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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: okkool on Sunday 19 June 16 19:36 BST (UK)
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Just started and already a problem & a question. This will has a latin title I can't make out. second word looks like mamves
secondly on the second line is a symbol I interpret as a missing letter. My question is it for a single letter only or can it mean multiple letters (I notice the symbol reappears several times throughout the will)
I transcibe "ordayne, co(n)stytute & make thys my"
Brian
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I think the first word could be Emanuel, but I’m unsure of its purpose there. Is this a register will (court copy), or an original will?
The contraction mark that you’ve flagged up can indicate any number of letters omitted, but n and m are common. I agree with your transcription for the second clip.
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Bookbox
Since there is no signatures on the will or inventory I would say a this is a court copy.
Thanks for the incite on the contraction mark. I was kind of hoping different marks had different meanings. Other marks in will are
Brian
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Bookbox
I did a sample of wills found on Findmypast from the same period and place and found this. Well done sir.
Brian
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In that case, it's likely to be part of the court's filing system -- either the name of the official who dealt with the probate, or the name of the quire in which the will was filed.
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I was kind of hoping different marks had different meanings.
They do have different meanings, but these can be quite wide-ranging, and dependent on the habits of individual clerks.
Generally, a contraction (as flagged up in your first post) or suspension indicates something missing in the middle of a word. A superscript letter at the end of a word shows something has been omitted immediately before it, e.g. yt = th(a)t, wch = wh(i)ch, wth = w(i)th.
In your last clip above, the superscript 'backwards 3' indicates -er, -or, -ur etc. As it's at the end of the line, I suspect it's the first half of the word appu(r)tenances, with the remainder appearing on the next line.
Some of the examples on this page might help ...
http://paleo.anglo-norman.org/empfram.html (from the menu on the left, select Contractions)
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Thank you Bookbox for great explanation and for the reference page ( I have added it to my bookmarked references)
I will leave the Emanuel out of the transcription.
Brian
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Bookbox, it's interesting that the name John in Brian's cont 2.jpg extract bears a contraction mark. You may recall I had the same occur twice in a will from 1558 recently.
I wonder if should be transcribed as: Joh[n]n ?
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Bookbox, it's interesting that the name John in Brian's cont 2.jpg extract bears a contraction mark. You may recall I had the same occur twice in a will from 1558 recently.
I wonder if should be transcribed as: Joh[n]n ?
HD, yes, it's interesting, and I really don't know. I don't recall ever seeing Johnn spelled with two Ns in an English document of this period, though I know it's found in Scottish sources. I wonder if it could be some sort of hangover that reflects the double N in the Latin form Joannes?
In some cases, a contraction mark where nothing obvious has been omitted may be a flourish of penmanship. When transcribing, I tend to add a footnote acknowledging the mark and stating that its function is unclear. Admittedly that's a cop-out, but at least it alerts the reader to its presence, should anyone want to take another look!
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Bookbox & HD86
If I may join this conversation, I have noticed a spelling in a couple of old 16th/17th century birth records of John variant spelled "Johanis. Could the contraction be of that?
I had not noticed the Johnn spelling in the Midlands area before.
Brian
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Bookbox and Brian,
Thank you for your thoughts on the contracted John mystery. Like you, I can't recall a Johnn spelling in my C16th documents.
Brian, it's possible that it's a contraction of the Latinesque Johanis. But it seems odd. In the document which caused me to raise the matter (see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=748102.0) no other names appeared in Latinized form.
It occurred to me last night that maybe scribes trained predominantly on Latin in the first half of the C16th just did it out of habit formed from years of writing Joh-es etc. Then it quickly died out as English became predominant in official writing over the course of the century.
That thought is not much dissimilar to Bookbox's "hangover" suggestion above, I think.
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That thought is not much dissimilar to Bookbox's "hangover" suggestion above, I think.
Agreed, HD, but you phrase it rather more elegantly. :)
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Bookbox & HD86
A quick search through the will turns up "Joh()n my eldest son" once again with contraction and twice in the form below. Hangover is a plausible cause.
Brian
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Brian, thanks for posting more information on this.
