/11/1821 Emley, Yorkshire, son of Elizabeth Milnthorp. However, his original baptism entry is shown on ancestry and although the record is somewhat faint there appears to be no sign of the name Radley at all so don't know where familysearch got that from!
Naturally, after all this I am hoping that the birth certificate for James will reveal his mothers maiden name to be Milnthorpe.
I must admit that when I saw the 1841 census with a 10 year gap between Ellen and Elizabeth I wondered whether 'Elizabeth' was possibly a 2nd wife. However, upon discovering that at least 4 children had been born/died between 1830 and 1837 I scrubbed that thought and with the discovery of the marriage in 1824 in Worcestershire followed Elizabeth Milnthorpe who was indeed born 1800 Emley, Yorks. and who also had an illeg. son Thomas there in 1821 it all fitted together nicely. Hopefully, the birth certificate will confirm this.
Annette
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No idea where poor Nellie was in 1901 but there certainly appears to be a birth entry for her:
Nellie Tolley June quarter 1895 Leicester.
Annette
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Annette7 thank you for that, it certainly seems that the birth certificate will indicate that this is indeed my family and Elizabeth Milnthorpe fits in with the census so I am keeping my fingers crossed that you have found the John and Elizabeth I am searching for. Obviously Thomas was either not John's son or was born before they married in this case.
I did wonder about the long gap between the older children and their younger siblings and wondered if I was looking for a first marriage too. I hadn't realised that Jane and Mary Ann had died in Warwick and, if they are indeed part of my Tolley family as it seems they may well be, I'd really appreciate it if you would let me have the burial details.
I had Emma confused with Emma Elizabeth christened in Birmingham St Martin as after her marriage to Richard Bullivant in 1850 she used the name Elizabeth on at least one census return.
I feel rather sorry for Nellie as my mum-in-law knows nothing about her and refuses to believe she existed as her mum, aunts and grandmother never mentioned her. I am wondering if she was something to do with George Henry disappearing to Birmingham after 1901 and if that was part of the reason that Grandma never forgave him.
I know there were big family secrets as one aunt took her own life and eventually I discovered it was because she thought her husband, a wealthy and educated man, was having an affair. he denied this but Jane was certain and it drove her to end her life. Investigating this I discovered that it is indeed highly possible that he was having an affair and that after emigrating he came back to England, married his lover and took her and their son back with him. These Tolley's are certainly getting me burning the midnight oil but they are quite an interesting family to research.
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I have given you the burial details of Jane and Mary Ann already - just states burial date and age.
Only the birth certificate of the Nellie Tolley birth June quarter 1895 Leicester will tell you if she was indeed the daughter of George Henry and Lois.
Annette
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Thanks again Annette, sorry, I read your original reply through very quickly and didn't take all the information in properly. Thank you so much.
Yes, I need to get a birth certificate for Nellie to try and discover her story and maybe what happened to her between 1895 and 1911 and indeed after 1911. :)
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Yes, Nellie does seem to be a mystery after 1911. I wonder if the 1895 birth is indeed her that she was a child of Lois and not George Henry?? Perhaps he was working away or they'd been a parting of the ways for a while and he definitely wasn't the father. Since Lois' legal name was Tolley any child she had that wasn't her husbands would still be registered as Tolley.
If George and Lois had split for a while and then got back together he might have refused to have Nellie living with them - believe there were a couple of Nellies shown as adopted in 1901 in Leicester and Nellie Tolley could have been farmed out, so to speak. I note that one of the adoptees is shown as Nellie Blank bc.1895 birthplace unknown with a Samuel and Sarah Jennings. Sounds like the adopted 'parents' didn't know her real surname or where she was born. No Nellie Blank that fits on last census and certainly not with Samuel Jennings.
Please post again on this thread when you get Nellie Tolley's birth certificate for 1895. I certainly can't see any obvious marriage/death for her in the name of Tolley (in Leicester anyway) but a full birthdate might help identify in death index if she died after 1968. Nor can I find her in emigration records.
Frustrating, isn't it?
Annette
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Have had a look at baptisms, but they are just reference
St Margaret
TOLLEY CYRIL WILLIAM LOIS MARIA 1907 31-Mar
TOLLEY NEVA GEORGE HENRY & LOIS 1904 14-Nov
St Andrews
TOLLEY ELIZABETH ANN GEORGE HENRY & LOIS MARY 22-Jun 1897
On the school index register
Tolley Elizabeth Ann born 23 Aug 1891
Tolley Neva 20 born Nov 1903
and on the school leaving dates, microfiche records at Leicester records office
Leaving date
28 Jul 1905 Tolley Elizabeth Ann age 14
20 Dec 1901 Tolley Lois M age 12
7 May 1909 Tolley Nellie (Golby) age 14
16 Nov 1917 Tolley Neva age 14
Confused you some more I think!
