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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: Grisel on Friday 20 May 16 18:41 BST (UK)

Title: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Grisel on Friday 20 May 16 18:41 BST (UK)
Hello,

Does anyone know where I can get info on the Rev. Robert Hogg, born approx. 1710. He died in Roxburgh in 1787, I believe.  I think he married Mary Hume.  They had six children.

I can't find a birth/baptism for him.  Does anyone know who his parents were?

Any help greatly appreciated.

Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: hdw on Friday 20 May 16 18:52 BST (UK)
If he was a minister of the Church of Scotland there will be some biographical information about him in the Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae, the multi-volume biographical dictionary of kirk ministers since the Reformation. It's available to browse online.

Harry
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: hdw on Friday 20 May 16 19:01 BST (UK)
The only Robert Hogg born at about the right time in Roxburghshire was baptised on 18th November 1711 in Jedburgh to James Hogg, deacon of the weavers. John Hogg and William Hogg, weavers, were witnesses.

A James Hogg was married at Stitchill & Hume in 1695 but he was a wright, not a weaver.

Harry
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Grisel on Friday 20 May 16 19:29 BST (UK)
Thanks, hdw.

I had seen that birth in Jedburgh before, I was just wondering if anyone had any way to confirm that it was right or not.  There is a couple births in Roxburgh a few years earlier that are also possibilities. I was hoping for a way to avoid just 'guessing'.

Nothing is coming up on Ancestry when I search the Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae. Maybe he wasn't Church of Scotland  :(
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: GR2 on Friday 20 May 16 20:39 BST (UK)
The Fasti says he was a native of the parish of Roxburgh; licensed 5-12-1732; presented and ordained 11-6-1735; died 2-2-1781 in his 77th year; married Mary Home 31-12-1743 (she died 8-3-1810); details are given about the following children - Isobel, Alexander, Elizabeth, Charlotte, Mary, Christian and Veronica.
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Grisel on Friday 20 May 16 20:47 BST (UK)
Where did you find that?? :o

I know it's sometimes hard to find things using Ancestry search... I wanted to browse, but I couldn't see what synod Roxburghshire would be in. 
Could you give a volume/page# so I could look at it if it's online?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: GR2 on Friday 20 May 16 21:32 BST (UK)
Volume 2 Synods of Merse and Teviotdale.

http://www.dwalker.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Map.htm
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Iandj on Friday 20 May 16 21:55 BST (UK)
Blackwood's Magazine, Vol 10 (page 489) has a register of marriages and deaths that contains the following entry for 1st Oct 1821:
"At Bellaberta, in the county of Berwick, Miss Veronica Hogg, youngest daughter of the late Rev Robert Hogg, minister of Roxburgh, aged 63."

So she would have been born in about 1758. Too much of a coincidence surely?

Added: Just found this - http://www.roxburgh.bordernet.co.uk/history/ministers.html

Ian
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Iandj on Friday 20 May 16 22:18 BST (UK)
I have just had a very quick look at ScotlandPeople. All the births to Robert Hogg and Mary Hume come up if you do a search on the spelling 'Hog'. There are also several possibilities for Robert Hog.

