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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: genealogiepay on Sunday 10 July 16 15:32 BST (UK)
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Help wanted:
William Arthur Pay Lived in SA from 1880-1998 and from 1901-1902. During this period he named himself Arthur William, William Arthur and simply Arthur.
other facts:
-fought in Boer War
-was married to Elizabeth Augusta untill she died in 1898
-was married to ?????? in 1901
-was a mining engineer
-lived in USA (1898-1901 and 1903-1910) and in South America after 1910
I would be very grateful if you have any info on my gg-father :D
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat
Where and when was he born. Do you have his marriage to Elizabeth Augusta.
You probably have this but for anyone trying to help children born to Arthur William & Elizabeth Augusta Pay in Beaconsfield, South Africa (from familysearch)
Arthur Alfred Arnold Pay bapt 18 June 1890
Ada May Pay bapt 27 May 1894
Violet Florence Pay bapt 20 April 1896.
Rosie
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Is it your online tree that shows him with mother Ada Emily (maiden name not given) and father William James or Charles William. :-\
Do you have a birth certificate for him or any of his siblings
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Hi Rosie,
Sorry for my, very, late reply.
I found out he was married to Elizabeth Augusta Wollenschlager. His mother was Ada Emily Lilian Smith, his father William James Pay. Finding details about WJ Pay is difficult because there are quite a few...
Cheers,
Robin
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Were the years he lived in S. Africa meant to be 1880-1898 rather than 1998?
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For anyone trying to help
1910 census - Manhattan, New York
Arthur Pay - age 46 -widowed - born England- both parents born England - citizenship 1895 -occ Mining engineer
No other family at the address
So he was born c 1854 in England :)
Where does the information that his parents were William James Pay & Ada Emily Lilian Smith come from. :-\
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Dear all,
Thanks for your help so far.
He lived in SA for 20 years, and returned during "Black Week" from the USA.
His son (Arthur Alfred Arnoldus) stayed in SA and married in 1915.
In USA (1901-1903 and later, he was married to a Wilhelmina. Found a Brazilian marriage doc of a AP and Guilhermina Delminde de Sosa from 1914...
Biggest mistery is where he died (in 1945). There's no Surinam DC, so perhaps he died somewhere else?
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Note:
His parents are mentioned on his birth certificate.
Father William James Pay (died between 1873 and 1881) 's origin is still a mistery...
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You have not previously mentioned his birth certificate, it may help us if you tell us when and where he was born
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I posted this on your thread a few years ago - is it your Arthur Pay
For anyone trying to help
1910 census - Manhattan, New York
Arthur Pay - age 46 -widowed - born England- both parents born England - citizenship 1895 -occ Mining engineer
No other family at the address
So he was born c 1854 in England :)
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Hello, just joining in from the other thread (thanks again Rosie for referring me here).
Robin, can you give us the details of the birth certificate you have showing father Arthur James Pay and mother Ada Emily Lilian Smith?
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If it's the (William) Arthur Pay mentioned by Rosie in NY in 1910 (born c 1864 rather than 1854), is this his birth ref?
PAY, WILLIAM ARTHUR Mother's Maiden Name SMITH
GRO Reference: 1865 D Quarter in
SAINT GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE
Volume 01A Page 283
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William Arthur Paye
Aged 5
Birth abt 1866
Son
Mother's name: Ada Paye
Born: Westminster, Middlesex, England
Parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical : St John
County/Island: London
Country: England
Reg district: Lambeth
Sub-reg district: Waterloo Road Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Schedule number: 104
Piece: 653
Folio: 12
Page Number: 18
Household:
Ada Paye 26
William Arthur Paye 5
Alfred Paye 3
Ada Paye 1
And this'll be them in the 1871. Ada shown as married, not widowed at this point
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And two Ancestry trees show Arthur James Pay dying in Thanet in Kent in 1874.....
But both trees have at least some reference to that source which always fills me with dread: "Ancestry Family Trees"
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And I see the 1874 death is of a child William James Pay aged 0.
So whenever he died, that one's not him.
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Do you have confirmation of your William Arthur Pay being in SA from 1880 for 20 years?
Because there is this 1881 census in London which seems to be the same family as in the 1871, with William A still present. Mother Ada is widowed this time.
Name: Ada C. Pay (I think this is a mistranscription, looks like Ada E)
Age: 36
Est birth year: abt 1845
Born: Holborn, Middlesex
Civil Parish: Marylebone
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 2 Browns Court
Widow
Occ: Dressmaker
Reg district: Marylebone
Sub reg district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Piece: 149
Folio: 81
Page Number: 26
Name Age
Ada C. Pay 36
Wilm.A. Pay 15
Alfred Pay 13
Hilda M. Pay 11
Florence Pay 7
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Have just turned up a copy of William Arthur's birth cert attached to Robin's tree on Ancestry.
