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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: ben170292 on Friday 01 July 16 13:22 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am trying to find information on Gladys Buckley Bruni (Gorman) parents and grandparents.
Gladys was born in 1902 in Kyneton, Victoria and has 2 last names recorded Bruni and Gorman.
She died in 1955 in Preston, Victoria.
He mother is Rose (Rosanna Gorman) and father is possibly John Bruni but I have seen it as Brune also.
I'm not sure if her parents were born in Australia or somewhere else.
I think Buckley could be from her mothers future husband but I'm not sure if that would change the names on a birth record.
Thanks for any help
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Can you transcribe exactly what the birth certificate says please.
Debra :)
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Hi Debra,
Sorry I don't actually have the certificate, I just have the record Number and details from the Victoria BDM #11577, their website is currently down for maintenance though.
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Did she have a brother, John V Bruni?
Jamjar
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I see that Rosanna married John BRUNE in 1888 so the reason that Gladys' birth is indexed under both surnames is because no father is named and at that time Rosanna was Rosanna BRUNE, formerly GORMAN. Such birth registrations are usually indexed like this so that you can find it regardless of which surname they later used. He is probably not the father of the child, and the inclusion of the name BUCKLEY would suggest that this was the father's name. Another child was born in 1904 also with the middle name recorded as BUCKLEY and no father named.
The 1888 marriage certificate will give places of birth, ages and parents' names for both John and Rosanna. However if Gladys is your ancestor then you will want the second marriage cert instead which I think is this one?
#8189
1905
BUCKLEY, Chas
BRUM, Rosanna
http://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/home/family+history/search+your+family+history/
Debra :)
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Hi Jamjar,
I don't have a John V Bruni but I have the following.
William John Bruni (1889-1963)
Christopher Anthony Bruni (1891-1954)
Alex Cluney Bruni (1895-)
Elizabeth Bruni (1896-)
Rose Bruni (1899-)
Amelia Lily Bruni (1900-1977) also listed as Gorman
Gerte Buckley Bruni (1904-) also as Gorman
Charles George Buckley (1907-1918)
Frederick Horatio Buckley (1910-)
Olga Loraine Buckley (1915-1916)
all of them born in Kyneton.
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The reason I asked was that there is a death notice for the son, aged 25, of Mr and Mrs J Bruni of East Preston 30 May 1941.
Jamjar
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WW1 enlistment
BRUNI Alexander : SERN 6961 : POB Yilden VIC : POE Melbourne VIC : NOK M Bruni Rose
(died 15 July 1917, UK)
From Commonwealth War Graves site -
Son of Rosanna BRUNI, of 28, Egremont St., North Fitzroy, Victoria, and the late Buckley BRUNI. Born at Keyneton.
BRUNI Christopher Anthony : SERN 2194 : POB Taradale VIC : POE Melbourne VIC : NOK M Buckley Rose
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I believe the surname of Rosanna's first husband was BRUNI and the BMD Index on cd has John's birthplace as TAGLIO which is possibly in Italy. Several others with that same surname have Italy or Switzerland as their birthplace. Rosanna birthplace was recorded as MYRNIONG.
In the Index for her second marriage birthplace was just VIC. The only Rose/Rosanna GORMAN close to her age was born at Bacchus Marsh in 1868 reg. 228, with father John Patrick and mother
Cath MCEVER aka McIVOR/McIVER. Myrniong is a short distance away from Bacchus Marsh.
Essie
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War records show a John Vincent Bruni married to Isabel Sophie. He was born 6 Jan 1916, Carlton Vic and living in Bruswick. There are photos of him. He appoints John Antonio Bruni of 21 Ethel Grove, East Preston as his Executor of his will.
Also, Clarence Charles Bruni war record with same father, born 1918.
There's a war record for Frederick Horatio, next of kin wife Emilie Louisa. Address: 398 Station St North Carlton.
Frederick Horatio - 3 July 1981 at Springvale - ashes collected.
Emilie Louisa - Cremated 21 Feb 1966 at Springvale - ashes collected.
