RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: Cell on Thursday 28 April 16 00:46 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I'm a bit confused (an understatement ;D)and would like some ideas, perhaps I'm missing something obvious:
In 1944 my grandmother's brother Thomas Purdy was injured in Normandy and hospitalised in England and then in Belfast when he was 25. There is a big report in the Larne Observer about his exploits 31st aug, accompanied by a photo of him and address, and mother's name ( 100% definitely him, I know what he looked like as I have photos of him and all the other details like address is right too).
My problem is that the report mentions a nephew of his and that the nephew died in action. Nephew is Wilnor Crawford who lived in Moat street (see below at attached snip). Wilnor Crawford died 14/6/1944 (I've traced his death, and he is also mentioned in Memorial in the papers) , father is John and mother Elizabeth.
So I initially guessed Elizabeth Crawford is Thomas's and my grandmother's eldest sister - Thomas and my grandmother does have an older sister Elizabeth (Lizzie) but she was born in 1903 ( she is the only one of the siblings I haven't managed to find out what happened to her- I have a photo of her, but nothing else, besides her birth and her in the censuses with her parents and siblings)
The problem is Elizabeth Crawford dies in 1938 ( I have the death cert and also news paper reports of her husband and children remembering their mother "in Memorial)) - BUT her death cert, states her age as 59 .. argh!! (her son Robert was present at death, and she died in hospital)
which would make her born in 1879 - if this is her true age that is on her death cert and not an error with her age, Elizabeth Crawford can not be Thomas's sister ( Thomas Purdy mother Mary Elizabeth McNeill was born in 1876 and only married in 1899, his father was a bachelor on marriage, so no first marriage ,although he is old enough to have a first - he was born in 1853).
Elizabeth and John Crawford's son Wilnor Crawford was born in 1923, so I can't get his birth cert online to see what his mother', Elizabeth's maiden name is. I've got a few siblings for Wilnor, but no birth dates ( siblings names came from various newspaper reports of his family remembering Wilmot)
(Thomas Purdy was born in 1919)
The only things that I can think of is that maybe it could be his great Nephew, ie a 1st cousin once removed etc -which would make Elizabeth Crawford either a McNeill, or a White, ( doubt if it is a White, as Thomas's grandmother was an Elizabeth, I doubt if she had a sister also called Elizabeth too). I've rulled out Thomas's paternal side ( although perhaps I shouldn't) - I think I've just confused myself!
I've tried looking for a marriage between Purdy and Crawford, there doesn't seem to be one.
I've attached a small snippet ( just the relevant bit and not the whole article - due to copyright rules )
Can anyone suggest how to go about getting Wilnor Crawford's mother ( Elizabeth Crawford), maiden name , without applying to GRONI for it to be sent by snail name and paying the full wack for the full certified cert of Wilmot's birth in 1923, which I'm trying to avoid doing - which even then may be a waste of money if Elizabeth is not his mother( but step mother)
Or can anyone find a marriage for John Crawford and an Elizabeth "something" that could be them ( John was a bricklayer - according to Elizabeth's death)
Thanks' for reading and any help :)
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In Emerald Ancestors free search you can search marriages with a name and it will show year, district and first name(s) of spouse, so I had a look (GRONI search results in brackets).
John Crawford (1902 Ballymena) Elizabeth [28 Oct., Elizabeth Wasson]
John Crawford (1909 Ballymena) Elizabeth Crawford [14 Dec.1909]
John Crawford (1915 Larne) Elsie [18 Sept., Elsie Eddie]
John Crawford (1917 Ballymena) Elizabeth [20 Oct., Lizzie Nixon]
What were the names of Wilnor's siblings that you've found so far?