22nd October 1865
7 Allington Street Pimlico
William Arthur Pay
Father William James Pay Barman at Licensed Victualler
Mother Ada Emily Pay formerly Smith
This matches the GRO ref I posted earlier
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And I see that Robin on Ancestry has also turned up a newspaper cutting from William Arthur's brother Alfred (mentioned on the censuses I've posted) which names his mother Ada who remarried a George Maling (I've found this, and the family in the 1891), and his siblings also in the censuses.
So I think we're after father William James mostly, are we Robin?
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I wonder if it's worthwhile getting the birth certificates of the last two children of William James Pay and Ada Smith Pay, Robin?
Those would at least give addresses of where the births took place and also the occupation of father William James Pay at the time of the births, which might then lead to tracking him down in the 1871 census which is - I think - the only certain way you'll get a place and date of birth for him.
Otherwise - as you've evidently already discovered - there are too many to pin down and the Deal birth in 1833 (where there's a christening record) can only be speculative.
Here's the references:
PAY, FLORENCE ELLEN Mother's maiden name SMITH
GRO Reference: 1873 S Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 523
PAY, ADA MARY Mother's maiden name SMITH
GRO Reference: 1870 J Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 316
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If it's the (William) Arthur Pay mentioned by Rosie in NY in 1910 (born c 1864 rather than 1854), is this his birth ref?
PAY, WILLIAM ARTHUR Mother's Maiden Name SMITH
GRO Reference: 1865 D Quarter in
SAINT GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE
Volume 01A Page 283
Whoops - Thanks for correcting me Igorstrav :)
.........................
Is it me as I can't see a marriage for Ada Smith and WJP. :-\
I am wondering if she was actually married to WJP ::) I am just posting this as I probably won't find it again ;D She gives her age/place of birth as c1844 Holborn on census.
1851 - HO107/1467 f485 p28
George Pay 34 occ Coachman bn Huntington, Sussex
Mary Pay age 42 bn Marylebone
George Pay age 14 bn Islington
Ellen Pay age 11 bn Whitechapel
Ada Emily Pay age 6 bn Holborn
Edward Smith (Nephew) age 3 bn Lambeth.
(George Pay married Mary Smith
30 Jul 1836 at Old Church,Saint Pancras,London)
In 1861 Ada E is possibly a servant
RG09/87 f79 p21
........
When she married in 1885 she named her father as George Smith.
She could be pretending to be married, she would not be the first to do that ::)
ADDED
I see that when she married in 1885 her father George Smith's occupation was a Coachman, the same as George Pay in 1851
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Have just turned up a copy of William Arthur's birth cert attached to Robin's tree on Ancestry.
22nd October 1865
7 Allington Street Pimlico
William Arthur Pay
Father William James Pay Barman at Licensed Victualler
Mother Ada Emily Pay formerly Smith
This matches the GRO ref I posted earlier
Who was the informant on this birth certificate
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Birth registration of daughter Edith (Maling)
EDITH ADA MALING Mothers maiden surname PAY
1885 Dec Quarter in PADDINGTON Volume 01A Page 70
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The William James Pay who you have born in Deal Kent
Baptised 23 Oct 1833 at Deal parents James & Mary
In 1851 he is living with his parents and his occupation is twine spinner.
In 1861 - RG9/ Piece 482 Folio 42 page 40 living at Chatham age 28 occ Rope Maker with wife Hester age 27 born Suffolk
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It looks as though Hester Pay may have married Richard Rose in 1866. (Sevenoaks reg district)
In 1871 she is at RG10 /906 f74 p30
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Have just turned up a copy of William Arthur's birth cert attached to Robin's tree on Ancestry.
22nd October 1865
7 Allington Street Pimlico
William Arthur Pay
Father William James Pay Barman at Licensed Victualler
Mother Ada Emily Pay formerly Smith
This matches the GRO ref I posted earlier
Who was the informant on this birth certificate
The informant was Ada E Pay, mother, of 7 Allington Street.
As previously mentioned, it might be helpful to get the birth certs of Ada Mary and Florence Ellen to see where the family was living, just to try and track down William James Pay in the 1871.
Otherwise, it will be a case of following all the possible William Pays (he may not have quoted his middle name) on the censuses - unless you think that the 1833 William James you've found in the 1851 and 1861 might be the right one, and left Hester for Ada? Bit of a change from rope maker to barman though.
Or - another thought following your great find of George Pay and his family and a very possible Ada - it might be a good idea to have another look at George Pay and his family in case Ada met (though apparently didn't marry) a relative, William James Pay.
