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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: cazza59 on Thursday 09 June 16 13:31 BST (UK)
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This one is a bit different and maybe impossible. The attached picture/postcard has three clues on the back:
St Mary's
1909
Mrs Richards
It would be amazing if we could by some miracle find where this church school is/was so we can post it on the appropriate board in the event that a Rootschatter's relative might be featured in the photo.
It's probably a tall order as goodness knows how many St Mary's there were/are, but I'm presuming either rightly or wrongly that Mrs Richards was the teacher, which could be the only clue.
Anyway, this is your mission if you chose to accept! :P :P
Caz
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I believe that in 1909 once a female teacher got married then she could no longer hold the post of teacher. In England and Wales. Whether the regulation came into existence in the 1920s, I do not know.
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We don't know that Mrs. Richards was a teacher though do we.
Carol
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I can only see one adult in the picture and he's male (right hand side near back)
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Just googled this and from what I have just read, they could be married but at some point there was a teacher surplus so the hiring of married teachers was restricted, but then this was removed due to a shortage of teachers during the war.
Anyone else know anything about this?
Caz
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Mostly girls, with only a few boys.
In those days, most schools had separate "Boys" and "girls" entrance doors, I think?
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Interesting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/women_teaching.shtml
Carol
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Mostly girls, with only a few boys.
In those days, most schools had separate "Boys" and "girls" entrance doors, I think?
It might be a church...they often put on Pantomimes.
Carol
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I can only see one adult in the picture and he's male (right hand side near back)
Well spotted Lizzie.
If Mrs Richards wasn't the teacher, then possibly a parent or a complete red herring. Personally I think this task may be too hard. :(
Caz
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Mostly girls, with only a few boys.
In those days, most schools had separate "Boys" and "girls" entrance doors, I think?
It might be a church...they often put on Pantomimes.
Carol
Definitely looks like the exterior of a church to me.
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Deja vu .... ;D
I believe that in 1909 once a female teacher got married then she could no longer hold the post of teacher. In England and Wales. Whether the regulation came into existence in the 1920s, I do not know.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=750012.msg5979541
Fabulous photo Caz. Looks like the children are in costume. A play perhaps?
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Buttresses on the left so it could be a church.
The children look well turned out and fairly well to do.
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I thought it was an affluent area, also are the girls in front sitting on hassocks borrowed from the church, I wonder if it is a Sunday school picture.
Mike
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Adding the name Mrs. Richards, St. Mary's - 1909 to the title might pull in the punters Caz...otherwise...we have more chance of getting the inside leg measurements of the Pope than getting the name of the place this was taken ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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A lot of the little girls seem to be dressed as angels or fairies.
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The photo is in amazing condition, just slight silvering on the corners from being in an album.
The costumes are quite elaborate, check out the young toff with his top hat and tails! Definitely well to do families.
Caz
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Adding the name Mrs. Richards, St. Mary's - 1909 to the title might pull in the punters Caz...otherwise...we have more chance of getting the inside leg measurements of the Pope than getting the name of the place this was taken ;D ;D ;D
Carol
To be honest Carol I think Mission Impossible just about sums it up. ::)
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Some element of Nativity because of Stars.
Whether there are Three wise men?
The person with the top hat could be dressed up to be like the Lord Mayor. Someone with a Bowler Hat would be like a Foreman or a Civil Servant. A tricorn Hat like a Town Clerk.
I wonder if they had borrowed their head gear from their Fathers?
Could it be celebrating the launching of a ship?
So, Liverpool (Birkenhead) Belfast or Glasgow.
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Could it be celebrating the launching of a ship?
So, Liverpool (Birkenhead) Belfast or Glasgow.
If you are going to use that criterion it could also be Tyneside ::) ::)
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Wasn't sure if I should mention this because I could be sending people off on a wild goose chase, but this photo was in the same batch as the Hertfordshire cards. However, there are also postcards from Norwich and a few other random places in this batch, so in reality, it could be anywhere.