This article lists a brother Jack-
www.ballymenatimes.com/news/your-community/nostalgia/crawford-wilnor-ww2-virtual-memorial-1-1905823
This excerpt (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=K5hICgAAQBAJ&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=wilnor+crawford&source=bl&ots=SBEjF8zrWd&sig=DeSJb36bELfU4X-lKCskdg9pVVA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiPyJGc-rDMAhUKL8AKHbyOBs0Q6AEILzAE#v=onepage&q=wilnor%20crawford&f=false) says son of John & late Elizabeth
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This article lists a brother Jack-
www.ballymenatimes.com/news/your-community/nostalgia/crawford-wilnor-ww2-virtual-memorial-1-1905823
This excerpt (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=K5hICgAAQBAJ&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=wilnor+crawford&source=bl&ots=SBEjF8zrWd&sig=DeSJb36bELfU4X-lKCskdg9pVVA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiPyJGc-rDMAhUKL8AKHbyOBs0Q6AEILzAE#v=onepage&q=wilnor%20crawford&f=false) says son of John & late Elizabeth
aghadowey's attachment also states that "his father served with the Royal Engieers in the last war" his army record, if available, may state more about him and his family
The Ballymena Observer has a death notice in 1944 which does not mention his mother, she perhaps predeceased him; it does state brothers, sisters, brothers-in-law, sisters-in-law, nephews and nieces which implies he may have been a younger member of a family of at least five.
In the following years there are In Memoriam adverts that are from his father and sister May and her family at 59 Moat Road as; his sister Lizzie and her family; and his cousin Sgt Wm McClean of 57 Moat Road which may be a way of searching - none mention a mother
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57 Moat Rd., Ballymena:
McCart Robert John of 57 Moat Road Ballymena county Antrim yarn dresser died 26 June 1936 Administration Belfast 14 August to Sarah McCart the widow. Effects £202 4s. 9d.
26 March 1920 - Ballymena Observer: HOUSE PROPERTY- IN HARRYVILLE, BALLYMENA To Sold Public Auction, the Premises, on THURSDAY, the 8th day APRIL, 1920, at the hour 12 o’clock noon, Those two very desirable Dwelling-house, Nos. 57 and 59, MOAT ROAD, Harryville, Ballymena, and now occupied Mrs. Moore and Mrs. M'llwaine, as weekly...
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Had a eureka moment!
Son George was shown as in Canada on the newspaper in the In Memoriam for Elizbeth Jane
He traveled to Canada on the Andania in April/May 1929 to Ontario; father shown as John Crawford 1 Moat Terrace Ballymena. He was shown as 18 which implied he was born 1910/11.
This ties with this birth - LINK (http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/95fda60442610) which shows the Mother's maiden name as DEVELIN
and this ties with this family on the 1911 census with all the right names and in the right area - LINK (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Ballymena_No__3_Urban/Waring_Street/118483/)
LINK to birth records of seven children with Mother DEVLIN (http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-perform-search.jsp?namefm=&namel=crawford&ddBfrom=&mmBfrom=&yyBfrom=1892&ddBto=&mmBto=&yyBto=1926&locationB=&keywordb=devlin&ddMfrom=&mmMfrom=&yyMfrom=&ddMto=&mmMto=&yyMto=&locationM=&keywordm=&ddDfrom=&mmDfrom=&yyDfrom=&ddDto=&mmDto=&yyDto=&locationD=&keywordd=&submit=Search)
Marriage - LINK (http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/95db446952413)
John CRAWFORD (F) Robert; full age; a Mason
married
Elizabeth Jane DEVLIN (F) Hugh; aged 18
on May 28 1898 in Ballymena, Co. Antrim
Witnesses Hugh O'Neill and Isabella Crawford
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Hi,
Thank you so much for your above help, aghadowey and myluck!
Elizabeth was indeed dead when her son was killed.
Elizabeth's death cert states that she died on the 27th October 1938 ,age 59, at Victoria hospital , her address on the cert is 59 Moat st Ballymena, wife of John Crawford a bricklayer, son Robert was present at death ( Robert's address on the cert is 65 Glenwood st). carcinoma of Vulva 9 months. (poor woman!)
I didn't post the siblings names just on the off chance that some may be alive, never can tell ( my hubby's great aunt is still alive and kicking and she was born in 1917!). The siblings names and relatives are mentioned in the Memoriam s for her and also her son in the papers.
