RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: forcarolyn on Friday 06 May 16 22:32 BST (UK)
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Does anyone know if there is some way to find a family that moved between Australia and NZ in 1910-1911. I have tried all the usual searches on Family Search, NZ Papers Past and Passenger lists NZ but nothing so far. Relative was a NZ'er married a girl in Tasmania and then brought her back to NZ. Thank You
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Any mention of them on Trove?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/
Matthew
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Index to passenger lists to UK, NZ and foreign ports 1852-1923
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=42
I think these are from Victoria ... worth a try? Perhaps they travelled via Melbourne
regards,
Ros
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Thanks Matthew and Ros. I will look at these.
Carolyn
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What is the name of your girl?
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Hi Tracey,
Her name on the marriage certificate was Elizabeth Coil but wonder if the spelling should be 'Coyle', married Sam Green. thank you
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I do not know what outcome you are wanting here, but I suspect that passenger lists would show very little detail, beyond name (Mr and Mrs), ports of embarkation and disembarkation, and maybe nationality. If you are wanting to expand your research on the Tasmanian family there might be other (better) means.
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That is all I want. We are just trying to solve a family mystery. ie The date when they left Australia and when and where they arrived in Australia. Thanks
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I do not have information for you, but admit to being a bit muddled about your query ;D
Sam GREEN travelled to Tasmania specifically between 1910 and 1911.
He married in Tasmania to Elizabeth COYLE.
You have this certificate.
Within that year 1910 to 1911 they became a family
Does anyone know if there is some way to find a family that moved between Australia and NZ in 1910-1911.
But then you suggest they actually arrived together into Australia between 1910 and 1911
The date when they left Australia and when and where they arrived in Australia. Thanks
Have you had a good look through Tasmanian newspapers of the time, to see if there is a marriage announcement with information?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y
Sue
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Sam (Samuel) left NZ on his own prior to Oct 1910. Went to Australia. Met Elizabeth Coil (Coyle) and married October 1910. They then as a couple/family came back to NZ after the wedding. A child was born to them in 1911 here in NZ (there may have been a child born before they returned here). Trying to find their passenger list back to NZ after they married. We have the original marriage certificate. The spelling for Elizabeth is COIL but there are no COIL in Tasmania at this time or at anytime but there was the spelling COYLE. Their marriage is not listed online anywhere that we can find but the certificate proves the marriage.
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Can you please scan the marriage certificate and post it here. If that is not possible can you please list all the information on the certificate. You need to include all the details.
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Thanks for making it clearer.
Finding the shipping records may be a challenge as not all records for all voyages exist.
Sorry not to be more helpful.
Sue
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Hi there,
Travel between New Zealand and any of the states in Australia in the years immediately before WWI can be difficult to track, simply because it was movement between British colonies in the era before ordinary folk needed to carry any form of identification. Passports were not issued to ordinary folk in Britain until 1914. So, in the same way that a person could move between any of the states of Australia without needing to carry identity documents, so too could that person move between any of those states and New Zealand. We should also remember that the Australian constitution actually allowed for New Zealand to be one of the founding states, while Western Australia was the colony that was initially the most hesitant to be in the federation.
Both Papers Past and Trove are extremely useful in following passenger movements across the Tasman, but you need to remember that the info in the newspapers is based on verbal advice given to the shipping lines at time of boarding/purchasing passage. Mr and Mrs Abc + x children MAY be the extent of the shipping line's info at the time. And as others have mentioned, not all shipping lines provided copy of all their manifests to the newspapers (and not all newspapers found room to publish those lists).
http://www.justice.tas.gov.au/bdm/family_history "Please Note: The Tasmanian Registry does not have an online search facility to access birth, death and marriage records. "
Here's the link to Papers Past (NZ digitised papers)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast
and
Here's the link to Trove (Australian digitised papers)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/
Even when there are lists in the newspapers, you may find that your research will not 'join the dots'. I explain. I have family who were born NSW, and who moved back and forth to Auckland, NZ many times during the decade before WWI. I have the family's private papers, giving me all the details. But when I attempt to validate the trips, even knowing the date and name of the ship, it is not possible. Sometimes I read Mr and Mrs Abc and infant journey to NZ, but the return journey does NOT include the infant. So you need to be careful with the research and flexible with the interpretation.
