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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: JoTH on Tuesday 12 July 16 17:25 BST (UK)

Title: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Tuesday 12 July 16 17:25 BST (UK)
I have been trying to find a marriage for Henry Clinton. It would seem that he adopted a middle name of Montague (his mother was born and lived in Shepton Montague which I think is where he got the name from). Below is what I have on him.

Born c1860 in either Cardiff, or Middlesex - all listed on different census as his birth place.
Died 1906 in Thirsk, Yorkshire.
In 1901 he and his wife are listed as Theatrical professionals and she is from Spennymore, Durham. There is a blob of ink over her first name which begins with J and her middle name is Anne.  They are living in Chester.
I can't find him in 81 or 91. His son Gilbert Montague Clinton was born in 1898 in Wales.
After his death I found a widow Jane Clinton (actress), Gilbert and a younger sibling at the Gateshead Union Workhouse in the 1911 census.

Any help much appreciated.
Thanks
Joanna
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: LisaRobinson87 on Tuesday 12 July 16 17:38 BST (UK)
Have you found Gilbert's birth? I can't seem to locate a birth for a Gilbert Montague Clinton
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Tuesday 12 July 16 17:42 BST (UK)
No I've just found him on the census and his death.
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: LisaRobinson87 on Tuesday 12 July 16 17:44 BST (UK)
There are a couple of birth for Gilbert Montague in wales i wonder if he was registered under his mothers name and not Clinton
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Tuesday 12 July 16 17:47 BST (UK)
He could have been I suppose but until I find out what his mother's name was, that's a bit of a guess :)
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Tuesday 12 July 16 17:50 BST (UK)
I just had a look at the Gilbert Montagues in Wales using a blank surname.  One died as a baby and the other is found later in 1901 census so it's not them.
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 12 July 16 17:53 BST (UK)
To help others looking, the children of the couple as listed in 1901 are:

George Clinton 4 Harwood, Lancs (later appears as George Henry Clinton b 5 Aug 1896, I think)
Gilbert Clinton 2 Pontypool, Monmouthshire (DOB given in later records as 2 July 1898)
Madeline Clinton 7mo Knutsford, Cheshire (DOB given later as 23 July 1900)

1901 census ref: RG13/3345/90/6.
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: LisaRobinson87 on Tuesday 12 July 16 17:54 BST (UK)
Have you go this for the daughter?
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 12 July 16 17:56 BST (UK)
Unfortunately Madeline's birth reg entry on CheshireBMD does not list mother's maiden name.
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Tuesday 12 July 16 18:05 BST (UK)
Interesting that Henry is listed as a comedian!
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Tuesday 12 July 16 18:29 BST (UK)
Hi possibly Madeline Agnes aged 10 b Cheshire is in Benfieldside, Durham as plain Agnes in last census?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Tuesday 12 July 16 18:31 BST (UK)
I think that's correct, Keyboard86. 
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Tuesday 12 July 16 18:38 BST (UK)
In Durham 1939 same DOB

Deaths Dec 1970 
CLINTON    Gilbert Montague  2Jy1898 S Shields

So birthdate should be in Sept Qtr

Cas
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Tuesday 12 July 16 18:43 BST (UK)
So we have everything on Gilbert M, if only his baptism could be found and then possible his mother's maiden name.  I've also started trying to find his older brother George but to no avail yet.
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 12 July 16 18:47 BST (UK)
Not that it help your search one iota, but you might like to know that, according to 'The Era', in April 1892 Henry Clinton was gainfully employed playing 'Shifty Dick' in 'The Detective' by Alfred Cox at the Gaiety Theatre in Brighton   :D
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Tuesday 12 July 16 18:48 BST (UK)
But a priceless bit of information, JenB!
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: barryd on Tuesday 12 July 16 18:56 BST (UK)
There are 2 Public Member Trees for this Clinton family on ancestry.com if you have seen them or can get access to them. From ancestry and via the 1901 Census Spennymoor, County Durham is spelled wrong. That is what  got  me wondering what was going on. Will look further.
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Tuesday 12 July 16 19:03 BST (UK)
Barryd, I found  3 public members but they don't have any more info than I have.
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: MaureeninNY on Tuesday 12 July 16 19:33 BST (UK)
Gilbert's Canadian Service Records are available online:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ez1/

The digitized records show his mother as Jane THORNTON 58 Fenwick Row Boldon Colliery.
Don't know why they seem to have her as Mrs Salton on the short form.