Myluck, thank you! That Devlin surname name sounds so very familiar to me somehow.
They seem like a big family, When I was searching the papers yesterday on Moat Road there are quite a lot of stories on the surname crawfords in the street .The family also seemed to move houses quite a lot along that road
I'm now also wondering if my G Uncle Tommy (Thomas Purdy) was possibly married at the time in 1944 , maybe to a Crawford - I didn't think he got married until after the war, it was the impression that I was given by my mum ( I know that he was definitely married by 1962 though, by newspaper reports of him in 62 and his wife Margaret ), plus I would think the papers in 1944 would have mentioned his wife if married and not his mother when he was found alive and injured . Tommy and his wife did not have any children(they couldn't have any) .Tommy later died of heart attack before I was born .If married to a Crawford lass ,it would of course also make Wilnor his nephew. Although I do recall seeing a framed photo on my grandmother's dresser many years ago of Tommy and his wife's wedding day and he was dressed in army uniform, so goodness knows when it was taken, and what even happened to the photo - I suppose it's long since lost( I just have a photo of him with his mum in army uniform, which I presume it be when he first joined up, or getting posted overseas)
Yes , I noticed his father was in the Royal Engineers by the reports in the papers. I did search for some time on ancestry to see if any of their records were on there, but no luck so far. Maybe the father's records haven't survived, or perhaps his are also too recent for them to be released ( I'll have to sign up to findmypast on the next 1 pound offer to see if there is anything on there , I hold a world sub to ancestry).
I'm actually amazed by being a large family ( so obviously there will be many descendants to this family) that I haven't come across anyone researching them, and no-body with an uncle Wilnor in their tree.. hence finding a link to my family.
Fascinating, I'm going to have buy the book I've been meaning to get , but I keep putting off as it's not cheap ( The Rifles Are There). I've been meaning to buy it for ages as my grandfather served with them for many years and wanted to read up on some of their involvements . My grandfather's cousin also got blown up in front of him in WW11 over in Normandy-( which he told me about) but I don't know the name of this cousin he spoke of, unless it was my gran's (Purdy) cousin and my grandfather called him his cousin too (which wouldn't be too far off the truth - as my gran and granddad were related , 2nd cousins - I've now really confused myself !) ,another mystery ,wish he was still alive to tell me who this cousin of his was. I didn't know exactly where my gran's brother Tommy served until I found the article of him in 44, and now I have poor Wilnor his "nephew", however he is linked. That Devlin name is really playing on my mind now, it is very familiar to me.. I don't know where I've seen it, or heard it
Thanks' again
Kind Regards :)
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Hello.
This is regarding your great uncle Wilnor Crawford.
I am his niece. I grew up at 59 Moat rd. Ballymena.
My grandmother was Elizabeth jane Crawford. Who adopted Wilnor .
I would like to contact you privately to connect. I am not sure how this site works.
my brother came across this chat and found it very interesting that this was about our family.
- Joan
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Welcome to the site JoanP
Once you have made two posts you can send a Private Message (PM)
If you reply to this message and then reply again it will be activated
Click on the icon under the person's details that looks like a sheet of paper to send a message
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Hello.
This is regarding your great uncle Wilnor Crawford.
I am his niece. I grew up at 59 Moat rd. Ballymena.
My grandmother was Elizabeth jane Crawford. Who adopted Wilnor .
I would like to contact you privately to connect. I am not sure how this site works.
my brother came across this chat and found it very interesting that this was about our family.
- Joan
Hi Joan,
Very nice to hear from you, and welcome to Rootschat
If you post 1 more, you can use the private message function.
My great uncle is Tommy (Thomas) Purdy, not Wilnor Crawford. Thomas is my grandmother's brother .The newspaper article states that Wilnor is Thomas Purdy's nephew. If the newspaper is correct, it would make Wilnor my mother's first cousin ( and my first cousin once removed)
If Thomas Purdy was Wilnor's uncle as stated in the newspaper article ( Thomas was only 4 years older than Wilnor)) it seems to me that one of Thomas Purdy's older sisters may be Wilnor's mother.