Cheers, JM
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Thank you Sue. i appreciate the trouble people go to, reply with or without info.
JM............Thank you or your explanation. I have been doing family research for many years now and we have about 8,000 on our extended family tree but this unknown sibling of my g grandfather suddenly appeared in the form of a grandchild and so it has been interesting to put some dots together and make connections.
I have spent many hours on Papers Past over the years since this was brought online and love this resource. No luck so far. I have sent a short time on Trove over the past couple of weeks but will go back there and Family Search etc. from time to time.
I really appreciate your taking the time to reply and the WW1 explanation plus the lack of need for ID makes sense. So thank you again.
carolyn
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You are identifying the place of marriage as Australia. I might have expected you to be more specific.....the state, the town. Is it a marriage certificate that you have, or something like.......statutory declaration etc and just stating "Australia"?.
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I fail to understand why the OP couldn't at least give the correct state in Australia where the couple married. At least it now gives us a place to start searching for outgoing passengers now we know where they married.
Relative was a NZ'er married a girl in Tasmania and then brought her back to NZ
Marriage in South Australia
GREEN Sam 32 years Status Single Father Samuel GREEN
COIL Elizabeth Ann 16 years Status Single Father Daniel COIL
22 Oct 1910
Residence of W C Brooker, Croydon Hin S 245/233
S. The certificate contains information which may not be published such as:
· Groom or Brides father is deceased
· The Mothers name is stated
· The age is listed in years and months
· A subsequent divorce is listed
· Other unusual information is listed
Cando
Edit to add Symbol S explanation
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...... We have the original marriage certificate. The spelling for Elizabeth is COIL but there are no COIL in Tasmania at this time or at anytime but there was the spelling COYLE. Their marriage is not listed online anywhere that we can find but the certificate proves the marriage.
May I please ask what is the significance of Tasmania as it is not the state for that 1910 marriage ?
Cheers, JM
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And yes the father's name is not a match with the marriage registration however there are few COYLE births in South Australia and this is the only Joseph and no Daniel.
COYLE Elizabeth Ann
16 Mar 1895
Father Joseph COYLE Mother Cecelia (fmly) CLEMENTS (nee) WINTER
At Yatala PtA 561/339
And a half sister
CLEMENTS Cecelia
28 Jul 1890
Father William CLEMENTS Mother Cecelia WINTER
At Yatala PtA 462/132
Cando
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There doesn't appear to be a marriage between a Joseph COYLE and Cecelia CLEMENTS nee WINTERS in SA.
There is no evidence of a Daniel COYLE on the SA indexes.
Cando
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But there is on TROVE in 1881 in SA - establishes there was a young Daniel COYLE in the area
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197810789
Cando
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That is all I want. We are just trying to solve a family mystery. ie The date when they left Australia and when and where they arrived in Australia. Thanks
I very much doubt you will find any record of their travel to New Zealand unless you find their arrival in that country. They could have left from any port on the eastern seaboard.
From State Library of South Australia
Even if you have the basic details, you may still be unable to locate information since some passenger lists have not survived to present day. Over time, a number were lost or accidentally destroyed.
Passenger lists for ships travelling between the colonies are scarce as these records were not required by immigration and remained the property of the shipping companies. As ship travel declined, shipping companies either closed or amalgamated and their records were lost in the process.
Cando
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We have the original marriage certificate.
Who were the witnesses to the marriage and who gave consent for Elizabeth to marry?
Cando
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From my resources....
Birth of Elizabeth’s mother
WINTHER Cecilia
22 Nov 1867
Father Julius WINTHER Mother Sarah FLEMING
At Port Adelaide Ade 58/429
First marriage
CLEMENS William 28 years Status Single Father William CLEMENS
WINTHER Cecelia 18 years Status Single Father Julius WINTHER
3 Mar 1886
At the Registry Office, Adelaide Ade 146/812
Suicide of Cecelia’s father at Glanville
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article47100637
Death of Cecelia’s mother
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article29518427
Children registered to Wm and Cecelia
Wm Henry 22 Nov 1886 at Glanville PtA 385/71
Caroline 8 Jul 1888 at Yatala PtA 419/100
Cecilia 28 Jul 1890 at Yatala PtA 462/132
Florence May 25 Nov 1893 Yatala PtA 532/80
Wm’s death – so he couldn’t have fathered Florence born 1893
CLEMENTS William 32 years Status not recorded Relative not recorded
30 Jun 1890
Residence Islington Death Place Adelaide Ade H 187/17
Symbol H indicates he died in a hospital or place of care.