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Well, willsy's findings seems to open up a can of worms.
There is no birth for a Nellie Golby 1895 Leicester BUT there is as we know a Nellie Tolley.
On 1901 census a William Golby and wife Mabel Lee Golby have a William Golby bc.1884, Nellie Golby bc.1896 and a Mabel D. Golby 5 mos.
On next census Nellie Golby 15 is still with William and Mabel - occupation Fancy Hosiery.
Yet, the Nellie Tolley who is 'missing' in 1901 is with mother Lois and they are involved in Hosiery too!!
I then found a marriage for a Nellie T. Golby to a Charles F. Thompson in 1918 Leicester.
This then lead me to check ancestry trees and found that Charles Frederick Thompson married Nellie Tolley Golby 24/12/1918 Leicester. Nellie is said to have been born 13/5/1895 Leicester and died 28/4/1986 Leicester as Nellie Tolley Thompson. However, the tree I looked at states that Nellie Golby is the dau. of William Golby and wife Mabel Lee and yet her birth is registered in the name of Tolley?? William Golby didn't marry Mabel until 1899 and she was a Mabel Chapman.
William Golby was born in Coventry ca.1850 and was first married to a Sarah Ann - checking marriages this appears to be a Sarah Ann Smith whom William Golby married Sept.1875 Leicester. He and Sarah Ann had a daughter Alice Beatrice born 1875, a son Samuel born and died in 1877 and a son William in 1884. Sarah Ann died in 1885 and in 1891 William is a widower with dau. Alice and son William - transcribed on ancestry as Golly.
So, he's a widower in 1891, marries Mabel in 1899 (whose surname is Chapman) and yet appears to have a daughter Nellie born 1895 known as Nellie Tolley Golby. So, is my earlier thought that Lois had her daughter Nellie Tolley illegitimately i.e. not the child of her husband George Henry, correct? Was William Golby, widower in 1895, really Nellie's father or was she 'adopted' and simply claimed as his daughter. At this point, it sounds like he was probably her natural father.
Your thought that it seemed strange that Lois stated in 1911 that she'd had 3 children, then altered it to 4 children and Nellie Tolley suddenly appears as daughter makes you wonder if - as husband George has left her - she decides to 'include' her daughter Nellie Tolley on the census form when in actual fact she is still living with William Golby and his 2nd wife Mabel and goes on to marry as Nellie Tolley Golby and dies as Nellie Tolley Thompson.
This explains why current family knew nothing about Nellie as she was brought up by William Golby and it seems Lois listed Nellie as Tolley, daughter, in 1911 maybe as an afterthought because she'd actually given birth to 4 children, not 3 (even if one wasn't her husbands).
So, clearly the birth certificate of Nellie Tolley birth June quarter 1895 Leicester, is vitally important to confirm if indeed Lois was the mother.
What a tangled web!
Annette
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Eeeeek! it is now looking more confusing than I thought. I knew George Henry Tolley was a puzzle as he disappeared after 1901 and through some valuable rootschat help I found him in the air force in 1919 and after than living in Birmingham. MIL knows he went to Birmingham but her grandma wouldn't speak of him and never forgave him for leaving her. MIL met him briefly shortly after the death of her mother Lois Maria. He came to their house in Court B, Northgate Street to offer his condolences to John Newton, Lois's husband but he never went to see his estranged wife Lois Mary and nobody ever mentioned him before or after that other than to tell MIL he'd left her grandma with three girls to raise and gone off to Birmingham. I'd assumed that Nellie was his daughter because of the name Tolley quite forgetting that Lois was also now a Tolley and I can't see her taking on George's illegitimate child if she was not the mother as Lois strikes me as having been a very forceful and opinionated woman. (in a good way.) As you say Annette, the birth certificate is of great importance so I will go into town later in the week and order that.
Gosh Willsy, thanks for all that information. Cyril was the younger Lois' son and we have no idea who the father was. She married John William Newton in 1911 and their first child Harry was born the following year. John accepted Cyril as one of his own children according to MIL and gave him a good upbringing and even Cyril's grandson, sadly now deceased himself, had no knowledge of his father's father. Neva Tolley's baptism at St Margarets has surprised me somewhat as she was born in Lancashire. The name Neva, as far as I know is relevant to the Tolley family from George Henry. It is a Russian name, something to do with a river I think and was handed down via Lois Maria to her daughter Neva and from her to her own daughter, my husband's cousin.
