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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) => Topic started by: zumaro on Saturday 09 July 16 16:41 BST (UK)
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I am a little lost as to how to proceed here - not helped by trying to track down a Smith! To an extent I have a lot of information about Andrew Smith. He was born 22 August 1814 in Prestonpans, son of Andrew Smith, a watchmaker and his wife Marjory Smith. He married Christian Kent on 5 January 1834, and then moved to Tranent, where he is listed in the 1841 and 1851 censuses as a watchmaker. I can't see him in trade lists for Tranent, although his father is clearly listed in them for Prestonpans, but the censuses, and his marriage certificate make it clear he is a watchmaker.
In the 1841 census the family is
Andrew Smith 27
Christian Smith 27
Andrew Smith 7
Jane Smith 4
Thomas Smith 2
Janet Ransay 15
whereas in 1851 Christian had died a few months earlier on the 20th March 1851, leaving father with a large family
Andrew Smith 36
Andrew Smith 16
Jane Alston Smith 13
Thomas Smith 11
Charles Smith 9
Robert Smith 6
Alexander Smith 3
What happens next in 1861 I am not sure. Andrew Smith Jr is married and living in Peebles, I think I have found Thomas in lodgings in Edinburgh, with his brother Charles visiting him, but the rest have disappeared off the map.
Searching through scotlandspeople I see no plausible entries for Andrew Smith's death registration between 1855 and 1920 in East Lothian. In short he seems to disappear - the family has fractured and I am not sure where he ends up.
Any suggestions on how to proceed and where to look would be appreciated.
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Hi zumaro,
I was searching for his obituary in the Scotsman, and came across the wife, Christian Kent's, language is very quaint,
" At Tranent on the 16th inst, after a protracted illness which she bore with Christian patience and resignation, Christian Kent, wife of Andrew Smith, watchmaker, much regretted. Friends at a distance will please accept this intimation."
Tom
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Scotlandspeople have a will or testament for Andrew Smith, Watchmaker, Prestonpans dated 23/10/1857
Isobel
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Also a death for an Andrew Smith in Prestonpans in 1857
Isobel
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Isobel, I wonder if the death (and will?) entry you found may be for Andrew Snr. From just the SP index, the death in 1857 is for an 82 year old Andrew Smith.
Monica :)
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You are right Monica. Didn't check the age.
Isobel
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Andrew may well have died between 1851 census and the start of official registration in 1855. There is a good and detailed family tree here on subs site http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/86056322/person/34538079616/facts
They show son Andrew b. 1835 marrying Helen Bertram in 1860 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTGN-D73. His marriage cert would hopefully show whether father Andrew Snr was still alive or deceased by 1860.
Monica
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Not clear who of the children you are linked to, zumaro. From the children showing in the censuses and up to the death of Christian Kent you have:
Andrew b. 1835 married Helen Bertram and died in 1909 in Peebles.
Jane Alstone b. 1837 - nothing further so far after 1851 census? Some possibilities though. In 1861 there is a domestic servant working in Edinburgh, Jane Smith born c. 1838 in Tranent.
Thomas Swanstone b. 1839 - moved down to England it seems http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=128979580
Charles Kent b. 1841 married Ellen Thomson and looks to have died in 1929 in Edinburgh.
Robert b. 1844 - nothing further so far after 1851 census?
Alexander b. 1847 - nothing further so far after 1851 census?
This all needs to be confirmed and verified through certficates etc....
Monica
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Hi All,
On that tree that you linked there was a marriage certificate image on line, it showed Andrew Smith Senior to be alive on 02 July 1860. Andrew Junior was an Excise Officer, address was at "Foot of Old Town, Peebles"
Tom
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Marriage cert. also shows Christian Kent to be alive and evidence indicates she died in 1851 so fact Andrew Snr is not shown as deceased may not be proof that he was still alive in 1860. He could certainly have died between 1851 and 1855 as Monica says and death may not therefore be recorded.
Isobel
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Hi Isobel,
Yes, you are correct, that could be the case. I had another look at the certificate and I note that the bride's father is marked as deceased, so it could be an omission by registrar.
However, the omission could be on Christian Kents only, Andrew Smith could still be alive. He may have went to stay with one of his kids or emigrated, he was still a young man when he was widowed.
I note the tree on Ancestry ran by a Denise, has put his death before 1861, so she never found a confirmed date either.
Tom
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Thanks everyone for all the work while I was asleep!
Tom - I would never had thought of looking at The Scotsman archives, and yet there is an obituary notice for Christian Kent. Like many of my family members I am named after her, so I guess I have a special interest in finding out more about her.