Buried 2 Jul 1890 at Cheltenham Cemetery with dau Caroline who died in 1894.
http://www.aca.sa.gov.au/Records
Second marriage
McKAY Alexander 35 years Status Single Father Kenneth McKAY
CLEMENT Cecelia 31 years Status Widow Father Julius WINTER
11 Mar 1898
At the residence of Mrs C Clement, Rosewater PtA 194/1016
There are children to this marriage and you can find them at
http://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html
Death
McKAY Cecelia 77 years Status Widow Relative Alexander McKAY [Deceased husband]
5 Jan 1944
Residence Prospect Death Place Prospect Ade 672/98
Death notice
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article48780343
Cecelia is buried with her son at Dudley Park Cemetery. A photo of their headstone is available on request from this website. Please include the name of cemetery, photo and file number in your request.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~deadsearch/dudleypark_mr.htm
Cando
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I have just been reading back through the posts here and my comments etc.
Firstly I should say that I should have waited until it wasn't a busy time for me to post and then I would have been a bit more structured in my initial comment and read through my replies before hitting post.
It's the first time I have put a question on Rootschat and wasn't expecting to have so much feedback. My initial post was confusing. I was just trying to find if anyone knew how to find a passenger list that showed Sam and Elizabeth arriving back into NZ or at least leaving Australia. I confused it further by saying in a later reply "arriving back in Australia".
I couldn't read the 'Croydon' part of the Marriage certificate and not being familiar with Australia I was looking at Queenstown, Tasmania as I knew that was where Elizabeth had lived. I have gone back to the Marriage certificate and see they were married in Hindmarsh, South Australia.
I was being cautious in what I wrote as I hadn't initially asked for permission to use Elizabeth's name and I want to respect some family information.
Elizabeth isn't the birth child of Daniel (Coil/Coyle). Nor will a birth certificate be found for her. No family member was at their wedding. It could be she ran away from her situation and I am not sure how she could have married without consent. My romantic imagination is that Samuel 'rescued' Elizabeth when he married her.
Thank you to those who have gone beyond what I imagined you would in order to assist my research and again my apologise for the confusion.
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Elizabeth isn't the birth child of Daniel (Coil/Coyle). Nor will a birth certificate be found for her.
The information has been transcribed from a resource which was compiled by SA Genealogy from the South Australian BDM registers. It would be interesting to see who was the informant on the certificate.
COYLE Elizabeth Ann
16 Mar 1895
Father Joseph COYLE Mother Cecelia (fmly) CLEMENTS (nee) WINTER
At Yatala PtA 561/339
Cando
I wonder who was the informant on this death certificate and what was the source of Elizabeth's birth date. There is no birth registration for an Elizabeth on 17 Mar 1896 in South Australia. Information on death certificates only as accurate as the knowledge of the informant.
Death in NZ
1978/36390
GREEN Elizabeth Ann Date of birth 17 Mar 1896 82 years
I was being cautious in what I wrote as I hadn't initially asked for permission to use Elizabeth's name and I want to respect some family information.
I've only posted information that is in the public domain. Perhaps you should express your concern to the compilers of the online public trees that I've just found which also include a photo of Elizabeth. Similar information to mine but I would suggest they have taken the data from the subscription only websites databases. I haven't.
I couldn't read the 'Croydon' part of the Marriage certificate and not being familiar with Australia I was looking at Queenstown, Tasmania as I knew that was where Elizabeth had lived.
Are you sure it was Queenstown, Tasmania. The suburb of Queenstown in South Australia a few kms north west of Croydon on Port Road in Adelaide. Rosewater where Elizabeth's mother's second marriage took place is the adjoining suburb to Queenstown. Suburbs are not large in Adelaide. I suggest you have a look on google maps.