Ian
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Grisel on Saturday 21 May 16 00:03 BST (UK)
Yes, I do have the births for all the children. And the death for Vair/Veronica.  But I was more worrying about heading the other way - finding a birth for Robert.  Now that I have his age from the Fasti, the births in Roxburgh look better: 1705 parents Alexander & Bessie, or 1708 parents William & Bessie. 
The copy of the Fasti Ecclesiae on Ancestry doesn't have all the info that GR2 can see.  I don't see all the children mentioned - just three of his daughters.  Are there different versions/publication dates out there?
Great to have suggestions and help from everyone!
I have been googling all day and never found that list of ministers that Ian has pointed out. 
Several sets of eyes are better than one!
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: GR2 on Saturday 21 May 16 00:19 BST (UK)
If you click on the link in my last post and look at page 87 of volume two, you'll get the details of his children and their marriages.
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Grisel on Saturday 21 May 16 03:25 BST (UK)
Thanks for pointing that out GR2 - I'll have a look at it.  That should help a lot.
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Sunlaws on Wednesday 25 May 16 19:48 BST (UK)
Robert HOGG's gravestone reads:
'Sacred to the memory of the Revd Robert Hogg late Minister of the Gospel in Roxburgh who died 2.2.1781 in the 77th year of his age and the 46th of his Ministry also his daughter Christian Hogg who died at Sunlaws Hill 4.8.1834 aged 79 years.'
My dog-walk will probably take me past the church on Friday, so I can take a photo if you like.
His daughter Charlotte's MI:
'Sacred to the memory of Charlotte Brown who departed this life 22.11.1836 aged 85(?) years relict of William Brown Esq. and third daughter of the Revd Robert Hogg.'
Another interesting plaque (possibly erected by the Revd Robert Hogg to commemorate his ancestors?) reads:
'Here lyes a family of the name of Hogg that has resided in this parish as heretofor more than 600 years as old records do attest were portioners both in Upper and Neither Roxburgh until about 1725. Here lyes William Hogg portioner and Jean Seaton his spouse. John Hogg portioner and Varona Ker his spouse. Alexander Hogg and Betty Mein his spouse'.
Is he naming the three previous generations, I wonder, the most recent being his parents, Alexander and Bessie?
Regards,
Lesley
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Sunlaws on Wednesday 25 May 16 20:30 BST (UK)
Answering my own question in previous post-
Alexander HOG and Bessie MEIN were married 27th April 1702 in Roxburgh. They christened 9 children there:
John 24.11.1702, Vair 12.3.1704, Robert 30.12.1705, William 22.2.1708, Alexander 7.1.1711, Barbarie 1.10.1712, Agnes 6.2.1715, Bessie 10.3.1717 and Andrew 14.6.1719.
Going back one generation, I can't see a marriage for John Hog and Vair KER but they christened children at Roxburgh from 1660:
Thomas 13.2.1660, William 24.6.1661, Johne 30.7.1662, Robert 4.12.1665, Jean 9.1.1668, Andro 15.8.1669,Christina 14.9.1671, Alexander 31.1.1676, Andrew 23.6.1677.
William Hog and Jean SEATON were married in Kelso on 4th September 1608. They christened an un-named child in September 1625 at Roxburgh, but Roxburgh baptismal registers only begin in 1624, so any previous children they christened are unrecorded.
regards,
Lesley
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Grisel on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:12 BST (UK)
That's amazing, Lesley.  I was just looking at the transcription of the "three-generation" plaque again today, and it had only just occurred to me that that's what it might be.  The dates certainly line up, don't they?  I am glad you pointed out that the birth records only began in 1624, because I was wondering if they had only had one child, or just hadn't registered any others.
 
I would be really pleased to see photos of those stones - I just have a transcription off someone's family website.

I am wondering if Vair/Vairona Ker was a daughter of Sir Thomas Ker that lived in the area at that time. Vair seems to be a name that is in the Ker family; several of Vair's Hogg descendents used it as well.
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Iandj on Thursday 26 May 16 14:21 BST (UK)
You may well be right, Grisel, about Vair Ker. Sir Thomas Ker of Redden married Jean Ker, daughter of James Ker of Chatto, and Ancestry indicates that Sir Thomas Ker and Jeane Ker had a daughter called Vair, baptised at Sprouston, Roxburgh on 11 August 1636. Johne Hog married Wair Ker at Kelso on 7th  Feb 1659.

Ian
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Sunlaws on Thursday 26 May 16 21:52 BST (UK)
I would agree that Vair Ker appears to be the daughter of Sir Thomas Ker of Redden (who was knighted at Dunfermline in 1633). Burke's (1898) says that Thomas of Redden was the son of William Ker of Ancrum by Margaret daughter of Alexander Dundas of Fingask.

Grisel, I will send you a PM with my email address so I can get yours, to be able to send photos without Rootschat's size restrictionRegards,

Lesley
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Grisel on Thursday 26 May 16 23:06 BST (UK)

Yes, I think it makes sense.  Glad others agree!

Broken another brick wall  :)
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Iandj on Thursday 26 May 16 23:57 BST (UK)
Glad you've sorted it, Grisel. William Ker of Ancram is my 1st cousin, 14 times removed.

Ian
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Grisel on Friday 27 May 16 00:25 BST (UK)

The William that died in 1590?