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Hi there, I don't think I have the transcription right in the red sections
of Jesus christ my Savior Trustynge by his meryttes, & by hys bytter passion to have Remyss-
yon of my Synnes & to be inheritones off the kyngdome of heaven, And my bodye to be Buryed in the churche
yarde of nether whytaker My p(a)ryshe, Inprimis his this my will th(a)t John my eldeste sonne shall have, my dw-
ellinge house, and all buildyinges rs barnek, stables, oxehouse, whatsoev(er) they be nowe alreadye
Brian
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...netherwhyteker my p(ar)yshe, Inprimis hit ys my will... [= it is my will]
...all buildynges as barnes, stables...
The form of the final s on Inprimis, ys and barnes is unusual.
Also:
...& to be inheritoure off the kyngdome...
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Thanks for the corrections HD86, the inheritoure catch was a "duh, head slapper" because it was so obvious. I also found the "a" in "as" as funky as the S, hence the gibberish. I am still trying to get my head around the meaning of "all buildynges as barnes"
Thanks again Brian
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I am still trying to get my head around the meaning of "all buildynges as barnes"
Try reading it like this: ...all buildynges [such] as barnes, stables, oxehouse...
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Well that makes a lot more sense.
Thank you HD86
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I have been making some headway into this will. I have one abbrev. in this section I can't figure out. I think I have rest right but could you proof it to make sure.
the age off 21 yeres Excepte & alwayes reserved ffrom the Sayd John my eldest sonne & his
heyres ffoure closes off Landes & pastures w(i)th all & Singuler thappn tena(n)c(i)es called & knowne
by the name off Lyrchy Leasues Lyinge and beinge in netherwhyteker aforesayd off the w(i)th
ffoure closes, three off them lye upon the weast syde, off a lawne leadynge ffro(m) ov(er) whyteker
unto hurley, and the fourthe close lyethe upon the east syde off the sayd lawne, And alsos
Exceptynge And Reservynge ffrom the sayd John, my eldest sonne & his heyres, All the arable
lande w(i)th all & Singular their appurtena(n)ces Lyinge & beinge in netherwhyteker aforsayd in the
Brian
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...Synguler thappurtena(n)c(es) called... [= the appurtenances]
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aha it was one word, not two.
Thanks Hd86
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Hi Brian,
Just working on a few small suggestions for the text last posted:
...off the w(hi)ch
foure Closes, thre off them...
[= of the which]
Last word of the fifth line is alsoe.
In the last two visible or partially visible lines the word land(es) appears.
You have the first as lande. The last character is the -es brevigraph. It looks like an e but is the wrong way around for the e in this and most C16th documents. Also it runs some way below the line.
ADDED: See here: http://scriptorium.english.cam.ac.uk/handwriting/materials/alphabets/brevs.php
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Thanks for the corrections HD
I appreciate your time.
Brian
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In this section I have four words I can't make out.
and his heyres for ever when he shall come unto the age off 21 yeres, It(e)m hit ys my will & my
ul that marye my wyfe, shall have my house, barnes, stables, buildinges & all my wholle
groundes pastures, Leasues, And all man(ner) off profectes, com(m)on Lande & all & synguler thappur-
tena(n)ces nowe being, remaynynge, lyinge, & upteynynge therunto, untyll suche larosues
tyme, as my Sayd Sonnes John & thomas aforsaid shall come either off them unto the
age off 21 yeres kepynge her selfe wydowe, And then it ys my will when my son-
nes shall come to their full age ether off them of 21 yeares, that my wyfe shall have
thou halffe, off all my sayd house, houses, & buildynges, the whole profectes & en-y
thappurtenances durynge her naturall Lyffe, But yff it chaume, that she at any tyme
hearaftr doe marye then hit ys my will that she shall have, onely no more, but her
Brian
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...Itm hyt ys my ^wyll^ & my
nd that marye...
[= will & mind]
...remaynynge, lyinge, & ap(er)teynynge therunto, untyll suche lawful
tyme...
[the p in ap(er)teynynge is crossed, I believe.]
...the whole profectes & ev(er)y
thappurtenances...
...but yff it chaunce, that she...
Do you think profectes means profits or something else?
ADDED:
Just glanced over the rest of the text. The only thing to report is this section:
...that my wyfe shall have
thon halffe off all...
I think this should be read: the one halffe
It's possible that it is then, but his e is usually clearly formed, so my first suggestion is far more likely.
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Thanks for the assist HD86.
As per this clip, and others Ive found, the context does seem to suggest profits as likely meaning.
