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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Iain... on Wednesday 11 May 16 15:47 BST (UK)
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Hi All...
During the Battle of Waterloo at Hougoumont, Brice McGregor was one of the most important heroes in my regiment the Scots Guards (3rd Regiment of Foot Guards)
Some info:
- 5ft 9in / Brown hair / Grey eyes / Fresh complexion / Labourer
- Stature and health..., very strong.
- Activities... Praised for assisting in the closing of the Hougoumont Farm gate alongside the Coldstream Guards. Shot a Cuirassier dead who attacked him and rode into the farm courtyard on the Frenchman's horse.
- Appointment... After 1821; Yeoman of the Guard.
- Died Suttley House, Whitehall, London on 3rd of December 1846.
Before his death, Brice was Master of the United Strength Freemasonry Lodge in London. 1822/23
The current secretary of the Lodge is helping out with the research.
In the meantime, we are trying to determine his rank before demob but we are unable to read the writing before the word ‘Sergeant.’ (below his signature)
I don’t want to provide hints.
Thanks in advance. Kind Regards..., Iain.
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Quarter Master.
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Quarter Master.
I agree.
sami
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To expand a little on what has been posted already, what is written immediately below the signature is:
Q. M. Serjeant
The hand appears to be McGregor's own, with general similarity in the formation of the letters and particularly in the formation of the M.
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Thank you all very much indeed..., your research is greatly appreciated.
I didn’t want to provide you with any clues in order not to influence the work.
In fact, this question originates from the following forum.
http://www.napoleonicwarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=2442&start=180
For those of you interested in the events at Waterloo-Hougoumont, John Franklin will have a new book out soon called ‘The Struggle for Hougoumont’ and to be published by Fonthill Media.
It will contain many new as yet unpublished letters following the battle and I’m sure some of the images will be of the original letters showing the styles of writing. (could be wrong there as I do not know the exact contents)
Once again, thank you for the confirmation.
Kind Regards..., Iain.
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In various accounts Sgt. McGregor is referred to as Bruce.
(my old regiment too)
James
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In various accounts Sgt. McGregor is referred to as Bruce.
(my old regiment too)
James
Wow James..., pleased to meet you. 1st or 2nd Battalion ?
Quite true ! As can be seen in that rather long post on the Napoleonic Wars Forum, our biggest expert with the 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards is John Franklin; and even he thought it to be Bruce. Thinking that the original papers were an error due to the accent.
But as you can see..., he signed his last paper using ‘Brice.’ (plus the Masonic broche shows what his family and friends knew him as)
NB: John’s new book has multiple entries thanks to the late General Sir Michael Gow, SG. These Edinburgh archives are now with Jimmy at RHQ.
I was present on quite a few his Chelsea parades with his son Roddy Gow.
Your Aye..., Iain.
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/o7dyzzs5ih8niq4/AAC6g4k932bIoFowIJ1RLTwFa
www.colandmacarthur.com
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1st Battalion Malay/Borneo, served with the legend P/M Angus McDonald et al, not a piper I might add.
Aye
James
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To further muddy the waters this is an extract from History of the Scots Guards page 21 Vol 2.
In assisting in covering the withdrawal of his men from the haystack Sgt A Fraser engaged Colonel Cubieres who commanded the Ist Light Regiment, pulled him from his horse and rode back on it into the courtyard in time to help Lt.Col. MacDonnell, who collected any men he could gather to deal with the French who had penetrated the courtyard, and to close the gate.
In the scrimmage which ensued Lt.Col. MacDonnell with Lt.Col Wyndham, Ensigns Hervey and Gooch, Sgt Graham and Corporal Graham two brothers all of the Coldstream, Sergeants Fraser, Brice, MacGregor and J.Alston and Private John Lister of the 3rd Guards succeeded in closing the gate by main force and barring it.
The gallant little party of Frenchmen under Legros who had got into the courtyard were killed to a man.
So the Scots Guards History indicates Brice and MacGegor were two people.
I must agree that on your snippet it clearly indicates Brice with the dotted i as opposed to Bruce.
Yours Aye James
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Thanks for that James..., very kind of you.
I think you’ll find that the book, like our SG website it’s full of errors and I intend to ask Jake Reid to change some of it as soon as John’s book is on the market.