Jamjar
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Have you seen this page?
http://australiansurnamesgroup.yuku.com/topic/3489/AITKEN#.V3Z755AmKrU
Jamjar
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Thanks for all the information.
If the father was a Buckley then why would he not have been listed on the Birth Cert?.
I think I will have to buy a copy of her Birth cert and Rose's marriage Cert
Could John V Bruni and Clarence have been from a second marriage of John Bruni (or a different John Bruni)? because Rose had a child with a Buckley in 1915.
there is a lot of information but it has all completely confused me with all the different names and stuff.
I have seen that forum, I tried to contact the original poster but so far they haven't replied, thats when I first found out Gladys wasn't listed as Buckley at birth.
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Yes, I was wondering if John V Senior was the first hubby of Rose, as its not a common name.
Do you have a marriage for Gerte?
Jamjar
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No I don't know anything about her marriage.
Is there another website for Victoria BDM?
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Is there another website for Victoria BDM?
Yes, ;D Debra posted it earlier :)
http://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/home/family+history/search+your+family+history/
Cheers, JM
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If the information on the Aiken website is correct, then this looks like Rosanna's folks:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154829406?searchTerm=%22John%20Patrick%20Gorman%22&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/7433493?searchTerm=%22John%20Patrick%20Gorman%22&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria
Jamjar
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No father was named on the certificate. Transcribed twice to the index. This is also done if the details of the registration are not clear. If you wish to purchase the birth certificate only use the number not the letter R
From my resource
GORMAN Gladys Buckley
Father Unknown Mother Rose GORMAN
At Kyneton 1902 Reg#11577R
BRUNI Gladys Buckley
Father Unknown Mother Rose GORMAN
At Kyneton 1902 Reg#11577R
Are you sure the VIC BDM is down for maintenance.
Doesn't give any message on this link
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
Cando
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Hi,
I am trying to find information on Gladys Buckley Bruni (Gorman) parents and grandparents.
Gladys was born in 1902 in Kyneton, Victoria and has 2 last names recorded Bruni and Gorman.
She died in 1955 in Preston, Victoria.
He mother is Rose (Rosanna Gorman) and father is possibly John Bruni but I have seen it as Brune also.
I'm not sure if her parents were born in Australia or somewhere else.
I think Buckley could be from her mothers future husband but I'm not sure if that would change the names on a birth record.
Thanks for any help
This is possibly the death of Rosanna's father.
Death
GORMAN John Patrick
Parents Unknown Born King [?Kings Co Ireland]
1878 73 Years Reg#7663
Rosanna's siblings
GORMAN James
Father John Patrick Mother Catherine McIVOR
At Mt Blackwood 1859 Reg#12491 Died at Myrniong 25 years 1884 Reg#2307
GORMAN Catherine
Father John Mother Catherine AYOURS
At Blackwood 1861 Reg#19756
GORMAN Jane
Father John Patrick Mother Catherine McIVER
At Blackwood 1864 Reg#13501
GORMAN Peter
Father John Patrick Mother Catherine McKAVER
At Pentland 1865 Reg#23063 Died aged 9 years 1875 Reg#8133
GORMAN George
Father John Patrick Mother Catharine HAVER
At Pentland 1872 Reg#25352
Any of the birth certificates would give you the ages, places of birth and marriage of the bride and groom.
Cando
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Births - and many with father unknown which usually indicates an illegitimate birth. The registrar would ask the birth informant the date of the marriage and often people lied to cover the circumstances of the child's birth however if no date was forthcoming the column would be left blank.
There is no marriage on the Vic index for Rose/Rosanna GORMAN to anyone prior to these births.
