RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Worcestershire => Topic started by: Woodabyna on Tuesday 31 May 16 05:41 BST (UK)
-
Hello all family sleuths. First time poster from Australia and asking for some clues to work out a family photo mystery. We have a small daguerreotype (silver plate photo) of an older lady in mourning clothes. It was given to my great Aunty Dorothy Jean and said to be Dorothy Jane Gregg (her great great grandmother).
Normally I concentrate on my family in Australia as it is 6th generation but this one is a great mystery due to the amazing age of the photo. Also obviously they would have had to have money to get one of the first photos done.
While not familiar with UK family searching I have traced the Gregg line to a Joseph Gregg and Emma Litchfield marrying in 15 Jan 1844, West Bromwich, Staffordshire. Children Harriett Gregg (married Alexander King and my linage) 01 Dec 1843, Eliza Gregg died 1845 (and assumed born the same year), and Thomas William baptised St Martins Birmingham 1847.
I found Joseph in the 1841 census, parents James and Ann. Joseph died somewhere between 1847 and the 1851 census as Emma is listed as a widow. I can not find a death or burial, any clues?
Emma & Harriett came to Australia (unknown when as couldn't find them entering Australia) and Emma remarried. Her parents were Joseph and Jane and she was born in Bromsgrove.
So long story short maybe the photo is of Jane Litchfield not Gregg??? Either way I would like to try and track her down now. Any ideas or paths to take would be very appreciated.
Regards
Hayley
-
Do you have any middle names or initials for Jane Litchfield?
That would help get the right one.
-
and welcome to Rootschat!
-
Thank you, long time reader of all the great resources!
No sorry no middle names (only possibly Dorothy). Found Jane's name on Emma's death record in Victoria Australia. But just listed as Jane with no last name.
I have attached the photo. I am thinking around 1850's/60's as thats when that type of photography came in.
Cheers, Hayley
-
Any clues on the back of the photo/frame?
Caution: Do not remove the photo if fragile
Tony
-
None on frame, not about to take it apart as air ruins the silver. Here is the back. Frame is only 52mm X 65mm
-
Can you tell us the ref. of the 1851 census? Have looked at 2 different sites and can't find widowed Emma anywhere.
Annette
-
Ohh sure thanks for looking :) - its a tricky one that one of my cousins worked out. Same address as when children were baptised. It is under the name Gress and looks on the paper like Grefs.
-
Hi Hayley
Not sure if you will be able to access this from Oz:
Last few hours of free weeks use of Findmypast.co.uk until midnight UK time for BMD/Census searches.
Tony
-
thanks but cant see to get access. I'm on ancestry and found the FreeBDM REG CEN etc. trying to sort out my UK searching..... :P
-
Back to the back of the photo:
There seems to be something written in the top opposite corner to the "26 corner".
"ACR" with a number after it maybe. (Written at an angle.)
Also is there an embossed or watermark oval shape in the centre with numbers and lettering going around the outside of the oval.
Not clear on the scan, can you make it out with the naked eye Hayley?
-
All I have is the photos, Cousin has the item. But I cant make out anything on the back.... I think you are making numbers out of marks ;)
Thanks for the interest.
Hayley
-
Hi
Eliza was 14 weeks when she was buried.I can't find Joseph's burial and I'm assuming you have his and his siblings christenings.
The couple James and Ann are on the 1851 and 1861 censuses.
Christenings for the Litchfield family are Emma and William at Bromsgrove 10.11.1824 of the High Street horse keeper.
Probably a little brother Joseph infant buried 16.9.1821 of the High St.
It explains how Joseph the farrier's son and Emma the horse keeper's daughter met.
Ciderdrinker
-
ohhh thanks heaps!! Few little bits there to add to the tree. Thanks so much for the input. I will check it all over again but pretty sure its too old for the photo. After a bit of research I am looking at dates around 1850's-1860's for the photo. Many of the women in the family died youngish and I think the lady in the photo is older.
Any thoughts on the age of the lady? Her hands look old but that could be just a sign of the times - hard workers....
Thanks again for your input!! Amazing about the horse connection.... off to investigate.
-
Is the sitter in the photo age 67?
-
Sorry are you guessing or asking me? I have no idea but trying to rule so family out as they died before 45 years old. Still digging
-
If you rotate the back of the photo to landscape with the "26" in the bottom right hand corner and upside down.
I think written in the corner above at a 45-degree angle are three letters and a two digit number.
Could be "AGE 67"
-
My goodness do you have superpowers! ;D Yes I see what you mean now and have contacted my cousin to see if they can make out something on the original. Thanks, will let you know.
I am still trying to work out who Jane Litchfield is/was as I think this is my best guess as to the lady in the photo as the Gregg side died young and the next generation ended up in a asylum and workhouse so dont think they would have the money for a photo back then.
Thanks all for the interest.
-
I use a Tablet Computer to look at images, easy to rotate and zoom in and out.
Also ask your cousin to examine the oval shape I can see in the centre, may be a Studio logo or suchlike. Think I can see letters and numbers, one number may read 531. Can't make out the other characters.
Or could be a mark left by a prop or stand.
A source of UV light may help. Is there a museum near by which could help?
Tony
-
Thanks Tony, I will see what they come back with.