Thomas's older sisters are ;
Mary Purdy (born 1901) (married an Alexander in 1919)
Elizabeth Purdy ( born1903)
Jane Purdy ( born 1905) (married a McFaul in 1926)
Sarah Purdy (born 1910)
then three more sisters , who are too young to have had a child born in 1923 , two were born in 1912 (twins), and my grandmother who was born in 1916 .
Thomas was the youngest of the siblings, he was born in 1919. He had just one brother, John, who was the eldest of the siblings ( born in 1900)
Is Wilnor's birth surname Purdy?
Kind Regards :)
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Hi Cell
I know we share some relatives but cannot remember if Purdy is one of them. One of my Gawn family "cousins" Sheila Holland (died 2007) married David Stanley Purdy who died 21 Mar 2012. Is this the same Purdy family as yours?
Cheers
Linda
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Hi Linda,
I don't have a known David Stanley Purdy in my tree.
My Purdy line produced mostly females who lost the name on marriage.
My grandmother (who was a purdy)and my g aunts only had one brother who went on to have children ( their other brother Thomas had no children, he and his wife couldn't have any)
My grandmother's older brother who went on to have children is John purdy b 1900 in Loughconnelley (died 1962 in Broughshane)
He had quite a few children.I haven't got a David amongst them (but I don't know all of the names .I won't name the ones I do have just in case some of them are alive)
My grandmother's and John's father (also a John, born 1853 died 1920 was the only boy, he had one sister)
His father was a Thomas Purdy born 1793, died 1869. I don't have any known siblings for Thomas .His father was a William (no known abt birth year, and no known siblings)
I am stumped on the shared relatives (?)
Kind regards:)
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Hi Cell,
Sorry I have not got back to you earlier but thank you for your reply. I could not find if I had sent you any previous messages so maybe it is just that I have been interested by many of your posts.
David Stanley Purdy's wife Sheila was the granddaughter of my gt grandmother's brother James Henry Gawn. Which made Sheila a 2nd cousin once removed. We had a letter from her when her mother Mae Holland (Mary Gawn) died. My father had been in contact with Mae Holland in the 1980s.
I only know the names of their children but not of any of David Stanley's family. I have his 2012 funeral notice: Funeral Service in Five Mile Hill Gospel Hall, Mount Norris, tomorrow (Friday) at 11.00 a.m. Interment afterwards in Clandeboye Cemetery, Bangor, arriving 2.45 p.m.
Cheers
Linda
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Hello,
I came across your message a few days ago. I was with my mother and my aunt. We are Crawfords from the Moat Road Ballymena. Johnny was my grandfather's uncle. My grandfather's father was George Crawford. Johnny's wife was Lizzie Devlin and Wilnor was adopted. Wiknor died in the 2nd World War and his name is read out every year at the remembrance service in 1st Ballymena Presbyterian Church (we are still members of that church) . My grandpaernts had a photo of Wilnor in his uniform but sadly those photos were all lost in a house fire about 10 years ago. The Crawfords were all tradesmen men ( the best ....so they say!) and built the Braidwater Mill chimney which is one of the 7 towers of Ballymena.
My aunt is really good at remembrting family stories and history....so I'm going to get her to write down all she knows because when she dies all that info will go with her!
I hope this helps in some way.
Regards
Colleen :)
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Hello,
I came across your message a few days ago. I was with my mother and my aunt. We are Crawfords from the Moat Road Ballymena. Johnny was my grandfather's uncle. My grandfather's father was George Crawford. Johnny's wife was Lizzie Devlin and Wilnor was adopted. Wiknor died in the 2nd World War and his name is read out every year at the remembrance service in 1st Ballymena Presbyterian Church (we are still members of that church) . My grandparents had a photo of Wilnor in his uniform but sadly those photos were all lost in a house fire about 10 years ago. The Crawfords were all tradesmen men ( the best ....so they say!) and built the Braidwater Mill chimney which is one of the 7 towers of Ballymena.