From:
http://www.southtyneside.gov.uk/article/9966/Search-Register-Office-records
Richard THORNTON married Jane A CLINTON on 11 Sep 1915
Register: R 106Entry: 16
Richard THORNTON married Jane A JACKSON on 11 Sep 1915
Register: R 106Entry: 16 \

Maureen
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Tuesday 12 July 16 19:42 BST (UK)
Hi working on above find, was he one of the "Children"  on Vessel Sicilian 24th February 1911 Liverpool to Portland shown as G H Clinton or is this George?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: MaureeninNY on Tuesday 12 July 16 19:45 BST (UK)
Hi working on above find, was he one of the "Children"  on Vessel Sicilian 24th February 1911 Liverpool to Portland shown as G H Clinton?
Keyboard86

Think he's listed as Gilbert M CLINTON 25 Jun 1913 on the Corinthian.
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Tuesday 12 July 16 19:47 BST (UK)
 ;D George Henry perhaps?

Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: LisaRobinson87 on Tuesday 12 July 16 19:47 BST (UK)
First name(s)   Gilbert
Last name   Clinton
Sex   Male
Age   14
Year   1913
Event date   6/25/1913
Ship name   Corinthian
Name full party   Barnardo Homes
Place   Toronto, Ontario
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: MaureeninNY on Tuesday 12 July 16 19:54 BST (UK)
So Jane's maiden name is probably JACKSON....which will make it very difficult. ::) ::)

Maureen
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Tuesday 12 July 16 19:55 BST (UK)
Hi again it was George Henry Clinton arrived Portland 11th March 1911 aged 14 from Dr Barnardos Homes

When and how he arrived back in the UK I cannot locate?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Tuesday 12 July 16 20:06 BST (UK)
Good possible

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKX5-1WFW 1881 Jackson family

Cas
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Tuesday 12 July 16 22:16 BST (UK)
Hi again it was George Henry Clinton arrived Portland 11th March 1911 aged 14 from Dr Barnardos Homes

When and how he arrived back in the UK I cannot locate?
Keyboard86

He could well be the Geo Clinton aged 23 occ Farmer address in UK 58, Fenwick Row, Bolden, Durham arriving from New York to Liverpool on Vessel Corsican 24th November 1919
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Tuesday 12 July 16 22:25 BST (UK)
So it would seem that both boys ended up in Canada through Bernardo's homes. I'll see if I can find dad, Henry's marriage to Jane Jackson
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Tuesday 12 July 16 22:28 BST (UK)
 ;D Portland is in the US State of Maine?!
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Tuesday 12 July 16 22:53 BST (UK)
Oops geography never was my best subject  ;)
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Wednesday 13 July 16 18:27 BST (UK)
With all the information, I've spent the day looking for Henry & Jane's marriage and Gilbert and George's baptism (with Clinton and Jackson surname or even Montague) but with no success.  I wonder if they didn't marry and didn't have them baptised but then seems strange that they had their daughter baptised. Gilbert gives his birth in his enlistment papers as 2 July 1897 but even with that extra info, no luck.   :(

Interesting that both boys were sent overseas with Dr Bernados though.
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Wednesday 13 July 16 18:46 BST (UK)
Personally, I don't think they married. Jane went by the name of Clinton for her children. When she did marry 1915 there where 2 entry one for Jackson, who she was, one for Clinton. just my op.