There were only two men by the haystack (Clay and Gann) so that first line has certainly been ‘spiced up.’
John’s book will contain a list of all the combatants (not just the officers as is often the case) from each of the 3 Light Companies.
For those here on RootsChat, that will make it much easier to research their ancestors.
As for the coma after Brice, you can be sure that that’s just an error.
Also..., lol, between you and me, I believe Legros is in for the ‘chop’!
That will upset the applecart for many historians and RIP artists.
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James, if by any chance you know of an oil painting or sketch of the chapel, where the chapel looks as if it has been badly orientated in relation to the traditional views from the north gate..., I would absolutely love a copy.
As you know, the western wall has a small door which gave onto the kitchen garden. (where Cubières was pulled from his horse and supposedly, where the French Drummer Boy entered and lived to tell the tale) To the right of that door is a very thin wall with no supporting barn or shed on the inside.
I doubt if that wall ever had a fourth gate (which seems illogical) but the wall was constantly being pounded by large shot. If it had collapsed, after-battle artists would have painted the chapel ‘facing a different direction.’
Many paintings of the north gate and chapel have the gate damaged by large and small shot..., but there was no enemy to the north !
Thanks for your help.
Kind Regards..., Iain.
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Hi – I’m new to Rootschat having been enticed here via Iain’s posts about Brice McGregor on Napoleonicwarsforum.com. My post is not about handwriting, but does, I hope, fit the discussion about Brice that has developed here.
I own the Georgian mourning brooch referred to by Iain which must have been made for a female family member shortly after Brice McGregor’s death in November1846 (he was buried on December 3rd) and I thought Rootschat members might be interested in seeing the attached photo. The brooch is not in very good condition, but it looks more handsome in real life than it does in the picture – a bit like me really!
Iain, as a jeweller by trade, has very kindly given his assessment of the brooch’s construction on the Napoleonic wars forum. It incorporates the engraving from a silver item presented to Brice by the brethren of his masonic lodge, the “Lodge of United Strength”, in the 1820s.Some of the engraved lettering, including the last digit of the presentation year, is obscured by the brooch’s jewelled surround but, essentially, it reads:
"Presented by the Members of the Lodge of United Strength, to Br. Brice McGregor, P.M. & T, as a Tribute of Gratitude, and a Memorial of Men, April 4, A.D. 182?"
Brice was admitted as a joining member of that lodge in May, 1816 and remained a member until his death 30 years later. He joined the lodge along with three of his colleagues who were also all serjeants in the 3rd Guards of Foot; namely Thomas Goddard, William McRobert and the charmingly named Joseph Plumtree. All four men had been initiated into Freemasonry a month earlier in ‘Lodge 895’ which was an ambulatory military lodge for the 71st Highland Light Infantry warranted by the Grand Lodge of Freemasons of Ireland.
I’m hoping to find an explanation as to how/why men of the 3rd Guards of Foot were allowed into the 71st HLI’s lodge as I understand that the initiation of men from other regiments was a breach of the Irish masonic rules of the day for military lodges and could have resulted in lodge 895 being fined or closed down. It would be great if any forum members could help on this point.
Because Brice was one of the known heroes of the well-known Hougoumont incident in the Battle of Waterloo, there have been lots of references to him over the last 200 years and I’ve seen his name recorded as McGregor, MacGregor, MacGreggor, Brice, Bryce, Bice, Price, Bruce and even as ‘Bryan’!
But I'm convinced that his name was actually Charles Brice McGregor and that ‘Brice’ is the name he used – the 1820s engraving on the brooch seems to settle this. ‘Brice’ is also used on most of the ‘official’ contemporary records comprising of …..brace yourself!…….: the Dec 1814 Muster Roll for his regiment; the Waterloo Medal Roll ; his 1823 army discharge certificate (including his own signature); the 1827 baptism record of his second daughter, Elizabeth; two membership register volumes of the United Grand Lodge of England: the records of two court appearances as a witness at the Old Bailey in 1837 and 1839; the Royal Household Staff Lists (Yeomen) for 1841/42/44 and 46; the record of his burial at St Margaret’s Westminster on Dec 3rd, 1846; and finally, the indices to entries in the Death Register and the Death Duty Registers for 1846 (and, presumably therefore, in the registers themselves). One, or maybe two, of his grandsons were also given the name ‘Brice’. (I say ‘maybe two’, as I’m not sure if one of the McGregor boys I’ve found, both of whom died in infancy, was a son or a grandson.)
