RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: Kevin MW on Wednesday 29 June 16 10:00 BST (UK)
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Hello there, am new to this, but have found out more in the last couple of days than in the last few decades, and come across new family members.. Thank you so much. I have got as far as discovering the names and dates and details of my grandfather F. E Wrench, and his second wife Alexandria Mallia. They were married in Alexandria in the 1920s and my father N.F. E Wrench was the result. I am now trying to find more specific details about Alexandra Mallia. As far as vague family knowledge goes, she was of Italian, (possibly Maltese) descent, and probably living in the Italian Enclave in Alexandria at that time. Documents so far relating to F E Wrench refer to her as "local"...how would I find out more? Any pointers would be very welcome. Thank you in advance! Kevin
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Was your grandfather in the British Armed Forces? either the Royal Navy or the Army?
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What a speedy reply!
Yes indeed, I understand he was a 2nd Lieutenant , and also served as a Canadian Mountie, before returning to Egypt in 1917 as a driver. I've gathered so much information so quickly but now want to find more history about my grandmother, who I only knew as a very small child when she came to the UK with my father in the 40's/50's.
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Wilfred Charles Wrench b 1901 Egypt - is he related ??
http://en.geneanet.org/fonds/individus/?size=10&ignore_each_patronyme=&ignore_each_prenom=&type_periode=between&exact_month=&exact_day=&exact_year=&sourcename=&nom=wrench&ignore_each_patronyme=&prenom=&prenom_operateur=or&ignore_each_prenom=&place__0__=&zonegeo__0__=Egypt&country__0__=EGY®ion__0__=&subregion__0__=&place__1__=&zonegeo__1__=&country__1__=®ion__1__=&subregion__1__=&place__2__=&zonegeo__2__=&country__2__=®ion__2__=&subregion__2__=&place__3__=&zonegeo__3__=&country__3__=®ion__3__=&subregion__3__=&place__4__=&zonegeo__4__=&country__4__=®ion__4__=&subregion__4__=&type_periode=between&from=&to=&exact_month=&exact_day=&exact_year=&go=1
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Which denomination would they have been in, do you know?
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I wonder if they paid for an announcement in the Cairo or Alexandria press at the time?
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It may be an idea to request the service records of F E Wrench, as he may have had to seek official permission to get married from his commanding Officer
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There is a lot of significant background information on this thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=750863.msg5990612#msg5990612
I would be worth asking if the person who initiated that thread has a copy of the marriage certificate and ask for the details. This should give you more background information about Alexandra Mallia.
Alternatively you could order it yourself from the GRO. The reference shown on the GRO Consular Index for 1921 - 1925 is Alexandria 16, 204. Please note that on the index the bride's christian name is Alexandra, not Alexandria.
There are more details about ordering an overseas/consular marriage certificate here
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#Overseas
Edit I see that Stan had already posted this GRO link on the other thread.
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Nice one Jen :D
From the 1881 census It would appear that Alexandra was born in Malta.
Edit...This is Alice as per 1891 census
Carol
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Her brother "F. J." per 1881 appears to be Frederick John Mallia.
He married Lizzie Hammett in West Ham in 1885, and was with her in Wanstead in later censuses.
He appears to have been in the leather trade, and all records show him as born in Malta c1859-60.
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From the 1881 census It would appear that Alexandria was born in Malta.
That's an interesting find :D If that's her, aged 20 in 1881, she was a good bit older than Frank, who was born in 1877 according to the other thread.
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The 1881 census entry shows M A Mallia as widowed.
Her husband Paul Mallia had died aged 43 on 24 June 1879 on board the P&O vessel Mongolia, of dysentery.
He was described as formerly of Southampton but late of 4 Dora Terrace, Buxton Rd, Stratford, Essex.
His widow Mary Anne Mallia of that address (which matches the 1881 census entry) was his sole executrix.
Estate under £800.
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A note of caution.....a quick 'google' shows that Mallia is a pretty common name in Malta. Hopefully this is the right family :-\
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Mmm...I'm not so sure it's the same family now unless Alexandra is Alice's Daughter.
