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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Brutushedge on Friday 20 May 16 10:41 BST (UK)

Title: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Brutushedge on Friday 20 May 16 10:41 BST (UK)
After all the great help this forum gave me with the Wells family, I wonder if anyone can help with the Bantons?

I am having difficulty finding much about John Banton and his wife Catherine (maiden name unknown). They certainly had 1 son, William, who as far as I can see was born in Manchester, about 1810, and married Ellen Barlow on May 31, 1829 in Prestwhich, Lancashire. On 1841 census, Catherine is living with William and Ellen and family, aged 70. Is husband John dead by this date? Catherine does not appear on the 1851 census, and I have found a Catherine BANTAM buried 18 October 1846 in Ancoats, Manchester. Not sure if that is her.

I can find no marriage record for John and Catherine, and no real details for John at all. Manchester and the surrounding areas seem to be key, but possibly not exclusive. Can anyone help?

Thanks.
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: clairec666 on Friday 20 May 16 11:19 BST (UK)
The burial of Catherine Bantam you mentioned is on Familysearch, and she is age 77, born about 1769. It's likely to be the same Catherine on the 1841 census. Remember that the age was rounded down to the nearest 5 years on that census; also people were unsure of their age around that time.

Catherine's husband is probably dead by 1841, but since marital condition isn't stated you can't be sure.
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Brutushedge on Friday 20 May 16 13:44 BST (UK)
Thanks, Claire. That's useful to know
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: mazi on Friday 20 May 16 14:39 BST (UK)
I cen also see in 1841 a Catharine Banton and husband Jno and children living in Manchester,
Are these connected in any way?

Mike
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: philipsearching on Friday 20 May 16 16:56 BST (UK)
On the 1841 census is Catherine recorded as being born in-county?

If not, you may have quite a search ahead!  The population of Manchester increased hugely as the cotton industry expanded.  Mechanisation had reduced the number of agriculutural labourers needed so poor people went to find work in factories.
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Brutushedge on Friday 20 May 16 17:55 BST (UK)
mazzi/Mike,
Where did you find the 1841 Catharine and Jno listed? I'm pretty confident about the 1841 census where Catherine is with her son and daughter-in-law, but am just wondering if your information pre-dates the survey? Or is it in the same census?
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: mazi on Friday 20 May 16 18:06 BST (UK)
I found it on Familysearch, searching for Catherine Banton in Lancashire residence 1840-1842,
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3ACatharine~%20%2Bsurname%3ABanton~%20%2Bresidence_place%3ALancashire~%20%2Bresidence_year%3A1840-1842~%20%2Bany_place%3AEngland~%20%2Bany_year%3A1810-1863~

Sorry I have not learnt how to shrink links  :) :

Mike
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: mazi on Friday 20 May 16 18:10 BST (UK)
Are we looking for the parents of James Banton, fisherman in 1871, with wife Martha and dau. Elizabeth, eliz. seems to have been born two years before the marriage, James may not be the father

Mike
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: rosie99 on Friday 20 May 16 18:15 BST (UK)
Is this the entry you refer to in 1841 you have with Catherine age 70 which is in Bury, Lancashire
William Banton   30   
Ellen      35   
Joseph   11   
Bethsheba 6   
Levina   4   
Stevens   Banton 2   
Catherine   Banton   70   
all born Lancashire

Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: mazi on Friday 20 May 16 18:53 BST (UK)
mazzi/Mike,
Where did you find the 1841 Catharine and Jno listed? I'm pretty confident about the 1841 census where Catherine is with her son and daughter-in-law, but am just wondering if your information pre-dates the survey? Or is it in the same census?


That Catherine has me worried, I am not convinced she is Williams mother.
The biblical names for the children may hint at this family being nonconformist, but I cannot find a William with mother Catherine

Mike
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Brutushedge on Friday 20 May 16 18:56 BST (UK)
Mike,

Yes, it's James' parents. I have noted the discrepancy with Elizabeth's birth and have sent for what I think is her birth certificate, to check the father.
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Brutushedge on Friday 20 May 16 19:01 BST (UK)
Mike,

I have a William christened 28 September 1817, in Manchester Cathedral. Parents John and Catherine Banton. The cathedral certainly has family connections, as it is where William's son James was married to Martha.
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Brutushedge on Friday 20 May 16 19:05 BST (UK)
rosie99:
Yes, that's the one. Another son, James, was born in 1843.
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: mazi on Friday 20 May 16 19:57 BST (UK)
Mike,

I have a William christened 28 September 1817, in Manchester Cathedral. Parents John and Catherine Banton. The cathedral certainly has family connections, as it is where William's son James was married to Martha.