Wherfore the Kinges Majestie by His high wisdom and prudence muste take an order with theym therein and That after a gentle soarte and politique fation As They May perceyve His Grace fynally entendeth but the comon weale and Their profectes for men and They May be nobly do the King high service. 1536 GRAY to CRUMWELL
Brian
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Thanks Brian,
That's a useful reference. Profit derives from the Latin profectus.
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Lots of red ink to review.
hearaftr doe marye then hit ys my will that she shall have, onely no more, but her
thryd parte, p(ro)vyded alwayes that it ys my wyll and mynde that my wyfe marye shall not
cut doune, fell nor take no man(ner) off woodds unto her ffire, or otherwyse, tynsell necessary
and convenyente onelye excepte, ffor the maintenance off hedges, mou(n)des & enclosures
marye my wyfe shall have suche mete & co(n)venyente ffire Lyte, upon the one grou-
ndes called the Lyrchye Leasues & Co(m)mon lande lyinge in the thre feldes
called the thre wheleys as maye convenyently be spared and as hathe beme
ffro(m) tyme to tyme usgorlly & customably ffallen, makynge no wylfull waste in
Thanks Brian
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Some tricky ones here, Brian.
You have read thryd correctly. The meaning is thyrd [= third] p(ar)te, which was the customary share for a widow.
I also agree with your reading of t-y-n-s-e-l-l necessary. I am still puzzling over the meaning or interpretation of the first seven letters.
(In the same line it is woodde rather than woodds.)
...have suche mete [= meet: meaning = fitting, proper] & co(n)venyente ffire ?yte, upon the ov(er) grou
The missing letter I think is a b rather than an l. I concede that ffire lyte makes more immediate sense. Again the meaning is elusive.
...and as hathe benne [= been]
fro(m) tyme to tyme usually & customably ffallen...
ADDED: Regarding the word usually, it's not clear from the extract whether the loop in the area of the su belongs to this word or the line below. If the former, it is ushually.
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I did find use of the word Tynsell in this reference below. The context of rights to remove wood from a landholding is the same. Purely as a guess, it might refer to smaller wood like brush.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=5367AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=tynsell+necessary&source=bl&ots=sW11geGZ_4&sig=bxJr-cvTuKYdVob1iromqtCg26Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwrJy9vtfNAhWGLpQKHU4-Dm0Q6AEINTAI#v=onepage&q=tynsell%20necessary&f=false
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Thanks Hd86 for your insight. In this reference https://books.google.ca/books?id=eLICAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA225&lpg=PA225&dq=fire+byte+archaic&source=bl&ots=xZ1ZNprvKE&sig=8mFcKXfiLH9joVt0l0g24Mavy3c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwil8bjZy9fNAhUQ3WMKHY1oB7EQ6AEILjAD#v=onepage&q=fire%20byte%20archaic&f=false
byte - 1) a morsel, a bit 2) to cut, as a sword, or any instrument, as in "Ther was no knyfe, that wolde hym byte"
unfortunately this seems make even less sense than lyte. A word meaning fuel would make a lot more sense.
In this reference http://info.sjc.ox.ac.uk/forests/glossary.htm I found the following:
tynsell - common right to take wood, especially for fuel (see also ‘firebote’ and ‘estover’) (R 170)
tynsell wood - small firewood suitable for use in ovens (Ja, 304)
In the same reference
mete - (v) measure, (n) boundary as in ‘mere’, q.v. (R 168). A statute, 6 Edw 1, gives the crown rights over the metes and bounds of a forest, to be understood as applying to ‘metes inclusive, as ways, rivers, &c’, but not to ‘metes exclusive, as churches, churchyards, chapels, mills, houses, trees &c, which bound the forest, but are excluded from any jurisdiction’ [a distinction seemingly based in the statutory stipulation that forest metes and bounds must be ‘irremovable marks’, whereas the latter are removable]
That being said your conclusion of "meet" seems the right one.
Thanks again Brian
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It just occurred to me that if I read the passage "suche mete & co(n)venyente ffire byte, upon the ov(er) grou" as (such fit and convenient fire bit(s) upon the ground) then byte does make sense.
Brian
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Hi Brian,
You have found some useful references there.
I would say that our ffire byte is just a variant spelling of fire-bote; that is, the right of estover.
PS: I see you have posted along different lines as I wrote.