Andrew Smith Sr is definitely Andrew Smith Jr's father, and it is his will and death notice in 1857. I originally thought I had Andrew Jr's death notice too, until I noticed the age (which agreed very well with the birth date I already had for him). So more family history filled in but not the elusive Andrew Sr.
Monica - I am related to Andrew Smith Jr Jr who ends up in Peebles, and our family has quite a bit to go on with working out things from him on (including photos of his wife Helen, although not of him alas). I too am confused by the marriage certificate, that notates John Bertram to be deceased, but not Christian Smith, who most definitely is dead by that stage. So it seems to be an unreliable source of information for once, which is strange for a family of accountants and watchmakers not to be totally meticulous!
The Jane Smith link is maybe promising - two of her brothers seem to be in Edinburgh at the same time too. Trouble is unless she uses her more unusual middle name (which she never seems to again) it is so hard to verify a Jane Smith! Thomas Swanston and Charles Kent seem to literally use their middle names as part of their family name for the rest of their lives, which makes tracking them down much easier...
That being said the findagrave reference is magnificent thanks - it filled in lots of details about Thomas Swanston and his family. I never expected to see that - my searching is obviously not up to scratch! Even now I am not sure how you found it!
So thanks again - still not closer to finding Andrew Smith Jr, but lots of useful things to me so far. I am very grateful for everyones time and energy.
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Hi Zumaro,
Good morning to you, I think I have found 4 of the family in the 1871 census, all living together in Edinburgh. There are some things which are incorrect, but think maybe JaneAlston Smith is the housekeeper.
4 Panmure Place, Edinburgh 1871 Census
Head - Charles Robert? Smith -age 28 born 1843 Greenock?, E Lothian - Clerk
Brother - Robert B? Smith -age 25 born 1846 France?, E Lothian - Clerk
Brother - Alexander N ? Smith -age 22 born 1849 France?, E Lothian - Asst Grocer
Sister - Jone(sic) A Smith -age 31 born 1840 France?, E Lothian - housekeeper
Some placename and middle name errors, but first names and year of births fit in. No father with them, which is why I was looking for them.
Tom
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Hi Zumaro,
I think you have got Thomas and Charles in 1861 census, but will post here for others behalf.
3 YoungStreet, Edinburgh 1861 census
Lodger - Thomas Smith - age 22 born 1839 Tranent, Haddingtonshire - Stationary Clerk
Visitor - Charles Smith - age 19 born 1842 Tranent, Haddingtonshire - Journeyman Baker
Tom
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Tom, that 1871 census entry that you have found looks really promising. Well done for finding :) Hopefully the original image will help confirm the details.
If that is all of the children except for Andrew Jnr and Thomas, then they all survived up to then. In particular Robert and Alexander.
So it is still Jane, Robert and Alexander that need to be traced but likely now, from 1871 onwards...
Monica
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This does not help at all in determining where the missing are, but...
Could this needlepoint at auction http://needleprint.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/bright-day-at-brightwells-leominister.html be 'the' Jane Elston Smith from Tranent I wonder:
www.brightwells.com/Portals/7/catalogues/AE190510/lot0707-0.jpg
Also included is this note:
Stitched in silk and chenille this unfaded sampler with a half-timbered cottage, bears the thistle of Scotland and rose of England and was prabably stitched in 1884. It is Lot 707 in the sale and has an estimate of £150 - £200.
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Tom - brilliant work! I just downloaded the original image from Scotlandspeople, and it is absolutely them. The transcription in ancestry.com is only vaguely close, and the original is in actual fact easy to read (even without knowing what you want to see!).
I read the following
Charles Kent Smith - Head - unm - 28 - Clerk - E Lothian Tranent
Robert B Smith - Brother - " - 25 - Student in Arts - do do
Alexander N Smith - do - " 22 - Assistant Grocer - do do
Jane A Smith - Sister - " - 31 - Housekeeper - do do
Thomas Swanston is easy to trace, even if we don't know where he is in 1871, as he marries Elizabeth McNiven in 1872, and the findagrave entry fills out his death details - 1914 in Willesden, England. And Andrew is in Peebles with his wife and family.
If it is any use I always suspect that Alexander is Alexander Nimmo Smith for reasons that escape me, as I have no other confirmation of N as his middle initial beyond this listing.
Andrew Smith remains totally elusive - I am beginning to suspect that he is dead and gone by 1855. However I checked out a few OPR entries in Scotlandspeople of Andrew Smiths who died in Edinburgh from 1851 to 1854 and still see nothing. The trouble is you can't search on age in these old records, and it gets very expensive to check out every possibility in Scotland. Any other ideas where we might search?