Carol
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I met Kevin last week & have given him all the material I have. His grandfather is my great uncle :-) I am the person who started the other thread :-)
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As far as I know Frank Edward Wrench and Alice Emma Wrench were C of E.
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There is a lot of significant background information on this thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=750863.msg5990612#msg5990612
I would be worth asking if the person who initiated that thread has a copy of the marriage certificate and ask for the details. This should give you more background information about Alexandra Mallia.
Alternatively you could order it yourself from the GRO. The reference shown on the GRO Consular Index for 1921 - 1925 is Alexandria 16, 204. Please note that on the index the bride's christian name is Alexandra, not Alexandria.
There are more details about ordering an overseas/consular marriage certificate here
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#Overseas
Edit I see that Stan had already posted this GRO link on the other thread.
The lady's name was Alexandra, she and Frank married in Alexandria :-) It all gets very confusing :-)
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It may be an idea to request the service records of F E Wrench, as he may have had to seek official permission to get married from his commanding Officer
I've already pulled the service records at National Archives Kew, they proved very interesting.
I hadn't realised that people may have had to ask permission. I don't recall seeing any note to that effect in his records.
I've passed those on to Kevin recently.
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I wonder if they paid for an announcement in the Cairo or Alexandria press at the time?
From what we know, the marriage happened very quickly. Frank had received a telegram saying that his first wife Alice Emma Wrench had died (which later proved to be incorrect). I believe the telegram was sent some time in May from what I remember of the documents I've seen. Frank's marriage to Alexandra was in September of that year.
Would there have been time to post an announcement? How would we find newspapers in the area at that time?
From what I've read, the marriage was performed by the British Consulate. Was that normal? Would there be records of that?
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From what I've read, the marriage was performed by the British Consulate. Was that normal? Would there be records of that?
Please see my reply #7 on this thread :D
The marriage certificate can be obtained from the General Register office (GRO).
Alternatively you could order it yourself from the GRO. The reference shown on the GRO Consular Index for 1921 - 1925 is Alexandria 16, 204. Please note that on the index the bride's christian name is Alexandra, not Alexandria.
There are more details about ordering an overseas/consular marriage certificate here
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#Overseas
I don't think the marriage would not necessarily have taken place at the Consulate. The marriage took place somewhere in Alexandria, and was registered by the British Consul. Hence the marriage is on what are known as the Consular Indexes.
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Wow, I've just returned to this after finishing a work deadline, to see that so much further investigation has been taking place!
Thank you all for that amazing work!
Trying to sift through the information as I know virtually nothing about my grandmother or her family. A maltese nationality might very well fit, as there are stories of her mother, my great grandmother being Italian and marrying a man from Malta, but it could be that she was British.. I have't taken it all in yet!
Kevin
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I do think the marriage certificate should be your next move to see what additional information you can get about Alexandra.
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I do think the marriage certificate should be your next move to see what additional information you can get about Alexandra.
Thank you, I will look into it.
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Hello JenB,
Can I ask where you looked on the GRO site to find the GRO Consular index for 1921-25 and found the reference "Alexandria 16, 204"?
I will try to contact the GRO to ask a couple of questions before I order a marriage certificate of my grandparents, Alexandra and Frank. On the application form it asks for a marriage date..not sure if 1922 or 1923. Will the above reference be sufficient, would you know?
Thanks so much, Kevin Wrench
Alternatively you could order it yourself from the GRO. The reference shown on the GRO Consular Index for 1921 - 1925 is Alexandria 16, 204. Please note that on the index the bride's christian name is Alexandra, not Alexandria.
There are more details about ordering an overseas/consular marriage certificate here
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#Overseas
I don't think the marriage would not necessarily have taken place at the Consulate. The marriage took place somewhere in Alexandria, and was registered by the British Consul. Hence the marriage is on what are known as the Consular Indexes.
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Try searching for Roman Catholic or Christian churches in Alexandria in that time period.