Unless it was a late christening he would be too young to have married Ellen, also that John and Catherine seem to have other children later until 1838, so cannot be the Catherine aged 70 in 1841.

Mike
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Brutushedge on Friday 20 May 16 22:19 BST (UK)
Yes, Mike. From the link you sent me I see a lot more children for John and Catherine, which makes it impossible for the 1841 Catherine to be William's mother. I had just assumed that. Perhaps it was an aunt? I wonder also if they are the same John and Catherine registering the children? Again, I had assumed a late christening for William: one of my grandfathers wasn't christened until he was 20, but I can see it perhaps needs more investigation. Where to start?!

Thanks for all your help so far.
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Annie65115 on Saturday 21 May 16 18:31 BST (UK)
The Lancs opc site is usually quite useful but I'm not coming up with much from it this time!

The only possible hit I can see for this family is this:

Baptism: 8 May 1836 Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Martha Banton - daughter of John Banton & Catherine
    Born: 15 Mar 1836
    Abode: Manchr
    Occupation: Labourer
    Baptised by: H. Fielding
    Register: Baptisms 1836, Page 262, Entry 2094
    Source: LDS Film 1545610

-- no saying this is the correct family.
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Annie65115 on Saturday 21 May 16 18:38 BST (UK)
-- However, cross-referencing with the list of baptisms to children of John and Catherine Banton which shows on an ancestry search, Martha is included here; the children are reasonably spaced, allowing for a coupe of gaps (still births?); and Martha was born not too long before being baptised.

William is the first on this list, the last is Thomas in 1841; a 24 year period of childbearing, suggesting that Catherine would have been pretty young when she had William, that any marriage was probably not long before William's birth, and that both parents of this family were still around at the time of the 1841 census.

But is it the right family? Are we trying to look forwards from John and Catherine, or back from William and Ellen?
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: mazi on Saturday 21 May 16 19:08 BST (UK)
Are we looking for the parents of James Banton, fisherman in 1871, with wife Martha and dau. Elizabeth, eliz. seems to have been born two years before the marriage, James may not be the father

Mike
rosie99:
Yes, that's the one. Another son, James, was born in 1843.


This is the search annie65115, if you like a challenge

Mike

Added, the marriage was in Manchester cath.
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: mazi on Saturday 21 May 16 19:21 BST (UK)
Just to fill in a bit, James is in the 1871 in Grimsby as a fisherman, with wife Martha and Elizabeth.

James is said to be born Manchester, Martha born London, Elizabeth born Manchester, registered on freebmd under Martha's maiden name.

I do not know if the OP has the marriage certificate.

I cannot find a suitable James in 1841, 1851, or 1861 but I only have Familysearch to go on.

Mike
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Annie65115 on Saturday 21 May 16 19:52 BST (UK)
in 1851 the family is at 36 Scholes St, Manchester

William Banton, head, m, age 41, carter - rail
Ellen Banton, m, age 41
Joseph age 20 Porter - rail
Beshel daughter unma age 17  Weaver Power Cotton
Stephen son age 14 scholar
James son age 8 scholar  (all above born Manchester)
John Hughes lodger unmarried age 20 (?) Piecer cotton, b Wales, Mold

IN fact I am not sure if they were all born in Manchester, as some of the children were baptised elsewhere:

Baptism: 3 Aug 1834 St Luke, Heywood, Lancashire, England
Jane Banton - Daughter of William Banton & Ellen
    Abode: Bamford
    Occupation: Engineer
    Baptised by: Rt. Minnitt
    Register: Baptisms 1833 - 1844, Page 30, Entry 232
    Source: Original Register

Baptism: 29 Mar 1835 St Luke, Heywood, Lancashire, England
Bersheba Banton - Daughter of William Banton & Ellen
    Abode: Heap
    Occupation: Engineer
    Baptised by: R. M
    Register: Baptisms 1833 - 1844, Page 55, Entry 431
    Source: Original Register