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Monica - that needlepoint took my breath away. That is absolutely Jane Alston Smith's work. Look at the initials around the edge:
AS Andrew Smith
CK Christian Kent
AS Andrew Smith
TSS Thomas Swanston Smith
CKS Charles Kent Smith
RBS Robert B Smith (no idea what the B is for, but that is what the 1871 census says)
ANS Alexander N Smith (N for Nimmo?)
How did you find it!!
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Hi Zumaro,
Great to have it confirmed, shows how wrong Ancestry records can be.
I was just about to post about the initials around the needlepoint, when your post came in.
I am going to trying enlarge the images of the needlepoint, there are some other initials and names there, which are not too clear yet.
Tom
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I knew the initials would mean something...dohh, didn't connect with all their names :P
Given the number '84' embroidered and mentioned in the auction details, the possibility she was still alive then?
Monica
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Jumping about a bit.
With the confirmation of the N initial for Alexander, there is this potential 1901 census entry for him:
Alex N Smith 50 grocer b. Tranent
Mary Smith 40 b. Dundee
Peter Smith 18 Plumbers Apprentice b. Leith
Andrew Smith 16 Shirt Cutter Appentice b. Leith
Barbara Smith 12 b. Leith
Address: 218 Easter Road, Leith
Monica
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It is the right Alexander. See snippet below. Father Andrew still showing as not deceased. I am thinking now, he may not have been.
You could also check Charles' marriage to see what it said about his father perhaps.
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Hi Monica,
I think that the 1884 would make Jane about 44, and most likely still a spinster. I had tried to get marriage records for her, but it maybe that she stayed unmarried. However on the needlepoint, therein "Mr" above the AS, and "Mrs" above the CK, for father and mother. at lower right there is a"Mcraig" the "84" is at end of the poem.
The motto " No one shall provoke me with impunity." is English translation of the Scottish Royal motto, back to the Royal Stuarts, and "God and my right" is English translation of UK Monarch's motto "Dieu et Mon Droit"
Tom
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Hi Monica,
Strange that the MC shows Andrew Smith as still living, but his wife as deceased, and that is 1878. Could he be in an institution or something like that?
Tom
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Tom, I am beginging to think that he is still alive at this time of the marriages. We are up to 1878, and he is still not showing as deceased :-\
zumaro, if you do have access to A/try and their family trees, this is one for Alexander Nimmo Smith and wife Mary http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/86056322/person/34557872355/facts The have Christian Kent's maiden name wrong and show it as Reid (you can see why they got confused from the way it is written for her on the 1878 marriage cert.).
Monica
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The initial 'B' in Robert born c. 1844 stood for Bridges. Robert became a Church Minister. He married in Leith in 1885 to a Mary Ann Pringle. Father Andrew now showing as deceased.
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Robert and family in 1901. All the Smiths born in Cranshaws except for Robert Snr.:
Robert B Smith 57 Minister Of Cranshaws Parish b. Tranent
Mary Ann P Smith 42
Andrew R B Smith 14 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KS6B-D3F
Robert B Smith 12 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KS6B-D3N
Jane Smith 9 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTXT-XH2
Mary Smith 7
Christina H Smith 5
Richard H Smith 2
Donald D Smith 5 Months
Mary Swart 25 servant b. Haddington
Address: Cranshaws Manse, Cranshaws, Berwickshire
Robert died in 1914. From Wills & Testaments on SP (he died intestate):
Robert Bridges SMITH - 25/09/1914 REV. PARISH OF CRANSHAWS, COUNTY OF BERWICK, D. 14/07/1914 AT CRANSHAWS - DUNS SHERIFF COURT INVENTORIES - Ref SC60/41/49
Monica
PS: Some info here on Crawnshaws www.bordersfhs.org.uk/cranshaws.asp
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Hi Monica,
Found a DC for an Andrew Smith who died in Craiglockhart Poor House in 1880 but death is registered by an Assistant Governor, and none of the details tie in with the tree on Ancestry.
It is never easy.
Tom
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I am the first to put my hand up and say I obsess 8)
Jane was left, but think we have her now.
There is this marriage in Bath, England (there was another two names on the list, a Charles Norman and a Mercy Fear):
Jane Alston Smith and Donald Young
4th Qrt 1885
Bath Somerset
Vol. 5c and page 1070.