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I am wondering if she was actually married to WJP ::) I am just posting this as I probably won't find it again ;D She gives her age/place of birth as c1844 Holborn on census.
1851 - HO107/1467 f485 p28
George Pay 34 occ Coachman bn Huntington, Sussex
Mary Pay age 42 bn Marylebone
George Pay age 14 bn Islington
Ellen Pay age 11 bn Whitechapel
Ada Emily Pay age 6 bn Holborn
Edward Smith (Nephew) age 3 bn Lambeth.
(George Pay married Mary Smith
30 Jul 1836 at Old Church,Saint Pancras,London)
In 1861 Ada E is possibly a servant
RG09/87 f79 p21
........
When she married in 1885 she named her father as George Smith.
She could be pretending to be married, she would not be the first to do that ::)
ADDED
I see that when she married in 1885 her father George Smith's occupation was a Coachman, the same as George Pay in 1851
I agree Rosie, that this Ada Emily Pay is indeed Ada Emily Smith - born (and christened) 1844 in Holborn, which matches the dob/pob for Ada Emily Smith Pay and her children.
Given her father George Pay married her mother Mary Smith as you say, I can't quite see why she would have taken her mother's maiden name as her own - she wasn't illegitimate (had two elder siblings who called themselves Pay).
I then wondered if her 'husband' William James Pay was related to her, and she therefore concealed the fact.
However, father George came from Funtington in Sussex (first time I'd heard of that) and I believe I've found all his siblings, children of Edward and Emily, who were all christened there. No sign of a William Pay in the family.
What other reason could there be for using her mother's name? Could it be that she was known as Ada Pay, and then a man appeared and she gave him her surname to appear married? So that William James was not a Pay at all?
And then when she married for the 'second' time to George Marling, she covered up the lie by calling her father George Smith, but otherwise giving the correct occupation for him?
Flights of fancy here.
Any other thoughts?
added
Although I see that Ada Emily Pay had an uncle, her mother's brother, called William James Smith?
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I am pleased we are thinking along the same lines. :)
When Ada Emily Pay's sister Ellen was baptised 9 Mar 1854 (born 1839) her parents were noted as George & Mary Pay - fathers occupation Coachman - abode 2 Browns Court. (St Mary, Bryanston Square)
In 1881 census Ada Emily Pay and the children William, Alfred, Ada & Florence are living at 2 Browns Court, (St Mary, Bryanston Square)
I have yet to locate that address on the 1861 & 1871 census but can't find George & Mary Pay either.
A lot of loose ends but I am sure that we are right and that Ada Emily Smith/Pay was not married to William James Pay.
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1871 Census: Browns Court is within London/St Marylebone/St Mary - District 13
But George and Mary Pay are not there at number 2 or any other number in the street so far as I can see.
Have not as yet found Browns Court in the 1861 - doesn't seem to be within London/St Marylebone/St Mary - although I have been wandering round an area of London which actually I know quite well, albeit in more recent times!
And no, I cannot find either George and Mary after their 1851 appearance, or indeed Ada and George Maling after the 1891 census.
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Thank you for looking :)
Could this be her death
Deaths Sep qtr 1924
Ada E Maling age 79
Bedford RD 3b 269
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Thank you for looking :)
Could this be her death
Deaths Sep qtr 1924
Ada E Maling age 79
Bedford RD 3b 269
Yes it could be her - that's tantalising, you'd think she'd be in Bedford with one of the children. Not William Arthur or Alfred, because they were busy being mining engineers abroad I should think, but perhaps one of the girls? I cannot see any definite marriages for them or any other census entries.
There are some possible Ada Emily Maling Electoral Register entries in 1919-1921 at Westmoreland Street, which is - so far as I can see - not very far away from where she's lived in London for most of her life.
But it still doesn't explain why she was born Ada Emily Pay and then called herself Ada Emily Smith when she didn't need to (or lie about her father's name) or - perhaps most importantly for Robin - explain WHO WAS WILLIAM JAMES PAY?? If indeed that was his name........
Looking forward to seeing what Robin will indeed say if he comes back to read all this. :o
PS not at all connected to my Pays who all come from Kent, but I have to say they've always been tricky with that particular surname, not least because people labour under this misapprehension that it's an unusual one. Not so. >:( :( ;)
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I've found Mary Smith Pay (George's wife) in the 1861, still shown as 'married' but George not with her.
She is with the Edward/Edwin Smith - nephew, born 1848 Lambeth - who was present with the family in the 1851.
9 Eastbourne Mews
Kensington
Sub-reg: St John Paddington
ED: 20
Piece: 11
Folio: 70
Page: 13
I also have a potential birth for Edwin in Lambeth in 1847 - no mother's maiden name. So presumably the child of one of Mary's sisters - I think she had three, Margaret, Eliza and Amelia.