BRUNI William John
Father John Mother Rosanna GORMAN
At Kyneton 1889 Reg#32505
BRUNI Christopher
Father John Henry Mother Rosanna GORMAN
At Taradale 1891 Reg#7451
GORMAN Alexander Cluney
Father Unknown Mother Rosanna GORMAN
At Kyneton 1895 Reg#13355R
BRUNI Alexander Cluney
Father Unknown Mother Rosanna GORMAN
At Kyneton 1895 Reg#13355R
GORMAN Elizabeth
Father Unknown Mother Rose GORMAN
At Kyneton 1896 Reg#21151R
BRUNI Elizabeth
Father Unknown Mother Rose GORMAN
At Kyneton 1896 Reg#21151R
GORMAN Rose
Father Unknown Mother Rose BRUNI
At Kyneton 1899 Reg#4087R
BRUNI Rose
Father Unknown Mother Rose BRUNI
At Kyneton 1899 Reg#4087R
GORMAN Amelia Lily
Father Unknown Mother Rose GORMAN
At Kyneton 1900 Reg#20063R
BRUNI Amelia Lily
Father Unknown Mother Rose GORMAN
At Kyneton 1900 Reg#20063R
GORMAN Gertrude Buckley
Father Unknown Mother Rose GORMAN
At Kyneton 1904 Reg#19230R
BRUNI Gertrude Buckley
Father Unknown Mother Rose GORMAN
At Kyneton 1904 Reg#19230R
Cando
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GORMAN John Patrick 70 years
Hospital record 29 May 1878
Place [residence] Blackwood Road
Born Kings Co Status Married Occupation Farmer
How long in colony - 26 years Religion Roman Catholic
Ballarat Base Hospital Victoria admissions register 1856-1913 index.
Comment - Name of Recommender or remarks P Papenhagen.
Cando
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thanks again for all the info, It is greatly appreciated. this is my most confusing family I have tried researching.
so would I list John Bruni as the dad or don't list a dad?
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I know for a fact that on SA birth registrations for some illegitimate children the father's surname if known was part of the child's full name.
With Buckley included in the names of children before the BUCKLEY marriage it appears to me that Rosanna had clearly separated from John BRUNI. Rosanna was still legally named BRUNI until she remarried.
Essie
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"There is no marriage on the Vic index for Rose/Rosanna GORMAN to anyone prior to these births."
Cando, Rosanna Gorman married John Brune in 1888. Registration number 7465.
The first child was born in 1889.
Jamjar
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Deleted as repeated
Jamjar
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There is no marriage on the Vic index for Rose/Rosanna GORMAN to anyone prior to these births.
Only the first one
GORMAN Rosanna (born MYRNIONG)
BRUNE John (born TAGLIO)
Birth Place
Year 1888
Reg 7465
Sue
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Death notice for a sister of Rose BRUNI dated 1904, 23 Nov. She was the daughter of Mrs Catherine GORMAN of Bacchus Marsh.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/189432527
Sue
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There is a sister in that listing for 'Mrs Brunie' of Kyneton, so assuming it's Rose then she was still married to John November 1904.
Jamjar
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Frederick Horatio's war record address:398 Station St, North Carlton
Catherine Theresa Wright death notice address: 371 Station St, North Carlton
Jamjar
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Death notice for a sister of Rose BRUNI dated 1904, 23 Nov. She was the daughter of Mrs Catherine GORMAN of Bacchus Marsh.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/189432527
Sue
There is a sister in that listing for 'Mrs Brunie' of Kyneton, so assuming it's Rose then she was still married to John November 1904.
Jamjar
Yes,The notice was for the death of a sister of Rose BRUNI as posted.
Here is a death notice for Catherine GORMAN, the mother.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206252564
ADDING
The death registration-
GORMAN Catherine
Father Unknown
Mother Unknown UNKNOWN
Death Place BALLT
Age 100
Year 1923
Reg 13328
Sue
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Death notice for a sister of Rose BRUNI dated 1904, 23 Nov. She was the daughter of Mrs Catherine GORMAN of Bacchus Marsh.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/189432527
Sue
There is a sister in that listing for 'Mrs Brunie' of Kyneton, so assuming it's Rose then she was still married to John November 1904.
Jamjar
Yes,The notice was for the death of a sister of Rose BRUNI as posted.