And those are just the ‘official’ records - there are several contemporary newspaper items, including his obituary, which also name him as ‘Brice’. But on the other hand, the majority (but admittedly not all) of the references to him as ‘Bruce’ are in publications produced long after his death.
On the record of his 1805 marriage to Elizabeth Ross and that of the 1814 baptism of his first daughter, Jane Elizabeth, he is named as Charles Brice McGregor. Maybe ‘Brice’ was his mother’s maiden name? I have not been able to find a record of his birth or details of his parents – again, it would be great if any forum members could help.
After his discharge from the army in 1823, he was appointed as keeper of the ‘Foot Guards Suttling House’ in the Tilt-yard at Horse Guards in Whitehall and he died there in 1846. A ‘Suttling House’ was (and still is?) effectively a pub/canteen open to both army personnel and the public. In around 1840, he was also appointed as a Yeoman of the Guard.
The Suttling House tenancy in Whitehall was at the disposal of the field officers of the Foot Guards who reportedly 'bestowed it on old, brave and meritorious non-commissioned officers' and it was granted to Brice 'as a reward for his prowess at the Battle of Waterloo'. It must have been a lucrative appointment as, according to his obituary, he is believed to have left around £15,000 to his son – an enormous sum in 1846.
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All fascinating stuff - to me, anyway! And if any forum members can throw further light on Brice’s life and times and masonic connections, I’ll be very grateful.
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Hello Peter..., and welcome to RootsChat. Lol..., I think we already know each other ! ;)
I’m not quite sure if Sarah believes that this is the best place on the Forum to post your amazing research ? My fault really in as much as I should have PM’d my history question to James.
I’m wondering if you would not get a better result and more interest if you add your post to...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/armed-forces/
Or:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=715581.0
I'm sure Admin wouldn't mind it being posted twice !
Have a nice afternoon. Kind Regards..., Iain.
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Hi Iain :)
Wow, just been reading up on this and also on other forums. Just some bits which likely you have seen but just in case....
Is this Brice as Bruce: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8703057
This fits well with his obit here:
11 December 1846
Friday
Died this evening at his residence, the Foot Guards Suttling House, Whitehall, Mr Brice McGregor in the 65th year of his age, formerly of the 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards. He was a native of Argyleshire and entered at Glasgow into the 3rd Guards 1799. In 1821 he was discharged, receiving a handsome pension and appointed Keeper of the Foot Guards Suttling House. Afterwards appointed Yeoman of the … at St James’s, which place he held till his death. It is … he has left a … not less than £15,000 … liberal … many in … in … country and London. Snow has made its appearance for first time and continued to fall through the morning accompanied by a very sharp frost.....
Nat
Editor’s note: A suttling house provided food and drink to soldiers.
http://boards.fool.com/the-diary-of-nathaniel-bryceson-1846-28950751.aspx?sort=postdate
Ruskie, this find came about from your amazing posts on The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson, www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,490635.0.html
Monica
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Great much more detailed (army record) obit also in The Standard, London, on 11 December 1846. "Demise of a Veteran Highlander".
Also, the Glasgow Herald, 14 December 1846 https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=GGgVawPscysC&dat=18461214&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Page 4, 3rd Col. "Death of a Brave Soldier".
Make sure you use the magnifying tool!
Monica
PS: Reading on elsewhere, think you have all of this...and I have added nothing new really. Sorry :P
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Lol... Hi Monica ! Hope you are well ! Long time no see !
That’s amazing and I’m just about certain that some of the items are totally new. What’s more, I know the others will be overjoyed to read your info.
A bit like Peter and his pendent, this man plays an important roll in my new book about my Battalion at Hougoumont. (Hougoumont being on Wellington’s right flank at Waterloo)
As usual..., lol.., I’m in total admiration !
To be Brice or not to be ?
Before Peter’s pendent, we all thought he was called Bruce principally because of the Archives. Some saying that Brice was an error due to his Scottish accent.
Only a birth/baptism certificate could really confirm the name of course..., nonetheless, it does seem that the Free Masons and his family called him Brice.
