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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Forfarian on Monday 04 July 16 13:38 BST (UK)
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I have come across a death registered in 'C Hill' in VIC. Would someone please be kind enough to tell me what this is an abbreviation of, and where it is? Thanks in anticipation.
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Hi,
Possibly ........
Clifton Hill north of Melbourne, Victoria.
Maggsie
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Thank you, Maggsie.
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Good thinking Maggsie :) But there may be other possibilities ...?
If you give us the name and the dod Forfarian, we may be able to find a will or a death notice or a burial or some other useful info
Ros
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If you give us the name and the dod Forfarian, we may be able to find a will or a death notice or a burial or some other useful info
William Burgess, 1908/9170, aged 48. The death index gives no parents' names, but I am looking for the son of George Burgess and Ann Gray, born 1861 in Scotland, who is described in his father's will, dated 1905, as a baker in Ballarat. The will also mentions his children but does not name them.
I have looked on Trove and in the Victoria probate index and found nothing, so a burial would seem to be the only possibility.
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Looking at the 1903 electoral roll ...
There is a William BURGESS, pastrycook, at 286 Spencer St, Melbourne. No others of that surname at the address. Women did have the right to vote but possibly hadn't registered.
Not much help sorry ...
Ros
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Buried at Fawkner
http://www.gmct.com.au/deceased-search.aspx
Inquest were routinely held for deaths in public institutions. May have died at Yarra Bend Asylum and quite often the information on those death certificates is scant.
Inquest Index
BURGESS William
1908 Ref#719
Cause: Broncho pneumonia
Cando
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The will also mentions his children but does not name them.
Can you just clarify for me please ;D
The children of whom are mentioned in the will of George?
George the father or William the son?
If it is the children of William you mean, is there any further description of them .....whereabouts? ....age?
Sue
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Cambrian Hill is on the outskirts of Ballarat!
bitzar
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I think Cando and others are on the right track re the abbreviation.
From 1902 to about 1909, it is common to see on the index entries something like-
Death Place: C Hill L Asy
(Clifton Hill Lunatic Asylum)
There were a great many of these .
Sue
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Cambrian Hill is on the outskirts of Ballarat!
bitzar
There was only one death for a William BURGESS in 1908 and as he is buried at Fawkner Memorial Park one would assume that he died at Clifton Hill not Cambrian Hill. Inquest supports my assumption that he may died at Yarra Bend Asylum aka Clifton Hill Lunatic Asylum.
His death certificate would have his place of death and there MAY other information such as his former occupation, place of birth and whether or not he was married and the number of children from the marriage.
You need to see the certificate.
Cando
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Yep... Clifton Hill was my first thought anyway. Just wanted to offer Cambrian Hill as a thought due to the fact that Ballarat was mentioned. ;D
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In one of my resources it suggests that CAMB is the abbreviation used for CAMBRIAN HILL and Clifton Hill can also be CLIF. Seems a lot is left to the transcribers.
Cando
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It could be Clifton Hill which is an eastern suburb of Melbourne.
cheers, marp
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Sorry, I don't seem to have responded to this question. Apologies, but better late than never I suppose.
The will also mentions his children but does not name them.
Can you just clarify for me please ;D
The children of whom are mentioned in the will of George?
George's legatees were his son William Burgess, baker, Ballarat, and his children; son John Burgess, blacksmith, Fraserburgh, and his children; son George Burgess, blacksmith, Sheffield, and his children; niece Georgina Cowie, 36 St Peter Street, Peterhead.
I have all the information I need about John and Georgina and their families. George Jr was in Sheffield and unmarried in 1901 but I have not found him in 1911. William was the only one who I know emigrated, but George Jr may also have left Britain.
If it is the children of William you mean, is there any further description of them .....whereabouts? ....age?
Nothing. their grandfather George's will is the only evidence I have of their existence. Though given that his brother George Jr was not married in 1901, it may be that George Sr was allowing for the birth of grandchildren yet unborn.
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It is possible to obtain records of patients at asylums from the Public record Office of Victoria (PROV). Many of these records are digitised.
It is likely that you are thinking of the Yarra Bend Lunatic Asylum, at Clifton Hill, Victoria which was established in 1848 and was the first such asylum built in Victoria.
marp
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Thank you.