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Thank you :D
There some more info from birth certificates from the children of William James and Ada Emily Lilian:
William Arthur Pay:22 oktober 1867, 7 Allingtonstreet, Ada Emily Pay formerly Smith, William James Pay (barman and licensed victualler)
Alfred Pay:14 july 1867, 8 Cau"s"ton street, Ada Emily Pay formerly Smith, William James Pay (Barman)
Florence Ellen Pay: 16 june 1873, 18 Brown Street, Ada Emily Pay formerly Smith, William Pay (Barman)
Ada Mary Pay: 2 march 1870, 7 Howley street/ York Road, Ada Emily Pay formerly Smith, William James Pay, (barman at public place)
Cheers (like my ggg dad probably said many, many times)!
Robin
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Was Ada the informant on all of those births or did William register any of them
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The only proof I have that WA Pay was in South Africa for 20 years was a letter from his brother Alfred in the LLoyds Weekly that he was looking for his mother Mrs Maling, his sisters Ada and Florence and his brother Arthur, a mining engineer, who was in SA for 20 years and last wrote from Prince Edward Gold fields. This as during the Boer War.
Also I found out a Arthur Pay (Arthur William, to confuse things) was married to Elisabeth Augusta Wollenschlager and had 3 kids: Ada Mary, Violet Florence and Arthur Alfred Arnoldus in South Africa.
Most likely AP lived in SA, moved to USA, came back during the Boer War, returned to the USA and ended up in Guyana and Surinam. It is said he died in 1945, but I cant find anything in Surinam newspapers or Archives ot this fact. There's a chance he died in USA, Guyana or a place I havent thought of yet. He was quite adventurous:-)
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Ada was the informant at all the occasions. William (James) was never present. Thnx IgorStav 8)
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Thank you :)
I note you refer to her as Ada Emily Lilian - where does the name Lilian get included
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Thank you for looking :)
Could this be her death
Deaths Sep qtr 1924
Ada E Maling age 79
Bedford RD 3b 269
Edith Ada Garner (nee Maling) and her husband Thomas Frederick Garner are living at 1 Canning Street, Bedford around this time :)
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The only proof I have that WA Pay was in South Africa for 20 years was a letter from his brother Alfred in the LLoyds Weekly that he was looking for his mother Mrs Maling, his sisters Ada and Florence and his brother Arthur, a mining engineer, who was in SA for 20 years and last wrote from Prince Edward Gold fields. This as during the Boer War.
That request appeared in Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper 04 July 1897 and states his mother lived in Cornwall Road, Notting Hill 8 years ago. It also says his brother joined the Mounted Police in S. Africa about either 15 or 18 years ago (copy is poor)
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Thank you for looking :)
Could this be her death
Deaths Sep qtr 1924
Ada E Maling age 79
Bedford RD 3b 269
Edith Ada Garner (nee Maling) and her husband Thomas Frederick Garner are living at 1 Canning Street, Bedford around this time :)
Excellent - just as I was hypothesising! :)
Re the mysterious William James Pay
- I've had not much success (not surprisingly) trying to find more members of Mary Smith Pay's family, including her brother William James Smith, and sisters.
- Given Robin says that WJP is a barman in the birth certs, perhaps a search in local streets round about where Ada Emily was living in the census might turn him up
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I have tried searching the 1871 census for London/ Surrey / Middlesex first name William occupation Barman - No results. I doubt he was a Licensed victualler as they would have been living on the premises.
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Have been thinking this through again.
What about the hypothesis that the father of Ada Pay's children 'William James' was unable to marry her, because - perhaps - he was already married.
So she registers the children correctly under her own unmarried name of Pay, but 'legitimises' them by suggesting that her own name is Smith, her mother's maiden name.
This would explain why she then marries subsequently under her name Pay, but makes up her father's name as George Smith to match everything else.
So as you suggest, Rosie, we are looking for a William James who is a barman in the right sort of area for the births.
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What is the source of the photo of WJP, do you have the original as that could help date it.
It would be nice to know what you think about our research on Ada.
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Don't think I mentioned for Robin the birth ref for Ada Emily Pay, which matches the 1871 and 1881 censuses which he has:
PAY, ADA EMILY MMN SMITH GRO Reference: 1844 D Quarter in THE HOLBORN UNION Volume 02 Page 144
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Attached are the birth certificate of WA Pay and the letter in the Lloyds Weekly from 1901.
Can you send the other letter from 1897 to genealogiepayATgmail.com, pls?
Obviously Arthur and Alfred met-up in USA and travelled together to Surinam.