My aunt is really good at remembrting family stories and history....so I'm going to get her to write down all she knows because when she dies all that info will go with her!
I hope this helps in some way.
Regards
Colleen :)
Hi Colleen
Thank you so much for the above reply :)
I still don't understand it at all ( how my great uncle Thomas Purdy ,my grandmothers ' brother was his uncle
My uncle Tommy ( great to me, - what is the connection ?
Who is Wilnor's birth mother?
How is Tommy his uncle?
What is the connection between the families for Tommy Purdy to call him his nephew?
You said Johnny was your grandfather's uncle..John Who?
So many questions , I hope I haven't bombarded you with too many!
Kind Regards :)
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Hi
I'm not sure about the Purdy connection but I will ask my aunt and let you know if she can give you any info to help you move forward with that.
John Crawford AKA Johnny... married Elizabeth Devlin...she was known as Lizzie and for some reason they adopted Wilnor Crawford. Who his birth mother was and what his birth name was I don't know ...yet!
Try contacting the church, First Ballymena Presbyterian Church. It is the oldest church in Ballymena and is celebrating it's 350 year anniversary. They have old records and may be of some help. I have a copy of the grave papers of our family grave which is in the Old Church Yard Ballymena and I will have a look at it and see if there are Purdy's on it.
Could I please ask you if you contacted JoanP by private message to contact her again and ask her to contact me. My aunt said she remembered her family and they emigrated to Canada or America when she was at primary school. It would be good to contact her about her family.
Thank you.
Colleen
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Hi
I'm not sure about the Purdy connection but I will ask my aunt and let you know if she can give you any info to help you move forward with that.
John Crawford AKA Johnny... married Elizabeth Devlin...she was known as Lizzie and for some reason they adopted Wilnor Crawford. Who his birth mother was and what his birth name was I don't know ...yet!
Try contacting the church, First Ballymena Presbyterian Church. It is the oldest church in Ballymena and is celebrating it's 350 year anniversary. They have old records and may be of some help. I have a copy of the grave papers of our family grave which is in the Old Church Yard Ballymena and I will have a look at it and see if there are Purdy's on it.
Could I please ask you if you contacted JoanP by private message to contact her again and ask her to contact me. My aunt said she remembered her family and they emigrated to Canada or America when she was at primary school. It would be good to contact her about her family.
Thank you.
Colleen
Hi Colleen
Thank's for the reply and so sorry for not responding earlier ( I've only just logged in and read your reply.. l1ong summer holidays here in Aus ).
Regarding JoanP, I have had no contact what so ever, she just made that one public message above and disappeared, which is such a pity as it is a such a mystery why my g uncle Thomas Purdy is calling Wilnor his nephew.
Kind regards :)
Ps I'll send you more details in a private message regarding my family in a private message , it's pretty late here at the moment and run off my feet at the moment so I won't do it tonight, ( unless you want a garbled message ;D )
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Hello again,
No worries...just reply when you get a bit of time to yourself.
Do check out the church records...
www.firstballymena.org
Click on church records and it will then ask you to send your request by email.
All church records have been update recently and a team of people look after them and someone will reply to you.
In the meantime I'll do my best to find out any info I can for you.
My aunt and I are going to do a family tree too so we will be looking at these records too.As a child I remember hearing stories of Wilnor and "The Crawfords." Aparantely they were all great tradesmen and as i told you earlier they were involved in the building of the Braidwater Mill chimney and my aunt said the Town Hall too.
I have just had a quick look at our family grave papers and i can see Isabella and Hugh O'Neill have been buried in that grave. ..they were the witnesses at John and Lizzy Crawford's wedding. Must try to find out where John n Lizzie are buried. But Wilnor was definately a member of that church when they still read out his name each year in Remembrance Sunday.
Anyway I'm just back home from a lovely but tiring weekend in London so my concentration not great. Will be in touch. :)
Colleen
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Info to further checking, albeit you may already have same:
The Army Roll of Honour 1939-1945 has Wilnor's birthplace recorded as Fermanagh.