I am writing all this up to try and organise things in my mind whilst waiting for James Tolley's birth certificate to arrive. I have also looked into Thomas Tolley/Milnthorpe a little more and it is looking more probable that his mother is my John Tolley's wife as Thomas RADLEY MILLTHORPE married Lucy Baxter in Leicester in 1844 by 1851 they lived at Park Place, Horton Bradford. By 1861 they were at Frog Island Leicester. In 1871 they were living at 31 Henry Street, Leicester and by 1881 they were living in Fuller Street, Leicester. They were now listed as MILLINGTHORPE. in 1891 they remained at the same address and were listed as MILNTHORPE. Their children included James. George Sarah, Elizabeth and Thomas so several family names there.
I am now waiting somewhat impatiently for the birth certificate to arrive. :D
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Funny I was looking at that marriage last night, so have a bit
1918 24-Dec Leicester, St Mark
GOLBY Charles F
Nellie T THOMPSON
and chipping away with what I have
St Margaret 1844
Entry No. 50, OCT 13, 1844, after Banns
THOMAS RADLEY MILLTHORPE, full age, bach. ENGINE DRIVER, of PRINGLE St, s. of THOMAS MILLTHORPE, ENGINEER
LUCY BAXTER, full age, sp. of PRINGLE St, d. of THOMAS BAXTER, FWK
Wits: JOSEPH MOORE, ELIZABETH MOORE
Entry No. 81, NOV 10, 1844, after Banns
THOMAS UNDERWOOD, minor, bach. FWK, of PRINGLE St, s. of JOSEPH UNDERWOOD, FWK
ELLEN TOLLEY, minor, sp. of PRINGLE St, d. of JOHN TOLLEY, WORSTED SPINNER
Wits: GEORGE MILES, SARAH TOLLEY
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You'll be chasing the postman tomorrow!
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I am now impatiently awaiting birth certificates. :D
I ordered James' birth certificate from the GRO as it was cheaper and about as quick as having to make 2 journeys to Warwick so hoping that will be here next week and Nellie's, from Leicester, should be here around the same time.
I'm wondering now about Thomas (Radley) Millthorpe/Millinthorpe/Milnthorpe as he names his father so maybe he knew who his father was and gives their surnames as being the same so the question is did he give his grandfather's name in place of his father's or was his father a Radley? I doubt there is an answer to that question as it certainly doesn't appear on the original christening certificate details.
I will update this thread when I get the birth certificates, thanks again for all the help. :)
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I have Nellie's certificate!
She is registered as the daughter of Lois Mary Tolley and...George Henry Tolley. Born in 13th May 1895 at 113 Denman Stredet.
So, do we think that this rules out Nellie Tolley Golby or could it be that George had been away fighting or working and refused to accept that Nellie was his daughter and somehow it was decided that William Golby was Nellie's father so she was sent to live with him?
I suppose it is all conjecture unless we can find more information. It could be part of the explanation of why Lois never forgave her husband when he left although if it bothered him so much I can't help wondering why he stayed long enough for Lois to have another daughter in 1903.
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I have never actually viewed the school records but wonder if that woud help since it had Golby in brackets ???
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It may help. Where are the school records accessed?
It certainly sounds like Nellie GOLBY, Nelley TOLLEY GOLBY and Nellie TOLLEY may well be the same person.
Further research has shown Nellie GOLBY to be living with her parents in 1901 and 1911 at 113, DENMAN STREET, Leicester which is exactly the address that Nellie TOLLEY was born at. This sounds too good to be a coincidence but, of course, it just could be and I could be just clutching at straws.
I've tracked her down on a family tree and her date of birth is listed as the same so I've contacted the tree owner to ask if she has any further information as they seem to know the exact birth date.
I'm totally ??? at the moment as MIL definitely doesn't know anything about Nellie, she wasn't even aware of her existence.
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The records are on microfiche at the Leicester Records Office
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Yes! You guys are totally amazing.
James Tolley's birth certificate arrived this morning. He was born on 3rd August 1841 in Warwick St Mary to John Tolley and Elizabeth MILNTHORPE. So I now have the Tolley family back to Doncaster in the 1790s with John Tolley and Elizabeth Milnthorpe.
I have some information about Elizabeth's parentage and I have James Tolley and Jane Major listed as John's parents so the next step is to try and trace them back to their parents.
I still have to trace George Henry in 1891, 1901 and 1911 but I do now know that on 26th April 1915 he was summoned by his wife for assault due to drunkenness. It had apparently become usual for George Henry to be drunk at the weekends and after promising to give up the drink he was placed under the care of a Mr Goodman for a period of 12 months and ordered to pay the costs so it would appear that he was still in Leicester in 1915-1916.
I've tried all variants of his name on my An'try account but there is nothing coming up for him so I need to try to search the census returns for the City to try and track him down. I don't know if there is anywhere i can do that now though as An'try have changed the way they display their records making it impossible for me to hop through areas of the city like I used to be able to.
Thank you all so much for the help with this. :)