Actually Alfred got banned from Surinam as he smuggled a small piece of gold in a newspaper (source: Surinam newspaper, in Dutch).
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Hi Robin
Yes, we've seen the birth certificate (I posted the details earlier on this thread).
And as a member of Ancestry I was also able to see the snip from the Lloyds Weekly, which is attached to a public tree.
However, Rosie and I have been working on WILLIAM JAMES PAY and ADA EMILY
If you look at reply #19 on this thread, you will see the Census record that Rosie found, which links to the birth reference I found, and matches the census details you have already found for the family.
May I recommend that you read through this whole thread - I appreciate it is complicated.
We have seen all the birth details you have already posted and looked them up.
However I don't know what you mean about the other letter from 1897?
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@ IgorStrav: from a post by Rosie:
"That request appeared in Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper 04 July 1897 and states his mother lived in Cornwall Road, Notting Hill 8 years ago. It also says his brother joined the Mounted Police in S. Africa about either 15 or 18 years ago (copy is poor)"
Seems like a similar message is published in 1900 and 1901 by Alfred.
The Gold Fields of Prince Edward ( in the 1900 publication) are either in Canada, Wales or South Africa.
There was a Gold Rush in Canada/USA, so I guess it's this one.
Obviously when his wife Elisabeth Augusta Wollenschlager died, he moved to the USA and returned to SA after Black Week. There is a document that Arthur Pay moved from Rose Bank USA to South Africa during the Boer War (Western Province Mounted Rifles). This states that he is a Mining Engineer.
Years ago I found a military file in Kew of a Arthur Pay from 1872, Father John, from Sussex, but that one doesn't seem to match with my WA Pay from London 1865.
Funny note is that he lost his stripes because he got caught being drunk on duty (which would match his genes from his father William James as a barman....lol).
The story of my great aunt (sister of my grandfather Arthur Pay....) is that AP got wounded in the Boer War and moved to Surinam etc.
Other strange facts is that a John Pay, born in Africa, died in Surinam in 1887 ...
As WA Pay's son Arthur shipwrecked near Prince Edward Island, being part of a convoy in 1943.
Perhaps this info is of any help or more confusing.
Trying dig-out their history for two decades now. But it's obviously part of my DNA never to give up:-)
Thanks for all the help.
"If you fail, try try try again" Arthur Pay (Sr)
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@ Rosie99:
Ada Emily and George Maling indeed had a daughter Edith, In a census (i think the 1901) they live together with either WJ daughter Ada Mary or Florence Ellen. Check 8)
Pls send me newspaper article from 1897 in the Lloyds Weekly. Its obviously a different one than mine from 1900. Thanks. genenealogiepayATgmail.com
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Sorry I am not able to download the image to send to you.
Just a few things which if they were my Pay family I would be considering.
There is no trace of a marriage between Ada Emily Smith & William James Pay.
There is no trace of a death of William James Pay between 1871 & 1881 census. There is no trace of WJP in the census around the time the children were born.
I realise that you have numerous birth certificates of her children that all state that Ada Emily Pay was nee Smith and that her husband was William James Pay. They are however no proof that Ada was married to a William James Pay as she could have made up the information, it would not have been checked. It was not uncommon for fathers names to be made up by the mother when registering the birth to avoid admitting they were illegitimate.
When Ada married George Maling the pretence that she was previously married would have been continued including naming her father as George Smith, again she would not have had to prove that she was previously married or widowed. When the birth of her 'Maling' daughter was registered she gave her maiden surname as Pay not Smith.
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There is no trace of a death of William James Pay between 1861 & 1871 census. There is no trace of WJP in the census around the time the children were born.
Rosie - I think you meant no trace of a death for WJP between 1873 and 1881 census
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There is no trace of a death of William James Pay between 1861 & 1871 census. There is no trace of WJP in the census around the time the children were born.
Rosie - I think you meant no trace of a death for WJP between 1873 and 1881 census
Whoops again. I have amended my dates.
Thank you
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Robin - added again for your ref
several trees on Ancestry have quoted the death ref below for William James PAY.
As you see from this - it's a death ref for a child aged 0, so cannot be his.
PAY, WILLIAM JAMES 0
GRO Reference: 1874 J Quarter in THANET Volume 02A Page 472
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Another child for Ada :-\
ROSE GERTRUDE MALING Mothers maiden surname PAY
1888 June Quarter in PADDINGTON Volume 01A Page 63
Deaths Jun qtr 1890
Rose Gertrude Maling age 2
Paddington 1a 19
ADDED
Do you have the birth certificates of any of the Maling children
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Wow. That's quite a shock.