I think MaureenNY cracked it!

Cas
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Wednesday 13 July 16 18:49 BST (UK)
Would they still have needed to have the children baptised though, although if not why do one and not the other two!
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Wednesday 13 July 16 18:55 BST (UK)
Who can say why Jo? Maybe the travelling with occ..

She went back to Durham in end and took or her family followed.

Cas
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Wednesday 13 July 16 18:59 BST (UK)
Guess I've hit the brick wall on that then!  Shame I can't find Henry in 1881 or 91, last seen living with his mum in 71 and she was easy to track after that! Maybe that's when he started his theatrical career.
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Wednesday 13 July 16 19:02 BST (UK)
Would they still have needed to have the children baptised though, although if not why do one and not the other two!

The bit that I found odd with this family is it was my belief that all births had to be registered at least?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Wednesday 13 July 16 19:08 BST (UK)
Would they still have needed to have the children baptised though, although if not why do one and not the other two!

The bit that I found odd with this family is it was my belief that all births had to be registered at least?
Keyboard86

I agree. The only one is Madeline Agnes, although not checked throughly. Maybe this girl was the most wanted, she did not go as the 2 boys did as very young to parts unknown.

Just a thought. But saying that they must have been registered at some point to travel overseas
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Wednesday 13 July 16 19:24 BST (UK)
Wasn't there some controversy about Dr Bernados shipping boys overseas in the early 1900s?
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Wednesday 13 July 16 19:32 BST (UK)
Wasn't there some controversy about Dr Bernados shipping boys overseas in the early 1900s?

  ;D Even if their was controversy with the work carried out by Dr Barnardos Homes, the boy's births should have been registered?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Wednesday 13 July 16 19:44 BST (UK)
Wasn't there some controversy about Dr Bernados shipping boys overseas in the early 1900s?

  ;D Even if their was controversy within the work carried out by Dr Barnardos Homes, the boy's births should have been registered?
Keyboard86

Agree again.  At birth there should be a registry, regardless what happens after.

Cas
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Wednesday 13 July 16 19:49 BST (UK)
Mmmm nowhere I've seen  :(
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Wednesday 13 July 16 19:53 BST (UK)
Mmmm nowhere I've seen  :(

Guess we have all tried...😁
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Wednesday 13 July 16 20:30 BST (UK)
Hi OK let us possibly try to track Henry b 1860 from 1861, b Cardiff to Henry 1838 Ireland, Sarah 1835 Somerset Thomas 1858 Cardiff, plus Henry White 1846 London Census ref RG09/4035/80/14

In 1871 census

Sarah 1834 b Somerset
Thomas J 1857 Glamorganshire
Henry 1860 Somerset
Census ref RG10/2426/110/7
Keyboard86

Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Wednesday 13 July 16 21:29 BST (UK)
So in 1871 mother is
Sarah Shears born Shepton Montague, Somerset which is where I believe Henry acquired his middle name of Montague. Sarah has been found all the way through to 1911 and I have found her parents also in Shepton Montague, James and Keturah (Hansford). Sarah married Henry Clinton in Cardiff 1857
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Wednesday 13 July 16 21:34 BST (UK)
 :) So normal question with your lot, why registered in Cardiff and apparently born Shepton Montague, and back to Cardiff, and then b Middlesex? who is Henry White in 1861?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Wednesday 13 July 16 21:43 BST (UK)
If I remember right (computer shut down) Henry 1860 was born in Somerset, Cardiff or Middlesex depending on which census you looked at  ???
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Wednesday 13 July 16 22:01 BST (UK)
If I remember right (computer shut down) Henry 1860 was born in Somerset, Cardiff or Middlesex depending on which census you looked at  ???

I wonder why?
Have you followed his brother Thomas J b 1857 Cardiff?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: bitzar on Wednesday 13 July 16 22:15 BST (UK)
Is it a bit odd, in reply #7 which is the copy of baby Madeline's baptism... That the minister was 'Chaplain of HM Prison - Knutsford'?!