I now have the inquest documents, which tell me quite a lot but nothing about where he lived before admission, his occupation and family situation. No wife is mentioned. One witness says he was visited by friends, and another says that he had no visitors.
His age is out by two years, and the inquest says he was born in Victoria, but either of these details could be an error.
Being unable to find the actual admission record in the online catalogue, I have e-mailed PROV to ask how to get access to it.
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Today's prize for an unhelpful response goes to .... PROV.
I e-mailed them to say that I was looking for the records of William Burgess and that I had found his inquest and from that knew that he was admitted to Yarra Bend Hospital for the Insane on 21 December 1905 and died there on 10 July 1908.
I told them that I had searched on their web site for information about admissions to Yarra Bend in their catalogue series VPRS 7456 but had failed to find the specific item.
Their response?
Thank you for your enquiry about mental health records. We hold archived records from institutions which are now closed. For patient records, it is useful to know: the asylum in which the person was a patient; the year and rough date of admission; and their last name.
Yes, I knew all that and had told them all those details.
Most records are not digitised and you will need to visit the North Melbourne Reading Room.
Easy peasy. I only live 12,000 miles away.
You can start your search by reading the information available online here:
http://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/health-and-welfare/mental-health-records-1849-1912 <http://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/health-and-welfare/mental-health-records-1849-1912>
Aye right. I told them I had already looked at their web site.
Inquest records
If a patient died in an institution an inquest was typically held into their death. For detailed information regarding inquests, please see:
http://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/inquests-and-other-coronial-records <http://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/inquests-and-other-coronial-records>
Note: the inquest record may have the admission date.
I had already told them that I had seen the inquest.
Closed Records
Patient records are subject to a 75 year closure period under the Public Records Act 1973 as they contain personal information. For records in this category, it is necessary to apply for access directly to the agency that created the records, in this case the Department of Human Services.
I had told them he died in 1908. It doesn't take a genius to work out that 1908 is over 100 years ago, never mind 75 years.
And to add insult to injury the very first line of their e-mail reads PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS RESPONSE EMAIL.
Did they actually bother to read my question at all?
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Well, with no thanks at all to PROV, I now have the hospital record of William Burgess, who was admitted to Yarra Vale Hospital on 21 December 1905.
The only problem is that according to the hospital record he was found dead on 28 May 1909. And that's not a slip of pen/brain because there are five entries in his hospital record after 10 July 1908, which is the date of death according to the inquest held on 11 July 1908 ???
And the only death certificate in 1909 is for a William *Bruce* Burgess, in 'Iwood', wherever that is.
Flummoxed.
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I have always had excellent service from PROV however I have never sent them an email requesting information. Did you use their online enquiry form?
Possibly you should have employed an accredited researcher. PROV does not provide a research service.
It was William Bruce BURGESS, 78 years, who died at Inglewood in 1909. Perhaps you intended to write only one death registration [not certificate] in 1909.
I can't comment on the hospital record however the Inquest Record clearly states he collapsed on 9 Jul 1908 and was put to bed and died at 2.50 am on 10 Jul 1908. The Inquest was held the same day 10 Jul 1908 not 11 Jul 1908 as you have stated.
Did you purchase an image of his death certificate from Vic BDM? If so what is the date of death on that document.
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I have always had excellent service from PROV however I have never sent them an email requesting information. Did you use their online enquiry form?
I did. What I found unsatisfactory was that their reply listed the information they required from me - but my initial enquiry contained all of that information already. It was as if they had not bothered to read what I said, and just fired off a standard letter.
PROV does not provide a research service.
I knew that. I was just hoping they would tell me where to look.
It was William Bruce BURGESS, 78 years, who died at Inglewood in 1909. Perhaps you intended to write only one death registration [not certificate] in 1909.
Yes, that is what is in the online index. As he is far too old to be the William Burgess I am interested in, I had discounted him, whether it's a registration or a certificate.
I can't comment on the hospital record however the Inquest Record clearly states he collapsed on 9 Jul 1908 and was put to bed and died at 2.50 am on 10 Jul 1908. The Inquest was held the same day 10 Jul 1908 not 11 Jul 1908 as you have stated.
I had already downloaded the inquest papers. The examination of the body was carried out on 10 July but the date on the covering document is 11 Juy.