Here is a death notice for Catherine GORMAN, the mother.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206252564
ADDING
The death registration-
GORMAN Catherine
Father Unknown
Mother Unknown UNKNOWN
Death Place BALLT
Age 100
Year 1923
Reg 13328
Sue
Yes, I fully understood what you had written thanks.
My point was re: the 'Mrs Brunie' mentioned.
Jamjar
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Possibly John Patrick GORMAN had a disability. Mrs Gorman assaults her husband and is chastised. She had acquired the rights to the property and was “hard to live with”. Jan 1877.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/199825915
Sue
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Trove death notice - 13 June 1918 - for son Charles aged 11, parents Charles and Rose Buckley of Kyneton.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129611865?searchTerm=%22Rose%20Buckley%22&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria%7C%7C%7Cl-category=Family+Notices
Jamjar
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incorrect information deleted. ;D
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1926 Gerte Mary Buckley married Arthur Joseph Marriott Reg no 7990
1958 Death as Gertrude Mary Marriott, father Charles Daniel Buckley, Mother Rosanna Gorman. Reg no 6835
The only Arthur Joseph Marriott death between between 1926-1980. 1958 parents Robert Marriott ans Emma Simpson. Reg no 8498
Jamjar
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thanks for the newspaper articles, I have tried searching that website several times but can never find anything.
If Gerte's father is listed as Charles Buckley it makes me think that he is more likely the father of Gladys.
Just a side question, If I was to take a DNA test to see if Italian shows up is he a too far relative for it to show anything?, From what I have I don't have any Italian Ancestors, He would be my 3x Great Grandfather.
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It is possible that they just stated using the name of the second father, or that he adopted them.
I don't know if you do already, but be sure to enclose who you are looking for in inverted commas, eg "Charles Buckley"
Jamjar.
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If Gerte's father is listed as Charles Buckley it makes me think that he is more likely the father of Gladys.
I think you are placing too much concern with the identity of the father of Gladys and Gertrude.
However great the likelihood might seem,there is no reason to assume BUCKLEY was the father.
Family "facts" are lost, changed and covered up over the years and there is no legal requirement that the true birth father has to be listed on a death or marriage certificate. That is simply because parties involved do not always know the truth.
so would I list John Bruni as the dad or don't list a dad?
If you are trying to fill in your family tree chart, then the truthful and correct way to do it, is to put Unknown where that is what is on the certificate.
It would be a poor assumption if you were to enter something totally unverified and which you have no way to verify. Sad to say there are many poor online trees which do just this.
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I'm losing track of all that has gone before, so excuse if this is a repeat:
Rosanna Buckley death father's surname Gorman, mother Unknown 1924 Reg no 2517
Charles George Buckley death father Charles Daniel Buckley and mother Rose Bruni 1918 Reg 5493
His birth has mother as Rose Gorman 1907 Reg 28099
The only Charles husband that fits died 1919 Reg 18386
J.
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There is no marriage on the Vic index for Rose/Rosanna GORMAN to anyone prior to these births.
Silly me...I only searched on the Federation Index prior to the period the births were appearing to Rosanne :-[.
I haven't read all the posts but would certainly query the reason for a number of the births being listed with NO FATHER noted. My only comment is that possibly Mr BRUNI wasn't around and the local registrar may have known that.
Cheers
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Death notice Charles Buckley formerly of KYNETON.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203699410
Birth-
BUCKLEY Charles Daniel
Father Frederick Alex
Mother Catherine Mary MURTAGH
Birth Place KYNE
Year 1871
Reg Number: 9899
Death-
BUCKLEY Chas
Father Buckley Fred Alexia
Mother Katherine MERTO
Age 45
Death Place Melb W
Year 1919
Reg. 18386
Marriage, as listed by Deb above, was also listed with the surname BROWN for Rosanna
BUCKLEY Chas (born Kyneton)
BROWN Rosanna
Year 1905
Reg. 8189
Sue
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An earlier death of a brother of Charles named Gus BUCKLEY, lists the siblings which include a sister named GERTIE :D
ADDING the link
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129617692
Sue
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An earlier death of a brother of Charles named Gus BUCKLEY, lists the siblings which include a sister named GERTIE :D
ADDING the link
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129617692
Sue
That link goes to the Gorman court matter.