Caz
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Are the boy and girl in centre back supposed to be Mary and Joseph, and are they linking arms?
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Cant see anything ship-related.
Might be a nativity play.
Lots of Schools called St Mary's, many of which linked to a Church of the same name.
Probably a "Mission Impossible" as stated!!! But I am sure we wont give up too easily!!
JUst been looking at St Mary's Shenfield (Essex) on google street view, comparing the pillar at the side of the old entrance way to the pillar on the left in the photo, but it is a different shape.
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I'd actually thought of it being some sort of Nativity production SB , seeing all the little ones that look to be dressed as Angels.
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I thought they could be fairies Claire as they all have wands...I was thinking more panto than nativity but it's only a guess.
Carol
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Yes fairies (never thought of those)- they all have wands :)
Could be a production of a Midsummer Night's Dream
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The girl next to the boy in the top hat on the left looks to be holding an Orb or similar...some appear to be in national dress too.
Carol
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Maybe it's my eyes but the boy between the lad in the bowler hat and the one wearing a hood looks to be covered with wooden beads.
Jen
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It's not your eyes, they do look like wooden beads... ;)
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Some random observations:
There is some fairly distinctive brickwork on the right edge of the building - it looks like every second brick is protruding (but it might just be my eyes or monitor).
The ground looks really rocky and some of the children are sitting on boarding of some sort - so wondering if the church is recently built and "landscaping" not yet completed.
Is there a fence on the right hand side of the building? Are there buildings beyond the fence? If so it may be an inner city location.
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I wonder if little Hilda is in it? Watton on Stone had a St. Mary`s and also an interesting family called Richards. Check out the 1911 ;D Just enter the surname and the place.
Mo
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It's not your eyes, they do look like wooden beads... ;)
Might be meant to represent a soldier in chain mail
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Some random observations:
There is some fairly distinctive brickwork on the right edge of the building - it looks like every second brick is protruding (but it might just be my eyes or monitor).
The ground looks really rocky and some of the children are sitting on boarding of some sort - so wondering if the church is recently built and "landscaping" not yet completed.
Is there a fence on the right hand side of the building? Are there buildings beyond the fence? If so it may be an inner city location.
I think the bricks might be alternating light and dark so look as if some protrude.
The boy on the left looks like he's sitting on the base of a buttress, so could be church building.
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The Hertford mercury 17 Nov 1917 has a report of death of Signaller John S Richards, oldest son of John Richards who as been schoolmaster at Watton at Stone for past 25 years.
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Good call Lizzie...you might be on to something there.
Carol
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Next to the boy wearing the wooden beads, is a boy holding a violin.
It's amazing what detail you can pick out :)
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Good call Lizzie...you might be on to something there.
Carol
But Watton at Stone church is flint not brick and it's dedicated to st Andrew and St Mary.
I think it just might be a coincidence
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I can't see any sort of banner to represent this group - otherwise I would suggest a tradition such as Club Day ( Walking round day ) such as held in Leek, Staffs https://traditionalcustomsandceremonies.wordpress.com/2015/07/31/custom-survived-leek-club-day/
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Good call Lizzie...you might be on to something there.
Carol
But Watton at Stone church is flint not brick and it's dedicated to st Andrew and St Mary.
I think it just might be a coincidence
It could be the old school though. Unfortunately it was demolished in 1980 and I cannot find a photo of it. The St Andrew bit wasn't added until early 19th C so maybe even a hundred years later it was still known as St Marys.
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It wouldn't be Empire Day would it?
Secondly, Will someone send a PM to "Mike in Cumbria" please? I seem to recall that he is an expert on bricks and building blocks.
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I can't see any sort of banner to represent this group - otherwise I would suggest a tradition such as Club Day ( Walking round day ) such as held in Leek, Staffs https://traditionalcustomsandceremonies.wordpress.com/2015/07/31/custom-survived-leek-club-day/
Wigan had something similar.
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I thought Empire Day but there would be Flags.
Carol
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Has anyone any idea who the young man standing on the right side is dressed up as, please?