1891 in England has:
Donald Young 52 b. Schoolmaster and Superintendent, Ross and Cromarty, Scotland
Jane Alston Young 53 wife, Matron, b. East Lothian, Scotland
Mary Young 22
Donald Young 17
Cecilia Maud Young 14
John George Young 14
Margaret Alice Young 12
Address: Somersetshire Certified Industrial Home for Boys, Lyncombe and Widcombe, Somerset
With the young children there, looks like a second marriage for Donald Young and a first for Jane (?)
Monica
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Hi Tom
Yep, never easy.
Doesn't feel right that Andrew would die in a poorhouse (even if it was the hospital side of it). There looks to be money in the family. Unless there was a situation that we couldn't even guess at... :-\
Monica
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Re Jane and her marriage in 1885 to Donald Young, from the Bath Chronicle 12 Nov 1885:
Nov 11 at St Mark's Bath, by the Rev E J Wymess Whitaker, Vicar, Donald Young, Supt. Somersetshire Certified Industrial Home for Boys Bath to Jane Alston, only daughter of the late Andrew Smith, Esq. of Tranent and Tain, Scotland.
From the same newspaper, on 24 June 1916:
Deaths: Young, Jane Alston, at Kelston View, Saltford, at the age of 79.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
"of the late Andrew Smith, Esq. Tranent and Tain, Scotland"
Where does Tain come from? Is he been in Tain?
Tom
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Hi Monica,
He is on 1871 census in Tain as a watchmaker, and has remarried to a Margaret.
Tom.
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Wowsers! That is great news ;)
Can you post the entry please?
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Name: Andrew Smith
Age: 56
Estimated birth year: abt 1815
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Margaret Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Prestopaus, haddington
Registration Number: 82/1
Registration district: Tain Burgh
Civil Parish: Tain
Town: Tain
County: Ross and Cromarty
Address: Tower Street
Occupation: Watchmaker
ED: 3
Household schedule number: 13
LINE: 9
Roll: CSSCT1871_14
Household Members:
Name Age
Andrew Smith 56
Margaret Smith 58
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That has to be him, Tom!
Monica
Added: Possible marriage to a Margaret Stewart in Edinburgh 1856 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYMN-JJP
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And so it is:
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I am now at a loss for words! Thanks Tom and Monica - you have exceeded any expectations I had so far, that I am in awe at your skills. And researching Smiths as well - although luckily with odd middle names seemingly drawn out of a hat, and coming from a small town with not too many Smiths, both of which are proving useful.
Looking at scotlandspeople I have his death certificate for March 31st 1881 in Tain. Lists both his wives Christine Kent and Margaret Stewart. Death from heart disease (dropsy).
I thought it was odd to think of him dying poor - the family is middle class, and obviously close.
You guys have filled in the whole family - amazing work! And provided details like the obituary and the needlework which are quite moving to see. Thanks again!
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And of course, young Robert and Alexander are with their father and new wife in 1861 in Tain, R & C:
Andrew Smith 47 Watch Maker (master) b. Prestonpans
Margaret Smith 46 b. Kincardine, Ross-shire
Robert Smith 15 b. Tranent
Alexander Smith 12 b. Tranent
Enjoyed searching your family, Zumaro :)
Monica
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The pièce de résistance - everyone in their right place!
Again thanks - you guys are wonderful.
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Hi Monica and zumaro,
I really enjoyed that, Monica again coming up with the goods, just these extra 2 words "and Tain", it made all the difference. I was searching this post as well as watching the football. Thank goodness I had the search, because the football was not good.
Tom
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It was like a good detective show - far better than the football! Thanks Tom and Monica.
As an afterthought the verse on the needlepoint is by Robert Pollok, from a 10 book blank verse opus called The Course of Time. It was his last work and an international hit in the nineteenth century. I thought it might be Mcraig - that name is a little mysterious!
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Just as a follow up to this family, I was researching Andrew Smith's mother Marjory Smith, another elusive Smith, and what happened to her after her husband died in Prestonpans. I finally found her in North Berwick in the 1861 census, staying with her daughter Christian Smith, who had married Robert Bridges. So Andrew Smith named his son Robert Bridges Smith, after his sister's husband, which seems an unusual thing to do (or conversely Christian Smith's husband changed his name to that of Andrew Smith's son I guess).
I also had the chance to travel to Prestonpans in the last week, and in the Prestongrange church I found Andrew Smith's wife Christian Kent's grave. It was hard to find and in bad condition, but I cleaned it up with a scrubbing brush and some water, to rather good effect.
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/bg.ami.com/headstones/images/20160801/17704782.jpg)
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Thank you for the update, zumaro. Great to hear you have made such headway with it all.
Monica
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Hi Zumaro,
You have made great progress, thanks for the update.
Tom