J.
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On the link posted by Sue
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129617692
Kyneton Guardian 9 Apr 1918 Pge#2
Death
The death is announced of Mr Gus Buckley, the respected son of Mrs F A Buckley formerly of Kyneton, and brother of Mr Charles Buckley of this town: Agnes (Sister Mary Joseph, of Chiltern) and Gertie, Maggie. May and Florrie Buckley.
The sad event occurred at his residence 100 Carlton street, Carlton, on the 4th inst.
Cando
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Australian Electoral Roll
1903, 1905, 1906
BRUNI Rosanna Simpson Street, Kyneton HD
BUCKLEY Charles Daniel Simpson Street, Kyneton Labourer
1909
BUCKLEY Charles Daniel Donnithorne Street, Kyneton Labourer
BUCKLEY Rosanna Simpson Street, Kyneton HD
1912, 1913
BUCKLEY Charles Daniel Market Street, Kyneton Labourer
BUCKLEY Rosanna Market Street, Kyneton HD
1915, 1916
BUCKLEY Charles Daniel Ebden Street, Kyneton Labourer
BUCKLEY Rosanna Market Street, Kyneton HD
1917
BUCKLEY Charles Daniel Mair Street, Kyneton Labourer
BUCKLEY Rosanna Mair Street, Kyneton HD
1919, 1924
BUCKLEY Rosanna 28 Egremont Street, Fitzroy HD
Cando
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http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
Rosanna's Will names her dau Elizabeth Cluney PRENDERGAST as sole executrix and she receives Rosanna's household effects, gold watch and brooch. Amelia Allie BUCKLEY receives a piano. Rosanna's house at 28 Egremont Street, Fitzroy is to be held in trust for her son Frederick Horatio BUCKLEY until he reaches the age of 21 years.
Rosanna signed the Will with her mark X.
The house today
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hxi/
Cando
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http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
Rosanna signed the Will with her mark X.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hxi/
Cando
It is an interesting observation.
The letters written from her in the WW1 files of her sons Alexander and Christopher Anthony BRUNI show a strong and accomplished hand. Perhaps she used a friend as scribe then. Or perhaps she was ill at the time of writing the will and not able to sign in full.
Sue
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I had a look at the divorce registers on Prov and I couldn't see a name I recognised for her or John.
I can't find her place of burial, either.
Jamjar
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Death
BUCKLEY Rosanna
Father GORMAN Mother Unknown
At Melbourne East 60 years 1924 Reg#2517
Often deaths registered at Melbourne East or East Melbourne were in a hospital.
Every possibility that Rosanna is buried at Melbourne General Cemetery as she doesn't appear at Fawkner and others database [now includes Footscray], or Springvale.
You can contact MGC to enquire if you wish
MGC [at] smct.org.au
Her place of burial will be on her death certificate.
Cando
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http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
Rosanna signed the Will with her mark X.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hxi/
Cando
It is an interesting observation.
The letters written from her in the WW1 files of her sons Alexander and Christopher Anthony BRUNI show a strong and accomplished hand. Perhaps she used a friend as scribe then. Or perhaps she was ill at the time of writing the will and not able to sign in full.
Sue
It is stated in the probate file - the reason for Rosanna signing with an X - she was unable to read and write. Will signed in 1920, four years prior to her death.
The house was in poor repair and mortgaged. It was sold for less than valued for probate.
Her funeral was conducted by R Robson of Brunswick Road, North Fitzroy and cost £27.5.6.
Cando
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Thanks again everyone for all the information, I didn't expect so many replies, but it is very appreciated.
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Did you notice on the attestation paper of Alexander, he names his father as A BRUNI, deceased.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=3132926&T=P&S=1
Suggest to me that his father name wasn't John but something else. Just because someone uses a given name on a marriage certificate doesn't mean it is correct.