Another child for Ada Emily. At least she was a legal one this time;-(
The only William James Pay I found was one from Deal born in 1833, but I'm almost convinced the chap William James Pay was made up by Ada Emily. Would be funny if the lad from Deal IS the father: Perhaps a family member or a Pay from another tree. Another reason not to marry these days for sure;-)
Good thing is that it must pretty easy to find the parents, great parents etc. of George?
There is a George Pay in South Africa. Perhaps he took his grandson William Arthur to SA around 1880?
The picture of William James I posted might be WA Pay's grandfather George. Would make sense, not?
I read a file in the NA in Kew two years ago about a WA Pay trying to divorce a Emily Smith (1910-1915) who described her as a woman he never had to something with, but that's probably a totaly wrong lead....
@Rosie: I dont have a birth certicate of AE Pay's kid with George. I do have a picture of WA Pay's sister Florence though. Thanks for your help
@IgorStrav: Thanks for the help too. Much appreciated!
Cheers,
Robin
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Florence Pay (professional Head Maker, a good one;-) )
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Hi Robin
Re the William James PAY born in Deal in Kent.
Don't believe this can be your William J.
In Rosie99's post #22, she has followed him up for you.
"The William James Pay who you have born in Deal Kent
Baptised 23 Oct 1833 at Deal parents James & Mary
In 1851 he is living with his parents and his occupation is twine spinner.
In 1861 - RG9/ Piece 482 Folio 42 page 40 living at Chatham age 28 occ Rope Maker with wife Hester age 27 born Suffolk"
Rosie goes on to say in #23 that this William James is not with 'wife' Hester in the 1871, but given the change in occupation, it seems unlikely that he is the barman (and associated occupations) on William Arthur (and the other children)'s birth certificates.
As I said in a recent post, the death in 1874 cannot be him as it is a child. A death could also be registered as simply William (no middle name mentioned), so difficult to track down with certainty.
Ada Emily Pay and her family George Pay and Mary (Smith) Pay
Rosie99 in #19 has found Ada with her father George and mother Mary (Smith) Pay in the 1851, with siblings George and Ellen (and presumably mother Mary's nephew Edward Smith). There was another daughter Emily, who possibly died and I have not as yet found her death ref.
I agree that Ada is a servant in the 1861 in the other census Rosie quotes.
This makes it clear that Ada is in fact a PAY, and casts doubt on whether William James was also a PAY.
Rosie also found in reply #26 a further link between Ada and her children and the Pay family in that in the 1854 at the baptism of Ada's sister Ellen, the Pay family are at 2 Browns Court in Marylebone. This is the address for Ada and her own family in the 1881 where she's shown with the children but widowed.
going back to the history of George Pay
I have tracked down Ada's father George Pay, who comes from a small place in Sussex called Funtington. He is (I believe) the son of Edward Pay and Amelia (Trusler) Pay, and was born c 1814-17 in Funtington.
He appears in two censuses, the 1841 and the 1851, and there is also a baptism in Funtington in Dec 1814.
He marries Mary Smith in 1836 in St Pancras Parish Chapel (both sign their name).
Whilst Mary (Smith) Pay appears in the 1861 census with her 'nephew' Edward/Edwin Smith, shown as married, occupation 'coachman's wife', I cannot as yet see George Pay who is presumably working away from home. He does not appear to be with any of his siblings.
I can at present not see either George Pay or Mary (Smith) Pay in later censuses.
Next steps if you want to take them...
Rosie has asked if you have the birth certificates for any of the Maling children which would give addresses.
I have been looking for 'barmen' in the 1871 census called William James or William, in the rough locality of Ada's address at the time, or in Marylebone. This produces a number of possibilities but all would need tracking down in the 1861 and after 1871 and is a long task as well as highly speculative.
Have you taken a DNA test? This is likely to be the only way you will find out who the William James could be, the father of your ancestor William Arthur - because it seems very likely that the PAY surname came from Ada.
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Hi Robin
Re the William James PAY born in Deal in Kent.
Don't believe this can be your William J.
In Rosie99's post #22, she has followed him up for you.
"The William James Pay who you have born in Deal Kent
Baptised 23 Oct 1833 at Deal parents James & Mary
In 1851 he is living with his parents and his occupation is twine spinner.
In 1861 - RG9/ Piece 482 Folio 42 page 40 living at Chatham age 28 occ Rope Maker with wife Hester age 27 born Suffolk"
Rosie goes on to say in #23 that this William James is not with 'wife' Hester in the 1871, but given the change in occupation, it seems unlikely that he is the barman (and associated occupations) on William Arthur (and the other children)'s birth certificates.
As I said in a recent post, the death in 1874 cannot be him as it is a child. A death could also be registered as simply William (no middle name mentioned), so difficult to track down with certainty.