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Kevin,
I didn't find the marriage on the GRO site, I found it on Findmypast.
There is no specific date on the index, which is headed 'GRO Consular Marriages, 1921, 1925, Vols 15 - 19.
The full reference given on the index is Alexandria, 16, 204, and the names given on the index are Alexandra Mallia and Frank E. Wrench.
I'm sure that if you call the GRO they will be able to advise you exactly how to go about purchasing the certificate, given that you don't have a specific year from the index.
Do please let us know who information you are able to glean from the certificate :)
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Thanks for that. I'll update as soon as i get the information.
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Try searching on a well know search engine for Christian Churches in Alexandria.
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Try searching on a well know search engine for Christian Churches in Alexandria.
Please explain to us all how doing that will reveal details about Alexandra, which is what Kevin wants to know?
The place where they married will be shown on the certificate.
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Try searching on a well know search engine for Christian Churches in Alexandria.
Please explain to us all how doing that will reveal details about Alexandra, which is what Kevin wants to know?
The place where they married will be shown on the certificate.
Exactly..................................... ::) ::)
Not sure what the point is of all these one liners ScouseBoy - perhaps it puts your post count up - doesn't seem to be any relevance sometimes.
Sandra
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Alexandria has and had a very big Christian congregation.
It may be possible to search a web site which has an index of marriages for the subject enquiry.
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Alexandria has and had a very big Christian congregation.
It may be possible to search a web site which has an index of marriages for the subject enquiry.
IF you find the web-site - put the link on ::)
Sandra
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Alexandria has and had a very big Christian congregation.
It may be possible to search a web site which has an index of marriages for the subject enquiry.
IF you find the web-site - put the link on ::)
Sandra
Yes, please do, we are waiting with bated breath.
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Try searching on a well know search engine for Christian Churches in Alexandria.
Please explain to us all how doing that will reveal details about Alexandra, which is what Kevin wants to know?
The place where they married will be shown on the certificate.
Exactly..................................... ::) ::)
Not sure what the point is of all these one liners ScouseBoy - perhaps it puts your post count up - doesn't seem to be any relevance sometimes.
Sandra
What makes you think that I may be concerned about my post count?
Perhaps The Times archives will have an announcement about the wedding or the birth of the son.
I have strong connections in Alexandria.
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I don't think the marriage would not necessarily have taken place at the Consulate. The marriage took place somewhere in Alexandria, and was registered by the British Consul. Hence the marriage is on what are known as the Consular Indexes.
What I find strange (as did Frank's solicitor in the court documents when Frank was sued) is that Frank registered with the Consulate when he first came back to Alexandria. Alice (my great aunt) was trying desperately to find him and had received information that he was in Alexandria. She wrote to the Consulate who then denied any knowledge of Frank's whereabouts.
Then after he received the telegram saying that Alice had died they then registered the marriage between Frank and Alexandra.
How can they, on one hand, know that he is there through his registration, deny that he is there to Alice, register Frank's marriage to Alexandra & then sue Frank for bigamy. It seems highly irregular/suspicious (Frank's solicitor made the suggestion that the Consulate should be sued for fraud, according to his comments in the court papers). Or is it just different departments not knowing what one hand is doing whilst the other is doing something else. Either way, Frank, Alice, Alexandra and the others where the ones who suffered.
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I have strong connections in Alexandria.
Perhaps they may be able to aid in research, in that case?
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ScouseBoy is partially correct. ScotlandsPeople hold ALL the Catholic records - not just for Scots - for:
Alexandria, Chaplaincy of English Forces 1899-1910
Cairo, Military Vicariate 1896-1945
Malta, Military Vicariate 1904 -1927
I did a check and no Wrench record.
I myself have been married twice in Egypt, although not as far back as the '20 and not military based. All foreigners are to be married in the Egyptian Gov office. They require you to get a 'No Impediment to Marriage' from your own consulate. You do not have to register your marriage with your own consulate.
Jamjar
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Thank you for saying that I am at least partially right. ;D