He joined up about 4 years before ‘Guardsman’ Matthew Clay and my book is all about this man. Matthew supposedly saved the French Drummer ‘Boy’ when the 30-odd French penetrated the north gate of the farm. (I say “boy” because the archives in Paris have all the drummers over the age of 18. Bizarre !) All the French were killed except the ‘boy.’
http://blidworthhistoricalsociety.co.uk/10501.html
>>>>>>>>>>
In the meantime, while my wife was shopping yesterday, (we are in the south of Belgium) I always profit and visit the local libraries. And yesterday was a ‘success-story’ in as much as I found a letter written by Maréchal Grouchy. (simply attached to the inside back cover of an old book)
I’m waiting for confirmation of his signature from John Franklin before I make any attempt to translate the letter. I hope it’s an original !
Despite it being in French, if we have a problem with some of the words or phrases..., I would like to ask for some help from the professionals here.
Thank you Monica.
Kind Regards..., Iain.
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Thank you Iain and Monica - I'll put my post elsewhere on the Forum as suggested by Iain, but I'll also leave it here (until I get told-off by a moderator) as it's produced great information from Monica.
I see that National Archives have made the same mistake as others in referring to Brice as Bruce! How disgracefully sloppy! The document they refer to is the discharge certificate from which Brice's signature was re-produced in Iain's first item in this post. All the relevant parts of the certificate, including the signature, clearly say 'Brice'. Thankfully, 'Find my Past' got it right.
I think the least we can do for long-dead heroes is get their names right so I've now started a little campaign to get his name corrected wherever I can - please feel free to join in. I made a start with http://jjwargames.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/waterloo-part-two-hougomont-allied.html which has a few pictures of the battle site.
Thanks again. Cheers
PS Now also posted to http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=748712.msg5963857
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Hi Peter
The only thing to always remember is that spelllings of names only really began to get more rigid into the 20th Century. Before then the range of variations on the spelling of a first name or surname can always complicate research as you have to be open minded.
I agree with your earlier comments that in good Scottish practice the middle name is likely to be a surname, often connected to the maternal side. Brice as a first name doesn't really feature much (see this great favourite bible of mine www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=brice). If you take it to have been a surname, again lots of possible spelling variations for that and likely where Bruce has crept in. He obviously preferred the use of Brice though as this seems to be the overwhelming reference for him.
Can't easily see records for him in the Old Parish Registers in Scotland as you have all also found. Any clue on the family's religion? This often can have an impact on records available today if it veered away from the establishd Church of Scotand, ie Presbyterian.
Monica
PS: The brooch is quite fine and beautiful :)
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Hi Monica.
I agree about spellings - my mother's maiden name was Blankhorn and her maternal grandfather's was Quinland, so you can imagine the variations I've come across in my family research!
I don't think that excuses the National Archives for using the wrong name in indexing the particular document in your link, though, as 'Brice' is written on it four times quite clearly (to me, anyway). Maybe it's their mistake that has led to the proliferation of the use of 'Bruce' in more recent times.
His religion was definitely not Roman Catholic - if it had been, in those days he would have incurred the wrath of the Papal authorities by becoming a Freemason and would probably have been ex-communicated! His marriage in 1805 was at St James's, Piccadilly and his 1846 burial was at St Margaret's, Westminster both of which are Anglican.
I am very grateful for your efforts, Monica - thanks again.
Peter
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Hi his rank reads QM Sergeant as in Quartermaster Sergeant
I am trying to find a copy of his waterloo memories, do you have a copy?
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Hi Geegeewaterloo - I've just replied on my other post "Freemason Brice McGregor ....etc." Sorry I can't help.
Cheers
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Hi GG…
Lol…, is your name an interpretation for Grenadier Guards who held Hougoumont’s orchard ? Or are you principally occupied with the Household Cavalry. (the Life Guards and the Blues and Royals)
Sorry…, just joking ! ;)
What makes you think that Bruce wrote his memoires ?
That…, would be extremely interesting to read !
Thanks…, Iain.
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In various accounts Sgt. McGregor is referred to as Bruce.
(my old regiment too)
James
Hi James...
Lol..., are you 'Jimmy'? (SG-RHQ Archives) (Leighton)
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No, 1st Bn. Right Flank. Malaya/Borneo.
James