Ada Emily Pay and her family George Pay and Mary (Smith) Pay
Rosie99 in #19 has found Ada with her father George and mother Mary (Smith) Pay in the 1851, with siblings George and Ellen (and presumably mother Mary's nephew Edward Smith). There was another daughter Emily, who possibly died and I have not as yet found her death ref.
I agree that Ada is a servant in the 1861 in the other census Rosie quotes.
This makes it clear that Ada is in fact a PAY, and casts doubt on whether William James was also a PAY.
Rosie also found in reply #26 a further link between Ada and her children and the Pay family in that in the 1854 at the baptism of Ada's sister Ellen, the Pay family are at 2 Browns Court in Marylebone. This is the address for Ada and her own family in the 1881 where she's shown with the children but widowed.
going back to the history of George Pay
I have tracked down Ada's father George Pay, who comes from a small place in Sussex called Funtington. He is (I believe) the son of Edward Pay and Amelia (Trusler) Pay, and was born c 1814-17 in Funtington.
He appears in two censuses, the 1841 and the 1851, and there is also a baptism in Funtington in Dec 1814.
He marries Mary Smith in 1836 in St Pancras Parish Chapel (both sign their name).
Whilst Mary (Smith) Pay appears in the 1861 census with her 'nephew' Edward/Edwin Smith, shown as married, occupation 'coachman's wife', I cannot as yet see George Pay who is presumably working away from home. He does not appear to be with any of his siblings.
I can at present not see either George Pay or Mary (Smith) Pay in later censuses.
Next steps if you want to take them...
Rosie has asked if you have the birth certificates for any of the Maling children which would give addresses.
I have been looking for 'barmen' in the 1871 census called William James or William, in the rough locality of Ada's address at the time, or in Marylebone. This produces a number of possibilities but all would need tracking down in the 1861 and after 1871 and is a long task as well as highly speculative.
Have you taken a DNA test? This is likely to be the only way you will find out who the William James could be, the father of your ancestor William Arthur - because it seems very likely that the PAY surname came from Ada.
A big thank you for IgorStav and Rosie:-)
Edward's parents were Thomas Pay from Funtington and Mary Matthews.
Can Rosie give more details about Alfred Pays letter in the Loyds Weekly in 1897. It's still hard to pinpoint when brother Arthur left England to South Africa (I suspect a family member & the gold and diamond rush?)
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1871 Census: Browns Court is within London/St Marylebone/St Mary - District 13
But George and Mary Pay are not there at number 2 or any other number in the street so far as I can see.
Have not as yet found Browns Court in the 1861 - doesn't seem to be within London/St Marylebone/St Mary - although I have been wandering round an area of London which actually I know quite well, albeit in more recent times!
And no, I cannot find either George and Mary after their 1851 appearance, or indeed Ada and George Maling after the 1891 census.
Around 1880 and 1900 names of streets were renamed (i.e. Allington street became Arneway street. I did visit the area quite recently too. Haven't found any Brown's Court yet either;-(
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The only proof I have that WA Pay was in South Africa for 20 years was a letter from his brother Alfred in the LLoyds Weekly that he was looking for his mother Mrs Maling, his sisters Ada and Florence and his brother Arthur, a mining engineer, who was in SA for 20 years and last wrote from Prince Edward Gold fields. This as during the Boer War.
That request appeared in Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper 04 July 1897 and states his mother lived in Cornwall Road, Notting Hill 8 years ago. It also says his brother joined the Mounted Police in S. Africa about either 15 or 18 years ago (copy is poor)
Sorry, I am not able to get a copy of this for you. You should be able to get a copy from FindMyPast or the British newspaper Archives website
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The only proof I have that WA Pay was in South Africa for 20 years was a letter from his brother Alfred in the LLoyds Weekly that he was looking for his mother Mrs Maling, his sisters Ada and Florence and his brother Arthur, a mining engineer, who was in SA for 20 years and last wrote from Prince Edward Gold fields. This as during the Boer War.
That request appeared in Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper 04 July 1897 and states his mother lived in Cornwall Road, Notting Hill 8 years ago. It also says his brother joined the Mounted Police in S. Africa about either 15 or 18 years ago (copy is poor)
Sorry, I am not able to get a copy of this for you. You should be able to get a copy from FindMyPast or the British newspaper Archives website
The only proof I have that WA Pay was in South Africa for 20 years was a letter from his brother Alfred in the LLoyds Weekly that he was looking for his mother Mrs Maling, his sisters Ada and Florence and his brother Arthur, a mining engineer, who was in SA for 20 years and last wrote from Prince Edward Gold fields. This as during the Boer War.