Baptism: 6 Aug 1837 St Luke, Heywood, Lancashire, England
Levinia Banton - Daughter of Wm. Banton & Ellen
    Born: 18 Dec 1836
    Abode: Gooden Lane
    Occupation: Engineer
    Baptised by: Robt. Minnitt
    Register: Baptisms 1833 - 1844, Page 169, Entry 1341
    Source: Original Register

Baptism: 14 Jan 1844 St Andrew, Ancoats, Lancashire, England
James Banton - [Child] of William Banton & Ellen
    Abode: London Road
    Occupation: Labourer
    Notes: P.
    Baptised by: St. Cranmer
    Register: Baptisms 1831 - 1848, Page 117, Entry 932
    Source: LDS Film 559149

Baptism: 13 Aug 1846 St Simon and St Jude, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Mary Banton - Daughter of William Banton & Ellen
    Born: 21 Jul 1846
    Abode: Scholes's [sic] Street
    Occupation: Labourer
    Baptised by: John Bywater
    Register: Baptisms 1842 - 1849, Page 47, Entry 374
    Source: LDS Family Search
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Saturday 21 May 16 20:07 BST (UK)
That William and Ellen appear tobe the righ family, as the witnesses to James & Martha's wedding are samuel and "Liviner" Cutcheon. Samuel marries lavinia Banton (b Heywood) in 1859 and later they are also in Clee
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: mazi on Saturday 21 May 16 20:12 BST (UK)
Looking good, but there is a huge age difference between this James and the one in Grimsby.

Mike
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Annie65115 on Saturday 21 May 16 20:14 BST (UK)
Now maybe I'm confused, but in 1871 the James in Grimsby is apparently aged 37 - so born 10 years before the James in the William/Martha household.

Do we need clarification of James's age before looking any further?


ETA: James and Martha's marriage cert is available online.
It confirms James's age as 24 (in 1868); occupation seaman; father William Banton, porter.

Possibly James isn't in the 1861 census because he was at sea.
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Saturday 21 May 16 20:47 BST (UK)
Could be a mistake on the 1871 census, although the image is 37. Being exactly 10 years out suggests a mistranscription


Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Brutushedge on Saturday 21 May 16 21:36 BST (UK)
Thanks to you all so far. I will add what I know, or at least think I know.

James and Martha were indeed in Grimsby in 1871. James died at sea in 1874, and I have crew documents from Maritime Archives in Newfoundland. The ship was taking on crew in Grimsby, although registered in Newcastle. I have found throughout my searches with him that his age differs considerably. Whether this was transcription errors, him making up his age, or just common mistakes I don't know.

The information on the 1851 census you mention is certainly what I have believed to be true about the family, with James and William present. Thanks annie65115 for the baptism details.

Only this evening I have found some more information about William Banton, James' father and the son of John? and Catherine? William is listed as witness at the 2 marriages of his daughter Bathsheba: 2 August 1857 to John Simpson, in Ancoats St. Andrew's, and again on 7 December 1873, when the widowed Bathsheba Simpson marries Thomas Jarvis. On both certificates William is listed as William Clement or Clemence Banton. This is the first time I have seen this middle name used, but the evidence seems convincing.

So far, I have only found a William Clement BANTAN, born 1805 in Bentham, North Yorkshire. Parents William Bantan and Catherine Pearson, married 1796. Other children are Joseph, Betty, Mary and Agatha. William Banton declares on the 1851 census that he was born in Manchester, so this doesn't fit. However, if the children were declared born in Manchester and then not, is this William Clement a possible?

Thanks again to you all for all the expert work so far. I'm sure William (Clement/Clemence) Banton's siblings and parents are out there somewhere.
Title: Re: John Banton and wife Catherine
Post by: Brutushedge on Saturday 21 May 16 22:09 BST (UK)
Oh, and just to clear things a little more if it helps, James and Martha Banton's daughter was Edith, not Elizabeth. I have her birth certificate and have posted yet another question on the Lancashire board about her birth at Hough's Buildings in Newton. If in doubt, turn to the Rootschat people!