He's my 10th great grandfather

 :)

Wonder how many great10 grandchildren he has now?
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Iandj on Friday 27 May 16 11:23 BST (UK)
Yes, that's right. I gather William was murdered by his nephew, Sir Robert Ker of Cessford (later 1st Earl of Roxburghe) in 1590. William's aunt, Janet Ker, was my 13th g-grandmother by her first marriage, which was to George Turnbull.

And I reckon the great10-grandchildren must run into the hundreds, if not thousands

Ian
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Grisel on Friday 27 May 16 15:20 BST (UK)
I'm guessing thousands would be a good estimate!  I have seen a chart that showed possible # of ancestors in each generation.  I think on the 10th great grandparent level, the number was something over 4,000.  I suppose the numbers would be similar if you turned it around, maybe even more?!
Have you ever read of or traced a link between the Roxburghshire Kers and the Kers of Samuelston, in East Lothian?  I was researching another branch of the family who were ag labs in that part of the country and ran across references to a George Ker and daughter Nicholas who owned land in and around Samuelston.
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Tuesday 15 June 21 11:47 BST (UK)
Reviving this old thread.

The previous links are broken now so here is a current link to the Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae.

https://archive.org/details/fastiecclesisc02scot/page/86/mode/2up?q=hog


I have been looking at Robert Hogg’s son Alexander and I think the Fasti may be wrong with the date of death. I would love to hear other peoples thoughts on this.

I am looking at this Alexander buried in Roxburgh:

Sacred to the memory of ALEXANDER HOGG formerly tenant in
Homebank who died 30.8.1823 in the 78th year of his age and ISABELLA
YOUNG his spouse died 2.5.1819 aged 70 years also ARCHIBALD HOGG
their son died 28.12.1802 aged 14 years also ANDREW HOGG who died
in infancy also ELISABETH HOGG their daughter died 25.9.1832 aged 55
years also ROBERT HOGG their son died 15.10.1833 aged 62 years also
ANDREW HOGG their son died at Birgam 9.3.1838 aged 17 years also
HELEN HOGG their daughter died at Elwartlaw 5.6.1847 aged 61 years
also MARY HOGG their daughter died 9.9.1848 aged 72 years also
ALEXANDER HOGG their fourth son who died at Elwartlaw 26.1.1851
aged 70 years.
Reverse: Also in memory of JOHN HOGG son of the said parents who
died at Elwartlaw 3.3.1858 aged 75 years and ISABELLA HOGG who
died at Greenlaw 20.6.1863 aged 68 years.


Alexander Hog and Isabella Young had the following children.

Robert - Kersmains 22/06/1771
William - Kersmains 20/02/1773
Mary - Kersmains 31/03/1775
Betty - Kersmains 22/12/1776
Alexander - Kersmains 04/11/1778
Alexander - Kersmains 21/10/1780
John - Kersmains 26/02/1783
Andrew - Kersmains 05/01/1785
Archibald - Kersmains 13/10/1788
Isabel - Kersmains 15/11/1795
Christian - Kersmains 23/08/1802

I think the last two are probably not Alexander’s and likely concealed illegitimacy of either Mary or Betty or both but anyway.
The reasons I am thinking Rev Robert Hogg may be this Alexander’s father is Alexander’s children mostly died in Berwickshire but were buried in Roxburgh, this suggests a family connection to me and the names of his children. His first son is named Robert, his first daughter Mary. The pattern is slightly out from the traditional naming convention but Alexander Hog and Bessie Mein (Robert’s parents) followed the same pattern when naming their children.

Questions for people who know the graveyard well. How close are the gravestones, is this in the same area as Rev Robert Hogg and his father Alexander? Is this a family plot? Is there another Alexander Hogg buried in Roxburgh that ties-in with the Fasti date of 1774? And finally, how likely is the Fasti to be wrong? Was there a revised edition with corrections?

Many thanks for your help and for the work previously on this thread.
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Sunlaws on Tuesday 15 June 21 21:50 BST (UK)
Hi

I'm not sure of the whereabouts of the grave of Alexander and family, but Robert Hogg's memorial and the plaque presumed to name his parents, grandparents and great-grandparents are both on the wall of the church.
I can't comment on the accuracy of the Fasti, though other dates given for this family appear to be corroborated on the gravestones.
Lesley
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Wednesday 16 June 21 08:41 BST (UK)
Thank you. Great to see the photos.