You state Elizabeth was married in Hindmarsh...that is not correct she was married at the Residence of W T Brooker at Croydon. Hindmarsh is the Registration District which covers the suburb of Croydon and adjacent suburbs. The South Australian 1909 electoral roll has a Mr William BROOKER of Princes Street, Croydon. Occupation Grocer.
Cando
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We have the original marriage certificate.
Who were the witnesses to the marriage and who gave consent for Elizabeth to marry?
Cando
Hi there,
I seem to have missed the response to this excellent question. I can assure you that any person, in that era, under the age of 21 years would have needed an adult to provide consent, and the clergyman should have recorded those details on the record sent through to the Civil Registry Office. I can also assure you that quite often the witnesses to a marriage were family members, or extended family members, and perhaps the witnesses should be followed up.
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Marriage in South Australia
GREEN Sam 32 years Status Single Father Samuel GREEN
COIL Elizabeth Ann 16 years Status Single Father Daniel COIL
22 Oct 1910
Residence of W C Brooker, Croydon Hin S 245/233
Several of the RChatters who have replied on this thread are very experienced in helping with South Australian research and they are offering you quality information. I am NSW centric and I was of the understanding that you were referring to Tasmania.
Sometimes Mr Google is a help when looking at locations, so for example, entering Queenstown, Australia will find at least two locations "Queenstown" .... the one in Tasmania and the one in South Australia.
Cheers, JM
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The place of death for Elizabeth's mother's 2nd husband
McKAY Alexander Status not recorded 44 years Relative not recorded
17 Sep 1904
Residence Dry Creek Death Place Queenstown PtA 304/457
South Australian Electoral Roll
1909 Division Port Adelaide/Sub division Grand Juncion
McKAY Cecelia Yatala Plains Widow
I suggest you view a map of the area to see how close these suburbs are to each other.
The Mt Lyell Mining Co started searching for copper at Queenstown, Tasmania in 1892 and the Post Office opened in 1896 so I am wondering what a young girl would be doing living in this remote area of Tasmania in this era.
One needs to approach family history research with an open mind and seek validation of family stories.
Cando
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Residence of W C Brooker, Croydon
Pastor W C BROOKER was a minister of the Queenstown Church of Christ in 1916.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article212932687
Cando
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Carolyn I notice you are online as I post this. I will mention that I have spent a lot of time trawling through outgoing ships and passengers from Adelaide on TROVE....no GREEN's at all in that period. So many ships leaving Adelaide in 1910/1911 did not name the passengers.
Cando
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Thank you. I was in the process of posting a reply to earlier comments but got interrupted. Just saw your comment here re passenger lists...thanks for that. I will have to redo my other reply shortly as I have to complete some work that has just arrived before getting back to my passion.
Thanks again.
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Elizabeth's mother's headstone - it appears it has broken and been placed on the grave. Thanks to Kym from deadsearch for this photo. Wonderful free service to the genealogy community.
Cando
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Yes, it does seem to have some irregularity about that left hand edge.
Great service for that photo.
I feel sure that our OP will be be soon to continue and post the reply she mentioned yesterday.
Cheers, JM
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Thank you for all the information you have added to my query. Wook commitments and a chance to sort through your information and then a piece of additional informaton from the family member who is related to Elizabeth put this all into perspective for me.
The Elizabeth Ann Green (nee Coyle) listed on the NZ BDM is our Elizabeth. The birth date listed on her death certificate is one year and one day out from that listed on her birth certificate. I can understand why now.
William Charles Booker listed earlier by CANDO as W C Brooker was the officiating minister.
Stephen and Sarah Gill and John Benjamin Schofield (married to Sarah's sister Ada - nee Carpenter) were the witnesses. There does not appear to be any family relationship to Sam or Elizabeth but it looks like they may be work mates of Sam.
Thank you again and also thank you for the headstone photo.
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Thank you for your reply.
Are we to take it that you have accepted our research as accurate...well as it can be?
One comment....William Charles BROOKER the son of Wm BROOKER, was a furniture manufacturer of Rundle Street in Adelaide and he appeared to officiate at many marriages in private homes and other churches eg Baptist churches as well at attending to his own flock at Queenstown. He was on the electoral roll with address Port Road, Croydon. It is also possible that the witnesses were neighbours or friends of Wm C BROOKER.