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It wouldn't be Empire Day would it?
Secondly, Will someone send a PM to "Mike in Cumbria" please? I seem to recall that he is an expert on bricks and building blocks.
There is nothing banner or flag like to suggest Empire Day. There are stars and wands in this photo, so some other kind of occassion I think. Google "empire day" and look at the images to get an idea of how different empire day celebration attire.
Added: You are quite welcome to PM Mike yourself if you wish to.
Looking again, I think it might be a play/performance of some sort. The younger girls wearing the star headbands and carrying wands may be "extras" with the older ones in various costumes the main players. Sorting out who they represent won't help to identify the place, but is interesting just the same.
I scoured a few book online about brickwork ( :P) but couldn't see the exact arrangement of bricks as appears along that right edge. I am guessing it might be unusual. :-\ I was hoping to find out what it is called so I can use it in google searches, in the hop that it may help identify the building.
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Good evening,
Little Lord Fauntleroy comes to mind, he on the right in smock and hat. His grandfather in top hat with his butler in bowler. Can't recall any other cast members.
The buttress is in no way big enough to be a church but could be the attached school or church hall. 9in across and approx. 18in out from wall at the bottom is fairly standard for that sort of size building.
John915
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I agree that this may not be a church building. I thought the window didn't look very church-like.
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I won't respond individually as it will take me all day, but thanks to everyone for their interest and input.
It's a shame we can't see more of the building but it looks like they are in some sort of walled off court yard, with a door and window behind the children.
It appears to be quite a lavish production, those costumes took some doing. Makes me wonder if it got a write up in the paper.
I think someone mentioned about the grounds not being landscaped in anyway. Perhaps this was a new building and the play was done to commemorate the completion/opening of the new school building. Is that a brick pallet they are sitting on? Did they have them in 1909? Wild stabs in the dark. ::)
Not sure if I mentioned, but the photo has a postcard back. I don't know if that is significant (as to the reason why was it produced in that format) but it might be to someone.
Caz
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Not sure if I mentioned, but the photo has a postcard back. I don't know if that is significant (as to the reason why was it produced in that format) but it might be to someone.
I have a number of old family "snaps" which have postcard style backs, I think it was quite common when prints were made as people often wanted to send them to friends and relatives. Postcards were the cheapest postal rates, putting card in envelope and sealing it was more expensive. No first and second class in those days.
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Not sure if I mentioned, but the photo has a postcard back. I don't know if that is significant (as to the reason why was it produced in that format) but it might be to someone.
I have a number of old family "snaps" which have postcard style backs, I think it was quite common when prints were made as people often wanted to send them to friends and relatives. Postcards were the cheapest postal rates, putting card in envelope and sealing it was more expensive. No first and second class in those days.
So presumably it might be safe to assume that the original owner had the photo because their child was one of the cast, but then we all know what happens when you assume! ::) ;D
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Cazza I haven't read through all the posts so this might have been covered.
The thought that a woman teacher couldn't be married.
She could teach if she was a widow.
A quick look at the 1911 census shows one such teacher named Richards living near Bath. I haven't looked at Wales where I suspect there could be more although perhaps not so many St Marys schools?
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A posed photo taken before or after a play / pageant (possibly to celebrate a particular event) would be organised by the school. Then parents would order one or more copies for themselves to keep or post to relatives. I suspect Mrs Richards was the mother of one of the children and this was the copy she had ordered and the annotation was written by the teacher or school administrator who had the task of matching orders against the copies when the prints were received back from the photographer.
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It's difficult to find anything better than the plausible speculation of mosiefish.John Richards was head teacher at Watton at Stone in 1909 and presumably would have had his own children,including one who was a student teacher,at the school.She was approx 15 in 1909 ,so unless "Mrs" is a form of address for any female teacher,it could possibly refer to his wife,who may have acted as administrator(?)
It is also of course more or less contemporary with some of the other postcards relating to Watton at Stone,with Hilda Penn being of an age to attend,and is from the same "lot".