That request appeared in Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper 04 July 1897 and states his mother lived in Cornwall Road, Notting Hill 8 years ago. It also says his brother joined the Mounted Police in S. Africa about either 15 or 18 years ago (copy is poor)
Sorry, I am not able to get a copy of this for you. You should be able to get a copy from FindMyPast or the British newspaper Archives website
Found the article on Findmypast. Around 15 years ago (1882) Arthur went to SA to join the Mounted Police.
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A big thank you for IgorStav and Rosie:-)
Edward's parents were Thomas Pay from Funtington and Mary Matthews.
Can Rosie give more details about Alfred Pays letter in the Loyds Weekly in 1897. It's still hard to pinpoint when brother Arthur left England to South Africa (I suspect a family member & the gold and diamond rush?)
I was replying to your request from yesterday asking me for more details from the article
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Greetings,
New info taught me that I descend via WA Pay, AE Pay, George, Edward to a Thomas who married Mary Matthews in Funtington Sussex. They both seem to have been born in Margate Kent around 1662, according to several public trees on Ancestry and Myheritage. This would lead back via several Isaac's and Thomas"to a Roger Pay/Paine/Pey in born around 1592 (Canterbury) who married a charming Ann Wynne in London.
Anyone got any info on this adventurous flock?
Rgds,
Robin
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Thomas who married Mary Matthews in Funtington Sussex. They both seem to have been born in Margate Kent around 1662, according to several public trees on Ancestry and Myheritage.
The marriage between Thomas Pay & Mary Mathews was in Funtington in 1782. Did you mean to post that they were born in 1762 rather than 1662 :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2QQ-8QNK
I would be looking closer to Funtington for a baptism of Thomas & Mary than Margate (approx 130 miles apart). There is a Thomas Pay in Harting that could fit but would need researching further and that is only 10 miles from Funtington.
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Family Search has 25 possible Thomas Pay's from Sussex born in the 1760's. It wouldn't surprise me if his name is written as eg. Thos and Pain or Payne.
Which T.P. from Harting are you referring to?
Thanx.
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Regarding the father of William Arthur Pay. Perhaps George Maling is the father of him and Alfred, Ada and Florence, but he and Ada Emily could not marry for some reason?
Another lead might be a death certificate of W.A. Pay. He is said to have died "at the end of the war", but no registration can be found in Surinam or England in 1945.
Any advice where to search?
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2QW-PJ1W
This is what Rosie was referring to, I believe:
Name:
Thos Pay
Event Type:
Christening
Event Date:
13 Jun 1755
Event Place:
Harting, Sussex, England
Gender:
Male
Father's Name:
John
Mother's Name:
July
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Thanks IgorStrav.
I found out that Mary Matthews was most likely from Tillington....
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William Arthur Pay died in Paramaribo, Surinam on the 1st of December 1941. Unfortunately his parents were not known/mentioned.
Family rumours say we are related to a "Captain King". Perhaps this mysterious "William James" was a barman/licensed victualler named King?
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John and July were John Pay (1814) and Julia Marden (1817) from Sussex.
The line seems to go back to another John + Mary, William and Eleonor Padwick/Atweeke and John + Joan Nash. Pls correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks:-)
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Have you taken a DNA test? This is likely to be the only way you will find out who the William James could be, the father of your ancestor William Arthur - because it seems very likely that the PAY surname came from Ada.
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Thanks Rosie. I did read IgorStravs comment ;D
Indeed it might be a good idea to use my DNA-test (My Heritage) for tracking this handsome bartender who gave birth to (at least) 4 kids :o The test shows lots of British and Scandinavian DNA.
Another lead might be Edith Ada Maling(1885-1933), who married Thomas F. Garner. They might have living ancestors of my (1965) generation.
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We will leave you to pursue your DNA test then. Good luck :)
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:D Dear All, Hope lock down measures are great for your family research too :o
I happened to find my ggg father. A combination of family rumours from various sides, a happy bunch of historians specialised in English pubs and fanatic hunting ::) led me to a William King (~1833-1835).
He is the son of another William King, and both worked at a public house, and were licensed victualers in the London area's where gg mother Ada Emily Pay (1944-1921) happened to hang around too these days.
Still working out what kind of drama happened, since they couldn't marry properly during 1865-1871, so it seems.
Cheerio,
Robin
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Forgot to mention that the wife he lived with in the USA and maybe even already in SA (1901-1910) was named Wilhelmina Gunther. Most likely of Dutch origin.
Other great news for SA Pay family researchers is that two of his SA children (Violet Florence and Arthur Alfred Arnold), from his 1st wife (Elisabeth Augusta Wollenschlager,) married and had children in SA.
Pls check out much more recently scanned and published SA files on eg. FamilySearch.