Cando
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Yes, thank you. As you say, as much as it can be. I had found some of the same info but discounted it because things didn't add up and then my relative provided some additional information that made things fit together with our/your research. Obviously there are still some gaps/conflicts. Maybe we will never have all the answers. Just a year ago, some of these questions may have been answered but now that avenue has closed. Thank you all again.
Carolyn
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Yes, thank you. As you say, as much as it can be. I had found some of the same info but discounted it because things didn't add up and then my relative provided some additional information that made things fit together with our/your research. Obviously there are still some gaps/conflicts. Maybe we will never have all the answers. Just a year ago, some of these questions may have been answered but now that avenue has closed. Thank you all again.
Carolyn
No research can ever be stated to be correct unless primary documents are sighted and then we have people who tell lies not only to the registrars, ministers and family which make research difficult. I spend much time on rootschat attempting to help others validate their family history/stories.
Carolyn where are the gaps or conflicts?
I think we have a few chatters following this thread and they would be interested as I certainly am.
What part of the research had you discounted?
Elizabeth isn't the birth child of Daniel (Coil/Coyle). Nor will a birth certificate be found for her.
Her father was Joseph COYLE on the her birth registration. Perhaps she didn't know his given name when asked by the minister for her father's name. Have you accepted the birth registration for Elizabeth Ann COYLE as your ancestor? Just a yes or no will be OK.
I'm please your relative suddenly provided additional information otherwise I think you would have discounted much of our research.
I'm still wondering what the S Symbol on the marriage registration indicated.
S. The certificate contains information which may not be published such as:
· Groom or Brides father is deceased
· The Mothers name is stated
· The age is listed in years and months
· A subsequent divorce is listed
· Other unusual information is listed
Quite a lot of the information I posted came from my own resources.
Cando
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Hi there,
I am becoming confused. Using the quality research in the replies, I can join the dots from the birth in South Australia, the marriage in South Australia, through to the death in New Zealand for Elizabeth. I am confused as to where the conflicts are, as I don't see any significant ones along that line. Yes, there's differences in the spelling of her surname. However, that is not at all unusual.
If I were searching for an Elizabeth COIL in South Australia, I would not doubt a birth registered as Elizabeth daughter of Joseph COYLE, nor would I be concerned about a confusion between Daniel and Joseph, particularly if Elizabeth's dad may not have been around when she was growing up.
Perhaps in 1910 the Reverend did not ask her how to spell her surname, perhaps she had not been given the opportunity to check the parish register where the Reverend recorded it. Afterall, the Reverend would have interviewed the couple in the weeks before the ceremony. He would have been required to ask for proof that an adult, responsible for Elizabeth, was providing consent for her marriage. The index clearly notes that she was aged 16. Perhaps she was not a great speller herself.
The marriage laws, both church and civil, required her to be 21 years of age before she could give her own consent to her own marriage, unless she had been previously married, (and therefore became qualified to give her own consent, regardless of her age). If this was a marriage in New South Wales, then I would comment "NSW marriage act required the consent for a marriage where either or both were not yet 21 years of age. The clergy recorded this on the original parish register in the 'white space' near where the pre-printed words are "according to the rites of" and the clergy records the particulars of those rites, AND then should write down "Written consent for Elizabeth, a minor, was given to this marriage by ..................., (both given and surname), .............. of the bride (father/mother/guardian/ etc as in their relationship to the bride). Many clergy may have written "Consent for ...... rather than "Written consent for ....." But NSW Marriage Act required consent to be noted.
I do not know South Australia's Marriage Act at that time, but I am most surprised that it would seem that consent was not recorded on your copy of the marriage certificate. I am wondering if you are holding the ceremonial document presented to the bride at the time of the marriage, rather than the actual civil registration of the marriage. It is my understanding that South Australian BDM certificates hold scant information, so I am not suggesting you spend funds on ordering a new set of records. Simply put, I find it unusual that a marriage certificate for a 16 year old lass does not note who gave consent for her to marry.