Regards
Roger
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It's difficult to find anything better than the plausible speculation of mosiefish.John Richards was head teacher at Watton at Stone in 1909 and presumably would have had his own children,including one who was a student teacher,at the school.She was approx 15 in 1909 ,so unless "Mrs" is a form of address for any female teacher,it could possibly refer to his wife,who may have acted as administrator(?)
It is also of course more or less contemporary with some of the other postcards relating to Watton at Stone,with Hilda Penn being of an age to attend,and is from the same "lot".
Regards
Roger
And the original school buildings no longer appear to exist sadly. http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=17&lat=51.8569&lon=-0.1122&layers=171&right=BingHyb
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The thought that a woman teacher couldn't be married.
She could teach if she was a widow.
I have a family where the husband is a schoolmaster, the wife is a schoolmistress and they have a tribe of children, so it obviously can happen that a married woman can be a schoolteacher.
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The marriage bar in the UK wasn't abolished until the 1944 Education Act. However different authorities applied different rules, so perhaps if there was a shortage of male teachers, a married woman would be allowed to continue.
However, in the case of this photo, there is no woman present, so I think, as suggested, the Mrs Richards referred to, was the owner of the photo.
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Good call Lizzie...you might be on to something there.
Carol
But Watton at Stone church is flint not brick and it's dedicated to st Andrew and St Mary.
I think it just might be a coincidence
It could be the old school though. Unfortunately it was demolished in 1980 and I cannot find a photo of it. The St Andrew bit wasn't added until early 19th C so maybe even a hundred years later it was still known as St Marys.
I've searched every which way but can find no picture of the original school
Jan
That's a brilliant map site Kay99
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This is it Janan:
http://www.francisfrith.com/watton-at-stone/watton-at-stone-church-of-st-andrew-and-st-mary-c1955_w292004
Carol
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I've just discovered that the Watton at Stone school log books are at FindMyPast. However, I've just trawled through 1909, and can't find any reference to children's performances or the like - mainly notes on attendances, colds, flu etc.
However, there was a brief note at the end of 1894: "As the newly appointed mistress does not commence her duties until Wed. P.J. Stoten (?) and Mrs Richards have managed the Infants."
On the other hand, I haven't come across anything to suggest that the school was ever known as St Mary's School - the log book has Watton National Boys' School on the title page (though by 1909 there were girls there as well).
I have come across a few references to the Parish Room (shown on the large scale map mentioned above) - this was next to the school on School Lane, and is apparently now converted to cottages - see p.20 of the Parish Council's guide at http://www.watton-pc.org.uk/files/web_guide_full.pdf
This all makes me wonder if it was actually a church event (hence "St Mary's"), which might have taken place in the Parish Room. (Or maybe in the school if they borrowed it for the occasion.)
Arthur
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This is it Janan:
http://www.francisfrith.com/watton-at-stone/watton-at-stone-church-of-st-andrew-and-st-mary-c1955_w292004
Carol
Sorry for confusing you Carol, I meant I couldn't find a picture of the old school
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I've just discovered that the Watton at Stone school log books are at FindMyPast. However, I've just trawled through 1909, and can't find any reference to children's performances or the like - mainly notes on attendances, colds, flu etc.
However, there was a brief note at the end of 1894: "As the newly appointed mistress does not commence her duties until Wed. P.J. Stoten (?) and Mrs Richards have managed the Infants."
On the other hand, I haven't come across anything to suggest that the school was ever known as St Mary's School - the log book has Watton National Boys' School on the title page (though by 1909 there were girls there as well).
I have come across a few references to the Parish Room (shown on the large scale map mentioned above) - this was next to the school on School Lane, and is apparently now converted to cottages - see p.20 of the Parish Council's guide at http://www.watton-pc.org.uk/files/web_guide_full.pdf
This all makes me wonder if it was actually a church event (hence "St Mary's"), which might have taken place in the Parish Room. (Or maybe in the school if they borrowed it for the occasion.)