I’d initially rejected Rev Robert as the father because of the Fasti record but questioning it, and looking again, I think there is a strong possibility there may be an error. It’s a niggling thought I’d like to prove one way or the other.

I think if Rev Robert’s son Alexander died before Robert I would expect an inscription to him in the Kirkyard, especially as Robert is the Reverend there. Finding such an inscription would settle my Fasti doubts.


The dates line up depending on the inscription interpretation.

Rev Robert’s Alexander was born 11 May 1746 (indexed as 13th on SP).

The Homebank Alexander died on 30 August 1823.

Working out the age between the two gives me 77 years 3 months and 19 days to be exact. 

Now it’s all about how “in the 78th year of his age” is interpreted.



While searching, I see the Roxburgh Parish Church is up for sale.

https://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/about-us/property-and-church-buildings/properties-for-sale/properties/churches-and-halls/roxburgh_church2

Offers around £85,000. Some really nice photos. I have never visited but feel strangely connected from pouring through the records and I'm sad to see it on the market.
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Sunlaws on Wednesday 16 June 21 11:33 BST (UK)
Hi
I walked to the kirk this morning (it's 'under offer', by the way.)

Significantly, Alexander's stone is right next to the Hogg family plaque which we supposed (see earlier postings in this thread) to commemorate Rev. Robert's parents, grandparents and great-grandparents.
Rev. Robert's memorial is at the opposite end of the wall.

I would agree that there is likely an error in the Fasti. Someone who has had their 77th birthday is then in the 78th year of their age, so the dates fit perfectly for Homebank Alexander (is that the Homebank near Birgham?).
(See separate post for close-up photo of grave- too big for one post.)

Lesley
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Sunlaws on Wednesday 16 June 21 11:37 BST (UK)
Close-up of Alexander Hogg's stone- I can confirm that the dates are '1823' and '78th year of his age'.
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Wednesday 16 June 21 12:56 BST (UK)
That’s amazing Lesley. Thank you so much for the photos. Wonderful to see.

Homebank is next to Birgham, yes.

That would certainly be my interpretation of “in the 78th year of his age” but I always have to pause and think for a moment.

The family seem to be connected to Elwartlaw next to Greenlaw, Homebank near Birgham and Kersmains north of Roxburgh. I see from Scotlands Places the family were paying horse tax and also Alexander paid Clock and Watch tax at Homebank in 1797-1798.

Thanks again for the photos, it certainly adds weight to the Fasti being incorrect on the date of death.
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Wednesday 16 June 21 13:08 BST (UK)
And while we’re having a bit of a language discussion.

Here is the death notice for Homebank Alexander’s son Alexander in 1851.

I confuse myself every time I read it trying to work out if ‘tenant of Homebank’ refers to the father or son.
Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: Sunlaws on Wednesday 16 June 21 19:55 BST (UK)
I think I would plump for Alexander senior being the former tenant of Homebank.

Your William Hogg 1809 of Kelso married Mary of Roxburgh, as far as I can gather from your posts. What was Mary's surname before marriage?

Lesley

Title: Re: Rev. Robert Hogg of Roxburgh
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Wednesday 16 June 21 20:51 BST (UK)
Mary Waldie

In 1861 William and Mary were living in Kersmains.

I know William’s parents were Andrew Hogg and Elizabeth Davidson. The Andrew is a bit of a mystery. I’ve been exploring other Hogg’s in the area to see where he could maybe fit in and focusing on the areas I know they lived.

One candidate is Alexander’s son Andrew who was born January 1785 at Kersmains. Elizabeth (Betty) Davidson was born October 1782.

The names of William’s and his sister Elizabeth’s children do contain an Isabel, Alexander and Robert - but so do most of the families at that time! Alexander’s Andrew died in 1838 which fits in with my line.

I don’t think this Andrew is the right one but I did spend some time exploring the possibility. I haven’t eliminated him completely but my Andrew is described as a Farm Steward and Land Steward on the death certificates of William and Elizabeth and Alexander’s Andrew was tenant at Birgham Haugh,  I also have his will (well the inventory) and only his brother is named.