RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: worth on Thursday 05 May 16 17:26 BST (UK)
-
Hi all
Can someone help me find this family in 1851, I'm having no look at all:
Thomas Heatlie aged about 30 born 1819 Midlothian (not 100% sure) Head
Elizabeth Heatlie m/s Ferguson aged 29 born 1821 Midlothian Sct Wife
Married 1841 August 1 New Monkland, Lanarkshire
They had at least 5 children before 1851 but only the first 3 were actually registered as Thomas and Elizabeths children, so not sure if Thomas the father is still living in 1851, the children after 1851 all had his name on their marriage, death certificates but until I find them as a family in 1851 I don't know if they were his as they were not registered.
Children:
James Heatlie born 5 Jan 1842 Old Monkland Lanarkshire birth registered
John Ferguson Heatlie born 16 Jan 1845 Airdrie (New Monkland) birth registered
Thomas Heatlie born 17 Feb 1847 Bothwell birth registered
Elizabeth Heatlie born 1850 Lanarkshire birth NOT registered, but Thomas Heatlie is down as father on both marriage and death certs.
Robert Campbell Heatlie b 1851 Coatbridge, Lanarkshire birth NOT registered, Thomas Heatlie is down as father deaceased, on both marr and death records.
Elizabeth is widowed in 1861, her future husband is living with her as a lodger.
Any help finding them would be awesome and thanks in advance.
-
Hello worth,
Could this be the same family? Do you know Thomas' occupation?
1851. Eglenton Iron Works, Kilwinning, Ayrshire.
Thomas Kettley 30 b Dalkeith, Midlothian. Coal Miner.
Elisabeth " 29 b " "
James " 9 b Airdrie, Lanarkshire.
John " 5 b " "
Elisabeth " 18mons b " "
Hugh Martin 18 Lodger b Kilwinning.
Regards, Dod.
-
On Scotlands People, on the parish births, there is James HATELY, born 5th Jun 1842 at Airdrie, plus John Ferguson HATELY born 16 Feb 1845, and Thomas HEATLY born 2 May 1847 Bothwell. Parents are Thomas & Elizabeth, and these dates of birth (or possibly baptisms) agree with several public trees.
According to some public trees on An...try, Elizabeth Ferguson (b 1821) died at the Union Poorhouse, Linlithgow on 1 Jun 1885. ...Robert Campbell Heathlie was born (or baptised) 25 Nov 1851 at Dalry, Ayrshire.
Thomas Heattlie (the father, b 1819) married Elizabeth Ferguson at New Monkland in 1841, and I think a tree has Thomas's death in 1847 at Bothwell.
The census in the post immediately above looks very good. I think it is spot on.
-
Thankyou both for your help, the 1851 census find is the correct one, Thomas was a coalminer, no wonder I couldn't find them, I wasn't even looking in Ayeshire xx
-
They had at least 5 children before 1851 but only the first 3 were actually registered as Thomas and Elizabeths children, so not sure if Thomas the father is still living in 1851, the children after 1851 all had his name on their marriage, death certificates but until I find them as a family in 1851 I don't know if they were his as they were not registered.
Don't read anything into the absence of a birth or baptism record before 1855, which was the year when statutory civil registration of births, deaths and marriage began.
Before that, the only records were the various churches' registers of baptisms, banns and burials. Not every event was recorded, and not all the registers have survived.
If the marriage certificate says their parents were Thomas Heatlie (or some variant) and Elizabeth Ferguson, you are fairly safe to assume that to be the case.
-
Thanks Forfarian, Elizabeth Heatllie is a widow in 1861 (I checked the original just in case) at home in Lanarkshire with 3 of the children Elizabeth b. 1850, Robert born 1851 and Isabelle b.1854. Elizabeths future husband is also a lodger in her house in 1861. There is 1 child missing who was born in 1855 called Barbara Heatlie, Thomas and Elizabeths youngest child. I know she survived as she married in 1875 and died in 1942. Could someone please have a look and see if they can find her, she would be about 6/7 years old. Last request I promise xx
-
Worth, I can't see an 1855 birth for a Barbara. Struggle also finding her in 1861. There is this entry however in 1871 which I wondered if this was her:
Barbara Hately, 18 b. Airdrie, Lanarkshire
She is showing as an inmate at the Girls Reformatory School in Edinburgh.