Whether her father was Daniel or Joseph or Daniel Joseph or Joseph Daniel, or COIL or COYLE or other variations seems much less significant to me. You see, to me, COIL or COYLE are simply variations which are more likely due to the recorder's literacy levels rather than the Bride's literacy levels. The information was informant driven. In that era, the clergy were significant members of the community.
I am not sure where the 'gaps' are, except that like most of us, you would like to record the name of the ship that carried Elizabeth to New Zealand. I am very doubtful if you will achieve this goal. Within most of the family history groups based in Australia I am quite sure that none would expect to achieve that goal with complete certainty simply because New Zealand and each of the six colonies that federated in 1901 to form Australia were all still British Colonies, in an era before passports. The paperwork that the shipping companies did create often did not note the given names of their passengers, nor even the gender of any children. So, it is unlikely to find Elizabeth travelling as Mrs Elizabeth GREEN. Perhaps they were recorded as Mr and Mrs S GREEN and child/ren or Mr and Mrs GREEN + infant. Perhaps they purchased their tickets in the hour before the ship departed, when the clerks were perhaps at their own busiest time of the voyage. But basically, the requirement for paperwork with 'full details' was not a high priority for the shipping companies or for the governments of either NZ or any of the states of Australia. In 1910, they needed to know that the fares had been paid for, the passengers were on the correct deck for the fare paid. It was simply a short voyage between British colonies, with no foreign ports in between.
All speculation, but basically I am not spotting any gaps/conflicts, and I am one who has taken a lot of criticism over many years for being 'too strict' some would say that I am far far far too "pedantic".
Cheers, JM
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My apologise. When I said gaps/conflicts, I was talking about in my own thinking not in the information you have given. You have all filled in many gaps.
When I started this post this relationship was new to me and my first thought was to see if I could find the shipping records bringng them to NZ after the marriage. That as you say may be unlikely as the information just isn't there.
What I discounted, was not what you had found but my own first reaction when I found Elizabeth's birth register information prior to placing the initial query here re the shipping information.
The research information on here once again brought up this birth register and of course all the other information. I had to take time to look at all of this and then take questions back to my original source of this new relative. This person gave additional information that confirmed what I was reading here.
In my mind, and nothing to do with your finds, are the gaps - no birth or death register for either Daniel or Joseph. The misinformation on some of the registers, were they accidental, deliberate. i have other questions but there is noone left on this earth that can answer them.
I appreciate all that you have all contributed. Your expertise and experience. Thank you.
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I'm hoping that you will receive notification of my reply!
Sam and Elizabeth are my great grandparents. Their daughter Ethel was my Grandmother, her daughter Elizabeth is my mother.
I have plenty of information about Sam Green once he arrived in NZ, Mum recently found where he was buried. He died estranged from his family, and was buried in an unmarked grave in Bromley Cemetery CHCH, NZ.
I remember My great grandmother, even though she died when I was very young.
I found this post because I'm trying to find out information about my great grandmother (Elizabeth Coyle/Coil) especially her family. We know nothing about her life in Australia before she came to NZ. She would not talk about it at all. We think that is because her father must have been indigenous. Unless Cecila was, though there is no evidence of this so far. It might explain why Cecila never was married to Daniel/Joseph Coyle/Coil. There is a Joseph Coyle who fits the timeline who was imprisioned at Rottnest island, then moved to Moore river settlement. Though I can't make the connection to Yatala in SA. I'm so very interested in what you know about her father. I live in Australia now and desperately want to fill in the blanks, perhaps even travel to SA to search for answers.
I hope you find this post!
Rachel
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Hi Rachel, Just wonderng if you received my email reply?
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Just found it!! I've replied 😊
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Hi All,
Bit slow to start but my Husband and I are researching his family tree and Elizabeth Coil/ Coyle and Sam Green are his great Grandparents.
You have no idea how thrilled we were to find this thread as we were coming up with nothing much at all and really would like to know find out more from this side of his family tree.
We see there are a few people researching and looking for information and wondered if any of you could get in touch to help fill in the gaps for us.
Any help would be much appreciated
Thank you in advance :)
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Welcome to Rootschat.
Looks like you have some ancestral connections to be made here. ;D
Hopefully, those on this thread still have active email notifications that will let them know someone has posted here.
Jamjar