Cando
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Cando, I think that is Alexander's own signature under father deceased. Possibly having to sign next to 'the answer to this question ....'
Jamjar
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I have found some information which I think may cast light on Rosanna's activities.
Though at this point it does not clarify the parentage of the children there are some hints ;)
I was interested in the names chosen for the children of Rosanna.
Particularly the name CLUNY/CLUNEY appearing on the birth registration of Alexander BRUNI.
A successful farmer named Alexander HARDIE , who owned a property named Cluny Farm at Kyneton, died in 1899 and left a detailed will. He appears to not have had his own children and was a widower aged 70 years.
A read of the document which is digitised reveals- .
100 pounds to his servant Charles BUCKLEY "(if he is still in my employ at my death.")
AND to his housekeeper Rosanna BRUNI the income from the investment (to be made by his trustees) of 1,600 pounds for the maintenance and support of her two children named Alexander Cluny Hardie BRUNI and Elizabeth Cluny Hardie BRUNI.
So we see Rosanna BRUNI and Charles BUCKLEY both employed by Alexander HARDIE
The names of her children named in this will,clearly reflecting an assosciation ;D with Alexander HARDIE.
Death
HARDIE Alex
Father Hardie Archd
Mother: Elizth MARSHALL
Age 70
Death Place: Kton
Year 1899
Reg. 2306
Sue
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Here is a death notice for the wife of Alexander HARDIE in 1895
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/88191272
Sue
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Did you notice on the attestation paper of Alexander, he names his father as A BRUNI, deceased.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=3132926&T=P&S=1
Suggest to me that his father name wasn't John but something else. Just because someone uses a given name on a marriage certificate doesn't mean it is correct.
Cando
Many Italians today use 'anglicised' nicknames so perhaps John did back then?
I did wonder if the "Antonio" who died in 1905 was John but he may have been the chap that married Mary JONAS in 1891.
Essie
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"A" also stands for Alexander ::)
Sue
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Super sleuthing Sue....as usual :)
So only the first two births were probably legally BRUNI's. And perhaps the local district registrar did know a thing or two ;)
Cando
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Super sleuthing Sue....as usual :)
So only the first two births were probably legally BRUNI's. And perhaps the local district registrar did know a thing or two ;)
Cando
;D
One tries not to read too much "between the lines" but the wife of Alexander HARDIE, Janet HARDIE, seems to be senior to Alexander by ten plus years if the ages at death are correct ::) and was 83 at death in 1895.
The two children mentioned in the will were registered in consecutive years 1895 and 1896.
ADDING
Janet HARDIE died in February,early in 1895.
HARDIE Janet
Father Lawson Alex
Mother Janet MORRIS
Age 83
Death Place B Msh
Year:1895
Reg. 129
Sue
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Did you notice on the attestation paper of Alexander, he names his father as A BRUNI, deceased.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=3132926&T=P&S=1
Suggest to me that his father name wasn't John but something else. Just because someone uses a given name on a marriage certificate doesn't mean it is correct.
Cando
Many Italians today use 'anglicised' nicknames so perhaps John did back then?
I did wonder if the "Antonio" who died in 1905 was John but he may have been the chap married Mary JONAS in 1891.
Essie
I agree this man could be of interest.
There obviously was some sort of impediment to the marriage of Charles BUCKLEY and Rose BRUNI, and I do not see a marriage for Charles BUCKLEY which could be the obstacle.
It is interesting that there was clearly an association between Charles BUCKLEY and Rosanna by 1899 when they are in the same man's employ, but no marriage till 1905 which is the year of the death of Antonio BRUNI.
Antonio's marriage to Mary JONAS in 1891 would in that case be bigamous.
Sue
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I don't think this snip has been noted before-
October 1891
J. H. BRUNI remanded at Ballarat with deserting his wife at Kyneton on 1st September 1891 .
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204317693
By 1901, Christopher BRUNI was a ward of the state and boarded out in Taradale which was where he was born.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201383682
A surprising note about where Alexander HARDIE got his large amount of money ;D. Sept 1896
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/199607625
Sue