Arthur
Excellent piece of detective work Arthur and must be relevant...I have been trawling through FindMyPast newspapers this afternoon and found only one article that may be relevant following on from Jan's earlier messages about Watton School. From the Hertford Mercury and reformer dated Oct 27, 1939
Carol
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However, there was a brief note at the end of 1894: "As the newly appointed mistress does not commence her duties until Wed. P.J. Stoten (?) and Mrs Richards have managed the Infants."
That would make sense, if read in conjunction with the article Carol found. Mr Richard's wife stepped in to help out with the Infants until the new teacher was available. She may not have been a qualified teacher.
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My OH's grandfather was headmaster of a local village school from about 1921. There was one other qualified teacher and OH's grandmother (not a qualified teacher) taught sewing, cookery etc.
Pat
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It wouldn't be Empire Day would it?
Secondly, Will someone send a PM to "Mike in Cumbria" please? I seem to recall that he is an expert on bricks and building blocks.
I learn something new about myself every day. It's rather like having super-powers and not yet being aware of them.
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Having looked at the old parish room in Watton (now converted to housing) on Streetview it does bear strong similarities to the WAI: the shape of the chimney could be the buttress with the original windows higher as indicated by the new brickwork above the new ones. No door or indication there was one and the brickwork doesn't match up
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8563974,-0.1109793,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srfJNpMetvbufAv0rcee00w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
So I don't think they are gathered outside the parish room but do wonder if it is a village hall, newly constructed and they are celebrating the opening as Cazza has already suggested.
Here is Slip End village hall built 1909 again remarkably similar to WAI
https://www.hallshire.com/halls/view/1841/slip-end-village-hall
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It wouldn't be Empire Day would it?
Secondly, Will someone send a PM to "Mike in Cumbria" please? I seem to recall that he is an expert on bricks and building blocks.
I learn something new about myself every day. It's rather like having super-powers and not yet being aware of them.
No need to be so coy Mike. ;D ;D ;D
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Having looked at the old parish room in Watton (now converted to housing) on Streetview it does bear strong similarities to the WAI: the shape of the chimney could be the buttress with the original windows higher as indicated by the new brickwork above the new ones. No door or indication there was one and the brickwork doesn't match up
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8563974,-0.1109793,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srfJNpMetvbufAv0rcee00w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
So I don't think they are gathered outside the parish room but do wonder if it is a village hall, newly constructed and they are celebrating the opening as Cazza has already suggested.
Comparing the old map with the current satellite photo, it looks as though the wing extending northwards may have been lengthened when the Parish Room in School Lane was converted to cottages. This alteration may have obliterated what the photo shows, or alternatively, the limitations of Street View may mean that it just can't be seen from the road.
However, there are two other options in Watton. First, the Wesleyan (Methodist) Chapel, which was built in 1891; there are plenty of buttresses on that, but the windows don't look right to me. Second, according to p.27 of the parish guide at http://www.watton-pc.org.uk/files/web_guide_full.pdf a Parish Hall was built in 1911. The present Memorial Hall was built in the 1930s, and further renovated in the 1940s. The Parish Hall's location isn't given explicitly, but the 1923 map on the OS Old Maps site shows it in the same place on the High Street where the Memorial Hall now stands, so presumably the former Parish Hall was demolished to make way for the Memorial Hall.
Given that the photo seems to show something like a building site, I wonder if it's that the hall could have been completed (or officially opened) in 1911, but partially in use in 1909?
Arthur
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While looking at data for WAI 220,the "rectory",which I have updated today,I have found a record for Hilda Penn,(possibly mis-transcribed as Edward from the adjacent line),who is in Huntingdon school with James Purcells(sic) Penn,also possibly mis-transcribed,as guardian.The address for the guardian is correct as per the 1911 census for James and Charlotte(nee Aylott) Parcell.The admission is for 1911 rather than 1909 though.
The reason why I've included this here is that there is a St Mary's at Huntingdon.