(per transcript on FindMyPast)
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Dear colleenMc and JoanP,
I don't know if you're still around.
Especially JoanP ( who just made the one post)
Do either of you know when your family or Wilnor celebrated his birthday ( ie month or day) ? I assume he had a celebrated birthday, or a very close date to his real birth, if they didn't know the exact date he was born.
I have finally found what I believe is very likely to be Wilnor's birth!
It has taken me these many years to find it, I have never given up . I also had to wait, and wait for this birth , privacy laws , coupled with other things and a story that I was told many years ago by my mother that one of the sisters ( her aunts) gave away a boy child . ( I didn't know which one of my grandmother's
eldest sisters that it was. I also never mentioned this as I didn't want to muddy the factual waters by passed down oral history about this birth of one of the sisters.)
The birth date of my great Aunt's illegitimate child exactly fits both Wilnor's reported death age on the army rolls and his reported death announcement in the local papers, both have two different death ages for Wilnor 21 and 22 years old ,which of course can be confusing!- But it totally makes sense now - if what I am holding is Wilnor's birth cert , which my gut and many combined factors is saying it is him.
.
The month and day that my great Aunt's son was born ,he would have been still 21 years of age on that 14th June 1944 , and he would have just turned 22 when it was reported in local press back home just a few weeks later . The two reported ages are correct at the time of recording it if Wilnor is indeed my great Aunt's birth son.
It's trying to 100% prove that the illegitimate birth of the baby boy that my gran's sister gave birth to and gave up is Wilnor, which is the difficult thing , as it being long before formal adoption law years.
Everything is pointing that way.
The baby boy's Christian name wasn't Wilnor on birth of course , my great grandmother ( the grandmother of the child) reported the child's birth, and going by his full birth names on the cert, I suspect had a great hand in naming the birth name. The child is not a known child we have in the family today - this child disappears from the radar. No father listed on the birth of course, as to be expected.
My gran's sister did not marry for years after the birth of her illegitimate son , (she married in later life, and was a spinster ) and had no children with her husband ( an English soldier who was stationed in Ireland)She moved away from Ireland to England after her marriage to her husband .
Her birth son isn't mentioned in her will , so either her son did not outlive his mother, or this is the sister that gave up her child, or both.( checked deaths too and he did not die as a baby or a child under his birth name )
Very Kind regards
Ps.would you know if Wilnor was around 7 years old when your family adopted him ? I have this figure of 7 in my memories ( and I really don't know if that is 7 years or 7 months old ) - the sisters have two illegitimate births who weren't raised by them( two of the sisters of my gran and my great uncle Tom ) - sometimes the oral stories from my mother and grandmother collide into each other in my memories . But I believe one of these two children was 7 when their birth mother left them, but don't know which one of the two children this was( the other child grew up with the the birth
mother's family , with the child's grandmother and my own grandmother) . That child was a female , which I know what happened to her. She is ( was) one of my godparents ( she died when I was toddler)
I am just wondering if your Wilnor was around 7 years old when your family adopted him ( it would also make sense why my great uncle Tommy in the article ,knew him to be his nephew ).
PPs sorry for this long message, I keep on adding more to it.
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H
My grandpaernts had a photo of Wilnor in his uniform but sadly those photos were all lost in a house fire about 10 years ago.
Regards
Colleen :)
Hi Colleen,
All is not lost :)
There is a photo of Wilnor in the Ballymena papers at The British newspapers archive website. It may be just like the one your grandparents had and lost in the fire (?).
Search on " John Crawford 59 Moat street" it will bring the article up , Friday 07 July 1944 Ballymena Weekly Telegraph .
Newspaper archives are forever adding more to their databases. This article wasn't on the British newspaper archive site a few years ago when this whole thread was written, and still not on the Irish Newspaper Archives site that I can find .
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results?basicsearch=john%20crawford%2059%20moat%20road&retrievecountrycounts=false
This is the snipping of the same article from the paper on this website below , so no need to pay to download the article with the picture .
https://snake43.webs.com/ww2-panel-2
Very kind regards