Did you purchase an image of his death certificate from Vic BDM?
Not yet. But even if it gives a date of death it must be a date in 1908, and that can't explain the five later entries (31 July, 22 November, and 1 December 1908 and 25 and 28 May 1909) in his hospital record.
As I said. Flummoxed.
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As others have mentioned, there are two death registrations noted already. One is a death indexed at the Vic BDM online index (the newly modified one) as
Wm BURGESS, Unknown parents, and reference 9170/1908
and the other is
Wm Bruce BURGESS, Unknown parents, and reference 1887/1909
If you search for Wm BURGESS between 1900 and 1920, there are 17 possible deaths at that index.
It is entirely possible that both the 1908 death and the 1909 death are for patients at that Asylum, and that a clerk filing/updating the paperwork back in 1909 has simply presumed there was only the one patient by that surname, particularly as both had the same first name - Or if checking for a patient card to mark it up back in 1909 ... in strict alphabetical order, Wm BURGESS would come before Wm Bruce BURGESS and maybe that is why info that apparently would be for 'Bruce' in 1909 has found its way to the chap who died in 1908.
JM
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So is Iwood also a district where a death in Yarra Bend Hospital might be registered?
Is there a list anywhere of the resgistration districts in Victoria, with or without their assorted abbreviations?
I note with great disappointment that the age of the deceased is no longer shown when you click on the index entry. Also that it now requires you to specify a year of death range, which the old system didn't. Rather pointless when all you do is type in 1836 to 1988 and get the same range of records.
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I am not much chop re VIC but from Rchats Vic resources board looks like Lwood maybe Longwood.
There are threads on that new effort on the Vic BDM, it has messed up big time..
JM on e reader again.
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There are threads on that new effort on the Vic BDM, it has messed up big time..
And to think I prefixed my enquiry with a compliment saying that I thought the VIC BDM index was the best one anywhere - just before they messed it up ;)
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I now have the death certificate of William Burgess who died in 1908, and (as I feared) it adds precisely nothing to the information in the inquest and hospital records :(
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I note with great disappointment that the age of the deceased is no longer shown when you click on the index entry.
If it is important to your research to know the age at death of an individual ( up to 1985 )you should post a request here so that helpers can search older resources not available online for you.
This may be especially useful before you outlay for a downloaded certificate purchase.
The age is usually, but not always, available this way.
Sue
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Thank you, Sue, I will bear that in mind.
(Rhetorical question) Why on earth did they make that change?
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In the Will....is the place name very clearly "Ballarat"?
It is a distinctive place name but you might expect it to be "Ballarat, Victoria" or "Ballarat, Australia".
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It's a typed will and the exact wording is, "To my son William Burgess, baker in Ballarat, Australia, whom failing by his predeceasing me to his children equally among them share and share alike, one fourth ..." The will is dated 28 September 1905 but George did not die until 14 August 1922.
However I cannot assume that any children actually existed in 1905 because George left to his son John, who did have children (nine of them, plus one who died in infancy) by the time George made his will, one fourth of one fourth, the remaining three fourths of one fourth to go to John's children.
So I wonder if the wording of the will was to provide for William's children as yet unborn.
He also left a bequest to his son George Jr in exactly the same terms as to William. I know George Jr was still unmarried in 1901, but I have no idea what became of him after that.
So I still have no evidence that definitely links William Burgess, baker in Ballarat in 1905, to William Burgess, who died in Yarra Bend Hospital in 1908.
BTW the fourth fourth went to his half-sister's daughter - just in case anyone is wondering. I know I would have been :)
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"..28 September 1905 but George did not die until 14 August 1922. "
How old is George BURGESS when he made out a Will, 1905?
Why did he draw up a Will in 1905, several years before he died?
Was there a change in the circumstances of George BURGESS, or his beneficiaries, that might have caused George to draw up a Will?
Did George BURGESS die suddenly in 1922, or from chronic illness?
What did estate of George BURGESS consist of........money / property / personal items?....what would son William BURGESS inherit?
Is there a death notice in the newspaper for death of George BURGESS, 1922?
What is the last sighting you have of son William BURGESS, before he is named as baker, Ballarat at 1905?
Do you see him on a Census?
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I have a book named "The Church on Bakery Hill", first published just last year. It's about St Paul's Ballarat and it's place in the community!