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Hd86
Well there you go, from nothing to two plausible meanings.
Brian
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Hello again, before I start the inventory, a couple of parts in need of review.
hn my eldest sonne, my waine tewes yockes and all the iron ware with
all suche rings beunenses as belonge unto husbandrye, It(e)m I geve and bequeath
unto my thre eldest daughters & lyrabreth anye and wyve svete to ev(er)y one of the
10 poundes, apeace to be payd when they shall come to the age off 21 yeres, and
also can you confirm that this a bequeath to the unborn:
yeres, And yff she dye I will that the said p(ar)te, shall remayne to the chyld that my wyffe goeth
w(i)th all. yff it doe lyve, It(e)m I give unto my sonne John a calffe, And it ys my will
that my wyfe shall kepe th(a)t untyll yt gave a calffe at the ffoote, Alsoe I geve and bequeath unto the
chylde thar my wyffe nowe goethe w(i)thall, a cowe when it shall come unto the age off 18 yeres
yf the said chylde doe lyve, to be set forthe ffor it, ffinallye I make marye my wyffe, my full
Brian
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From the first extract:
...All Suche implementes, as belonge...
...eldest daughters Elyzabeth amye and wynefrete, to ev(er)y one...
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Your transcript of the second extract is mostly accurate, except for the passages below. You are right that the section refers to a known but unborn child his wife was carrying at the time the will was made.
...that my wyfe shall kepe yt untyll yt have a calffe at the ffoote...
...the age off xij yeres... [12 rather than 18]
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My many thanks HD86.
I don't know why I didn't see the daughters names, though I knew them, except the record I had has Anne instead of amye. Although the source was someone else who transcribed this will some 20 years ago. no other evidence.
Just that insight made the transcription useful.
I think some of my problem is trying to transcribe in the evening, when my brain is tired, I made some silly errors. It is 10pm here.
I have a feeling I may come across some odd words in the inventory.
signing off, Brian
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I think I got this right but want to make sure the names are right. also a question on the use of "alias"?
I appoynte John Buyamoe, my father, Robarte Latte, John said son alias
Layslye and thomas Brookes, ov(er)seers thearoff when I desire to se thys my laste
wyll and testament truly p(er)formed gevynge unto ev(er)y one off them 12d a
peace ffor their (ex)pences Wytnes hear off Thomas Wylson,Kyt lull, John
Burton, thomas hall & Randle Worsley wryter hea(r)off w(i)th synors others
The inventorye off all the goodes and cattell whiche
weare thomas holyors off netherwhyteker late deceased
(a)praised & valued the 29 off Julye A(nn)o D(om)ini 1586 By foure
houese & substanciall menne, worthy credyt, Indyfferent-
lye & Elected and chosen, that is to saye Robarte Burton
waler butler, Thomas Hall and William hydson alias bayly
Thanks Brian
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Here's my view of the names in the first extract:
John Bryamor
my father
Robarte Bette [wouldn't completely rule out Belle]
John hidson alias Baylye
Thomas Brookes
Thomas Wylson
Ryc(hard) Bull [slight ? over surname]
John Barton
Thomas Hall
Randle Worsley
w(i)th Dyvers others [= diverse]
A couple of suggestions for the first extract:
Not when but whom I desire.
...ffor their peines [= pains]
I shall have to tackle the second extract later, if it's not done by someone else.
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Many thanks HD86, There were more errors than I had thought. Am I right in thinking that the original will would not have had as many abbreviations?
Brian
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From the second extract:
...honeste & Substanciall... [the t is directly under the loop of the long-s and obscured by the tail of the &]
I think the name is water butler. The t doesn't have much of a curved top (similar to that in hit on the previous page. An l would have a loop.
Possibly this means walter.
It's impossible to say which of the Original or Registered Will might have the more abbreviations. As I recall, most of the abbreviations are fairly standard, so might well appear in both versions.