Monica
-
Hi MonikaL
I have never found a birth record either, Barbara was Thomas and Elizabeths last child, I have her marriage and death though. It sounds like a good possiblility that you may have found her ill have a look at it now, and thanks x
-
If father Thomas died in 1854, likely she was born a little earlier (assuming he is the father and Elizabeth did not have a child after Thomas died?).
Although 1861 is a problem, 1871 would fit well. See from 1881 that she gives her birth place as New Monkland c. 1855 which fits well with an Airdrie birth place from 1871.
Monica
-
If she was 18 on the day of the 1871 census, she was born in 1852/3, not as late as 1855. Strange that she is apparently missing from the 1861 census. Have you checked the original of the 1861 census, just in case she was omitted by the transcriber?
-
Hi
Just looked at the original 1861 census and Barbara is definitely not there :'(.
Also I have done searches for Thomas Heatlies death between 1851 and 1854, and 1855 up to 1861 and his death is missing too. Thanks for all your help, another pair of eyes is always helpful and much appreciated xx
-
Oh dear. Could be an enumerator error, then. They do occur.
It looks as if he must have died between 1851 and 1854 then.
You said that Barbara was the youngest child, and that there was an Isabelle in the 1861 census. If Barbara was the youngest, and Isabelle was born in 1854, who was Isabelle? (Was she really born in 1854, or is that a DoB miscalculated by subtracting 7 from 1861?)
-
ForFarian, yes that is a possibility I suppose, I don't have anything on Isabelle except the 1861 census entry, but Ive just been looking at the 2 oldest children James Heatlie born in 1842 in Lanarkshire and John Ferguson Heatlie born in 1845 Lanarkshire and they are also missing from the 1861 census, done some searches but nothing matches that I can see.
-
Was Isabelle described as Elizabeth's daughter in 1861? What age does the census say she was?
Do you have marriage and/or death information for James and John?
-
From the transcript, thought it might help to add the 1861 census entry here:
Eliza Hittley 39 washer woman, b Midlothian
Eliza Hittley 11 b. Roshall, Lanarkshire
Robert Hittley 9 b. Roshall, Lanarkshire
Bella Hittley 7 b. Roshall, Lanarkshire
David Chambers 40 visitor labourer b. Ireland
No specific address given in Airdrie, New Monkland.
I suppose there is always the chance that Bella is Barbara was written up incorrectly?
Monica
-
A possible 1861 for John (?) son:
J Heatley 13 inmate, tailor b. Airdrie
Boys House of Refuge, Glasgow Barony
Monica
-
Possible for 1871 for two of the brothers:
James Hotelay 28 lodger shale miner b. new monkland airdrie
Robt Hotelay 19 lodger shale miner b. new monkland airdrie
Address: No 2? Bathgate
Monica
-
No wonder I couldn't find them in 1861 - Hittley wouldn't have occurred to me.
SP has Hattlay and Des Garrity's CD-ROM index has Hettley. Curiosity got the better of me and I looked at the original. See attached and make up your own mind what the surname is!
The address is 2 Shearer Street, Airdrie, by the way.
It is very clearly Bella, and definitely not Isabelle. However the simplest explanation is that she is in fact Barbara and there is an enumerator's error. Perhaps he made a mistake, or perhaps Elizabeth couldn't read and write and was unable to tell whether he had written the name down correctly.
If Bella is not Barbara misrecorded, it requires Barbara to have been born in an improbably short gap between the births of Robert and Bella, and an explanation of why Barbara was missing from both her family and the rest of the census in 1861.
-
You lot are great xxx, I have been stuggling with this family for ages, and with the variants in surnames I now know why.
MonicaL, yes you have the correct one, J Heatley was John Ferguson Heatlie their second son, he was also a tailor in 1871 as well so thanks for that. I'm starting to think that Bella was indeed Barbara as well, it wouldn't have even crossed my mind if it hadn't been mentioned on here but it makes sense. Can I have a few ideas why in 1861 John would have been in a boys house of refuge, and in 1871 Barbara his sister was in a girls reformatory school, was it a bad behaviour place or that simply Elizabeth their mother was poor and couldn't feed them all. Elizabeth died in 1885 in Linlithgow poor house as well.
-
Not sure how easy or practical this will be but you could consider looking for poor relief applications for Elizabeth and family in Lanarkshire. A place to start to the search for these would be the Mitchell Library in Glasgow.
See here for details www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,522720.0.html Parts 5 & 6 cover this area.
Monica :)
-
Thanks MonikaL, ill have a look x