Because of the book's title, and the name Burgess that you post, I got the book out and had a quick look. I found a man named "The Reverend Leslie Burgess" whose photo and also one with his wife, is also in the book! They had 5 children!
I just wondered if this Leslie Burgess was a relative of your's, and the fact that the area is called Bakery Hill, and you're looking for a baker, suggests to me that it could be a possibility! Anyway, I keep looking through the book, and I'll see if I can come up with any more!
I'm very lucky to have this book, it was kindly sent to me by the Melbourne Author Anne Doggett, an Australian who had written the book "A History of the Anglican Church in Melbourne", one or two of my Potter Irish relative's had come to Ballarat, all Anglican Clergymen! I was able to provide her with a lot of information about my Potters, and she kindly sent me a copy of the book!!
So I'm happy to check through the book again, more carefully, and if I find any more references to a Burgess Family, I'll let you know!
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"..28 September 1905 but George did not die until 14 August 1922. "
How old is George BURGESS when he made out a Will, 1905?
67
Why did he draw up a Will in 1905, several years before he died?
Presumably, at the age of 67, he thought it was prudent to do so.
Was there a change in the circumstances of George BURGESS, or his beneficiaries, that might have caused George to draw up a Will?
Not as far as I know. He must have retired at some point, but in 1911 he is still described a marine engineer, steam drifter, aged 70, which suggests that he had not retired by then.
Did George BURGESS die suddenly in 1922, or from chronic illness?
Cause of death was cerebral haemorrhage, so it was sudden, but he was was 84, so it could not have been unexpected.
What did estate of George BURGESS consist of........money / property / personal items?....what would son William BURGESS inherit?
Money and personal items, but no property.
Is there a death notice in the newspaper for death of George BURGESS, 1922?
I doubt it. I have certainly not found one.
What is the last sighting you have of son William BURGESS, before he is named as baker, Ballarat at 1905?
1881 census, as an apprentice baker in Aberdeen. I could of course have missed him in 1891 or 1901, and I have not found a record of him travelling to Australia.
Do you see him on a Census?
I see William in 1871 and 1881. I see George Sr in 1841, 1851, 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1911, but have not found him in 1891 or 1901. He may have been at sea, of course.
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I found a man named "The Reverend Leslie Burgess" whose photo and also one with his wife, is also in the book!
Thank you, that is very interesting.
George Sr's half-brother's wife was Jane Leslie, but I have accounted for all of her descendants who would have been old enough to be this Rev Leslie Burgess, and I cannot fit him in. There was a Leslie Burgess, born in 1871, but he died in infancy.
So I looked in Trove and found this in The Argus of 27 December 1944, "On December 25, at Ballarat, Miriam Ann, beloved wife of the late Lambert Burgess, loving mother of Rev Leslie Burgess (Ballarat) and Eric (Traralgon), aged 75 years". There are no Lamberts, no Miriams and no Erics in my Burgess tree. I did take a look at the VIC BDM index, and it seems that Lambert died in 1943, parents George Burgess and unknown Hested. The surname Hested is not recorded in any of the databases at Scotland's People, from which I conclude that it does not occur in Scotland. All my direct ancestors were born, brought up, brought up their families and died in Scotland. (Two couples broke the mould by getting married in England, but spent the remainder of their lives in Scotland.) So I am confident that the Rev Leslie Burgess is not related to me, or to William Burgess the baker in Ballarat.
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Is this your William, back from the colonies?
Peterhead Sentinel and General Advertiser for Buchan District 31 Mar 1906
William BURGESS......has opened that shop, so long advertised as a bakery establishment, at 20 Albion Street.....W. B. who has had a long experience in Colonial Bakery Establishments........
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Strewth! It could indeed be him. Thank you for that. I am gobsmacked.
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Well, if it was the same William Burgess, he didn't last long in Peterhead. He appears only in the 1906 Valuation Roll as tenant and occupier of a house at 20 Albion Street and a shop, bakehouse and store at 22 Albion Street. The proprietor in 1904, 1906 and 1907 was Barbara Cruickshank. So it looks as if William Burgess only rented the premises for about a year.
Also there is no record of his death in Scotland, unless his age is wildly out. So if he was George's son returned from Australia, he must have re-emigrated, and could have ended up anywhere.