-
If Jane Litchfield is the sitter in the photo she must be on 1841/1851 and possibly 1861 Census//
I did a bit of digging;
These are all the Litchfield/Lichfields I found Christened to a JOSEPH/JANE on Familysearch.Org;
ELIZA, 14 September 1817. St James the Less, Ashted, Warwickshire
MARY ANN, 15 June 1821, St. Martin's, Birmingham, Warwickshire
EMMA/WILLIAM, 10 November 1824, Bromsgrove, Worcestershire
JOSEPH, 11 Aug 1828, St Martin, Birmingham, Warwickshire
GEORGE, 20 July 1829, St Martin, Birmingham, **Buried 24 January 1836
CAROLINE, 27 Aug 1832, St Martin, Birmingham
So this fits the 1841 Census below as Emma is there;
1841 Census
Meriden St,
St Martin, Birmingham, Warwickshire
HO107/1142/3/St Martin
Jane LICHFIELD, 40, no occp
EMMA, 15
Joseph, 14
Caroline, 8
All down as born in County
Carolines Christening is on Anc Fathers Occp Car Driver
An Joseph its Horse keeper
On both address is Meriden St.
Note spelling is LICHFIELD.
Caroline LITCHFIELD age 22 Married Richard Henry MASES, 13 Mar 1854 Aston, St Peter and St Paul, Warwickshire, Father JOSEPH, Occp Carman
Having trouble finding her and Jane in 1851 though.
Trish :)
EDIT FreeBMD has the Marriage as CATHERINE Lichfield with no coresponding Spouse
1881 they are under MOSES, Caroline born c 1833 Birmingham
They are living in Meriden St (she didnt move far!)
1861/1871 under MOSSES
1891 Richard is Widowed
-
Wow thanks Trish :) - I have a lot to learn about searching these yet! ::) I will sit down after tea and go back over it all. Thanks so much..... hope to get to the bottom of it as I would love to put a definite name to the photo.
Hayley
-
Your welcome Hayley.
I have added a bit more to it re Caroline you may have not seen.
Still cant find Joseph/Jane 1851/1861 though.
Trish :)
-
Thanks, yes I spent a good part of my cuppa and lunchtime today searching for them..... its a good time waster that's for sure! I'm still halfway going through street names in one of the census to see who lives in the same street! Such are the things to do on a wet and cold day!
-
Marriage entry on FreeBMD for March quarter 1854 in Aston district shows Richard Henry MOSES and Caroline LITCHFIELD on the same page.
-
Thanks BumbleB, dont know what I did :-[
-
Oki Doki bit more to add
So the lady who gave the photo to my great Aunt came from a family of 16 children, 14 of which went through to adulthood!! All of which I feel have been named after ancestors (YES thanks GGGM Harriett! [I feel she was a family historian before her time!])
Most names I have accounted for - be they fathers, grandfathers, grandmothers, grandmothers maiden names, uncles and great.... you get the drift etc.
However there is a few I can not account for and one is Robert George Jennings King (King being his surname). This sparked my interest when I saw Charles Jennings on the 1841 Census that Trish turned up. I comes under a different household but on the page it doesn't seem to. Coincidence?? So is Jennings Jane Litchfield's Maiden name?? Or it is her second husband?? I cant seem to find anything. There were a few other names I didnt associate with (mind you it was the last few children so she would have had to be running out of options!). These were Alfred, Edwin, Duncan, Walter and Victor Hugh. Also Jessie turns up twice - once as a first name and then as a second name in the girls which I cant associate.
Interesting to note that Charles Jennings is also a Carman (Whatever that is) which is what Jane's husband Joseph was before he disappears.
Thanks again for the interest - the mystery continues.
Hayley
-
A carman is what we would call a van driver today.
Drove a vehicle to deliver goods.
Using a horse drawn covered carriage or van.
-
Yippee just found this but it is nearly midnight and my brain is fried and hurts to think! and of course they were on the census living next door in Meriden Street! Anyone give me any more pointers? Goodnight good people!
-
1851 Census Charles/Jane are living in Birmingham, Warwickshire
Charles born c 1801 Staffordshire , Occp Carman, Jane c 1797 Birmingham
Looks like you maybe right as in 1861 Jane has a Elizabeth Mause with her.
Could be Elizabeth Moses?
1861 Census
Shilton, Warwickshire
RG9/2200/15/1
Jane JENNINGS, 64, Head, Widow, Governess, born Winnel Hall, Warwickshire
Elizabeth MAUSE, 1, Neice, born Birmingham
-
The 1845 M/C may be worth purchasing
-
Once again thank you Trish, good pickup on the Mause/Moses. I am still currently chasing more info on the photo and the photographic processes and timing. I will report anything that I find when I have time to process it all (excuse the pun!)
Thanks for the help once again.
Hayley
-
1851 Census Charles/Jane are living in Birmingham, Warwickshire
Charles born c 1801 Staffordshire , Occp Carman, Jane c 1797 Birmingham
Looks like you maybe right as in 1861 Jane has a Elizabeth Mause with her.
Could be Elizabeth Moses?
1861 Census
Shilton, Warwickshire
RG9/2200/15/1
Jane JENNINGS, 64, Head, Widow, Governess, born Winnel Hall, Warwickshire
Elizabeth MAUSE, 1, Neice, born Birmingham
Hi Trish, without giving away all your super sleuth skills how did you find this? I couldnt get it on any search on either person, ended up looking up the numbers you provided.
-
I just looked for;
Charles Jennings, no date , lived in Staffordshire
Clicked on Census and Voter Lists
Then clicked on 1851 Census
Charles/Jane were the 1st entry that came up.
After I had Janes dob/pob she was easy to find in 1861
Trish :)