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Hello again
Assuming I have the transcription right, the meaning of a few words escape me.
coverlinges - I am guessing it is the same as coverlets
broches - the only meaning I could find was a tool for enlarging holes. I am not sure this is right
mafflen - not a clue
Imrpiminis his app(ar)ell for hys bodye 13 4
Item eight bolstors and thre pyllowes 17 0
Item two fetherbeddes two matterses 10 13 4
Item syx cov(er)linges praysed 10 1
Item syx twyllyes and ffoure Blanketes 20 0
Item seven bedsteddes 7 0
Item eleven pearse off shetes 40 0
Item two pyllow beares and syx napkynnes 4 0
Item thre table clothes and thre towles 8 4
Item seven coffers 10 0
Item certen paynted clothes 5 0
Item one cubborde 6 8
Item one borde, one forme and ffoure cheres 3 4
Item thre pottes and one posnet foure pannes and one kettell 26 8
Item two basens off mafflen, two candlesteckes, one chafrondyshe & a skymm(er) 4 0
Item peuter praysed at 13 4
Item two broches, one peare off cobbordes one peare off pottehengles one ffire shovle
one landirone, one pear off tonges a ffryinge panne and a grydiro(n) 5 0
Item one ffatte, thre barrels and certen other wodden stuffe remaynynge w(i)thin
the house 20 0
Brian
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Hi Brian,
I agree that the coverlinges = coverlets, coverlids.
The two basens off masslen = basins containing maslin grain.
You have the spelling of broches correct, I think.
I'm not sure of the meaning either - it's listed with mostly fireplace items (with the exception of the cobbordes). Possibly it is some form of bench?
A couple of minor spelling suggestions - matryses, Aleven
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Thanks HD86
I had missed the spelling of eleven /aleven. maslin of course.
as for cobbordes, I found a reference to it as an alternative spelling of cobirons.
As for broches I will stick with "hole enlarging tool" unless something better comes along.
Brian
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Thanks Brian,
It's useful to know that a cubborde is a cupboard but a peare off cobbordes are two cobirons.
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The last of this inventory. I found a satisfactory meaning for all except below.
fflychynnes _ I assume this refers to a smaller flitch of bacon "literally flitch ends" can't find a reference
clevyse - I couldn't find a reference but it could be a very early reference to a clevis, ( a u shaped iron with a pin)
gered -don't know also check the valuation ( the slash I thought was a j)
nakardes - don't know
route - don't know, probably spelling error, should mean "a team"
Item two fflychynnes off bacon w(i)th butter and chese 10 0
Item thre strycke off malte 5 0
Item one stryke off wheate 3 4
Item ffoure bagges 2 0
Item one ploughe, one wayne, one peare of smale harowes, one oxharowe two tewes two peare
off clevyes one peare off ploughe irons, one cartrope, one muckforke, one muckhoke
thre yockes gered praysed at 26 8
Item two axes, two bylles, ffoure pyckforkes, two nakardes, one sythe, on spade
one shovle one hachet, one hand byll with certen other instrumentes belongyng to
husbandrye 10 0
Item certen blockes kyddes and wodde 10 0
Item haye and corne 10 0 0
Item two route oxen 5 13 4
Item two steres 5 0 0
Item ffyve kynne p(ray)sed at 10 0 0
Item ffoure weanynges and fyve yerlynges 7 0 0
Item two mares praysed at 3 0 0
Item syx swyne praysed at 20 0
Item geese and poltrye praysed at 5 0
Thanks Brian
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cleyves = clevis, connects plough to the animal's gear
gered = geared, with handles etc.
runte oxen = probably small or old oxen
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Regarding the fflychynnes off bacon, my Oxfordshire ancestors of this time and into the C17th always use a variant of the same word. I have not found one use of flitch, without some form of the -ing.
My opinion is that a flitch (or side) is the meaning. I may be wrong.
Agree with 26 shillings and eight pence for that red valuation.
I can't help with the nakardes, I'm afraid.
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Hello vrvt Thanks very much for your input. runt oxen makes perfect sense and thanks for confirming my clevis theory.
I also took another look at gered as geared and found this reference in The Works of the Gawain Poet: Sir Gawain and the Green Knight https://books.google.ca/books?id=6pfvAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT652&lpg=PT652&dq=gered+arrayed&source=bl&ots=9tVMrWG8eJ&sig=DEshH6uf_dNzeMFxnCqGEv0O0Ug&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR2J_vrOnNAhVYzWMKHeLWDTgQ6AEIJjAC#v=onepage&q=gered%20arrayed&f=false
gered - geared or arrayed out, dressed out
Thanks so much Brian
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HD86
Thanks for checking that valuation and the flitch clarification.
I will keep my eyes open for nakardes.
Brian