Regards
Roger
Added: A further examination of the Hilda Penn record shows she was a visitor at Huntingdon for approx. two weeks only before returning to Watton at Stone
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Wow, lots to read on this thread as well. I'll have to get back to everyone tomorrow as I couldn't access this on the weekend! Thanks to everyone for their contributions so far.
Caz
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Good morning,
I may be wrong but this could be the building in question. It definitely has the correct buttresses and windows are close. It is now cottages but was it always look at the roof tile design.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8568999,-0.1103383,3a,75y,211.81h,71.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4FDyJEij3kdBK3RbGWqRfQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
It has had more built at the back at a later date as evidenced by the different roof colour and lack of roof tile design. If you look at earth view and take away the newer bits you would be left with 2 small courtyards. These could have had the buttresses and windows in the correct position relative to one another.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.856685,-0.1108631,3a,75y,50.24h,85.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9KVWI371lcJyEuP1F6NSVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
John915
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Do you know what the building was previously used for? I think you could be on the money here John!
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As well as some similarities I notice some differences:
The buttress is a slightly different shape.
The windows have different numbers of panes (though windows could have been replaced in the intervening years). I also get the impression that the window in Caz's photo is larger than those in the building you found John.
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Do you know what the building was previously used for? I think you could be on the money here John!
I think this is a description of the building John found, previously almshouses. It lists them as 98-110 High Street, I can see no. 98 on John's link.
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-356302-98-110-high-street-watton-at-stone-hertf#.V19JM2zmrIU
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Could the girl 3rd from right along the top row and the adult be related? Similar features to me.
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Just going back through old posts,
I thought this photo looked amazing. the first story that came to mind when I looked was A Christmas Carol. the boy (back row, Centre) looks as though he's dressed as Ebenezer Scrooge in his pyjamas and night gown, as well as the hat. all of the talk of the top hat also made me think of the characters from A Christmas carol.
The boy who looks like he's wearing beads could be wearing the 'chains of Jacob Marley's ghost. the boy next to him with the hood could be the ghost of yet to come. and any one of the girls in the top left in white holding the stars could be the ghost of christmas past.
I know this post is old, but let me know if this piques anybodies interest in this photo again.
I really love these photo recognition posts. I'd love for there to be a dedicated forum just on photo recognition that is separate from handwriting recognition.
Shaun
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You'd have my vote Shaun.
I'd love a seperate thread on photo recognition. I've thoroughly enjoyed some of the WAI threads, even if I'd absolutely no idea where the photo was taken.
claire
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who's in charge around here to ask? lol
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Not necessarily of any help in identifying location but in regard to married women teaching. My grandmother was a teacher and married in 1935. She went back to teaching in 1945 ish, when my father was old enough for school. I presume it was no longer 'illegal' or maybe to do with shortages after the war, but my father told me her employment was highly disapproved of among the local community :)
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Nice to revisit a familiar place, even if we don't know where it was. But if it was Watton at Stone, does this page about the cricket club help -
http://www.hertsmemories.org.uk/content/herts-history/leisure/sports/watton-at-stone-cricket-club
There's an image of some records from 1909, showing a J. Richards as opening bat. Also a team picture from the early 1900s - is our chap in it? (The cutting about his retirement at reply #58 suggests he was in the village about 1889-1925.)
However, if he retired at the normal sort of age, he'd probably be in his late 40s in 1909 (did anyone get an age off the census?), and I think the chap in the photo looks younger than that.
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I love the WAI pictures too. I think a separate section would be great
Chris
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I agree about a separate section, but it might also be useful to have a subsection for completed topics (as in the county look-up boards), so that it's easier to find the ones that haven't been solved yet.
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I have a feeling I won"t be able to resist looking back over some of the unsolved WAIs......
Regards
Roger
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Splitting photo recognition and handwriting deciphering into different boards is a good idea but could get complicated - sometimes there is crossover with a photo dating request and some writing on the back of the photo, and you wouldn't want the same photo posted on two boards. :)
There are different disciplines involved in handwriting deciphering, dating of old photos, and identifying locations .... so separate boards could work. :)
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The new board could actually be called 'Where am I?" ;D