Just sayin'...

Bitzar.
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Wednesday 13 July 16 22:29 BST (UK)
Hi again, useful last post, was Thomas J Clinton the brother b 1856/7 Cardiff in 1891 the one shown with this family?

Thomas J Clinton 36 occ Staircase Builder b Cardiff
Emma 38 b Mitcham
Florie 12 b Bristol
Harry 10 b Camberwell
Thomas 9 b Dulwich
Lily 3 b Brixton
RG12/424/128/13
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: barryd on Wednesday 13 July 16 23:06 BST (UK)
I am just spinning wheels on this query. Madeleine is Madeline "Aggie" on her civil registration in Bucklow, Cheshire area 1900. She may have a mother's maiden name (true or false)  if you want to buy the certificate. I cannot find a marriage for "Aggies" parents  in England/Wales). I could not find a birth registration just using first  names for either parent. The prison chaplain is a puzzle too. Did they just know him?
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Thursday 14 July 16 22:08 BST (UK)
Hi in addition to the above queries, two things, who is the "Sister in Law"  Agnes Clinton aged 54 Widow b Shepton Montague with Sarah in 1911, who did Thomas James Clinton marry c 1879, looks to be an Emma aged 29 b Mitcham, Surrey in 1881 Census
RG11/3204/57/25
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Friday 15 July 16 19:38 BST (UK)
If I remember right (computer shut down) Henry 1860 was born in Somerset, Cardiff or Middlesex depending on which census you looked at  ???

I wonder why?
Have you followed his brother Thomas J b 1857 Cardiff?
Keyboard86

Hi again, I have not given up on this family it intrigues me, still cannot work out why Henry gives/is given various places of birth, same with marriage of Thomas James Clinton with "wife" Emma b c 1850/2 Mitcham, Surrey,  the only clue to their marriage is possibly the son Harry W in 1881 Census who is Henry Wallace Clinton who married a Madeline Alice Spencer 9th October 1909 All Saints, Lambeth
The birth certificate of Henry or Thomas James in Cardiff may be your best route?
As you have Sarah in 1911 who is the Agnes Clinton aged 54 shown as Sister in Law with her in Wincanton they both died in Wincanton Sarah 1922, Agnes 1934?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Saturday 16 July 16 00:15 BST (UK)
Hi keyboard
A very quick reply as we have visitors so I was going to look into this next week. However Agnes is Sarah's daughter in law on the census not sister in law, interestingly the transcriber has her as wife to the head!!
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Saturday 16 July 16 00:21 BST (UK)
So, as keyboards suggests, maybe certs are needed. I agree to maybe progress, not all can be done online.
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Saturday 16 July 16 00:40 BST (UK)
HI again so who did Agnes marry?
Keyboard8
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Monday 18 July 16 17:36 BST (UK)
In answer to the baptism of Madeline I found this piece of information about Knutsford but think that as the Clinton's address is Silk Mill Street that maybe they weren't residents of said institutions but that the chaplain of the prison performed the services at St John's Church.

"the population in 1891 was-parish, 4,625; township, 4,643 which includes 200 officers and inmates in Bucklow workhouse and 177 in H.M. Prison."
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Monday 18 July 16 17:43 BST (UK)
HI again so who did Agnes marry?
Keyboard86

So have you sorted out how Agnes became "Daughter in Law"

Thomas J b 1857 marriage?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Monday 18 July 16 17:52 BST (UK)
Haven;t found out anything about Agnes DiL but a possible marriage for Thomas J is Emma Gill but haven't found any firm proof yet.
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Monday 18 July 16 17:57 BST (UK)
There is an Agnes Clinton b 1864 from Somerset in the 1901 living with husband Henry who is a Tailor cutter and living in London.

Oh no have I been looking at the wrong family!
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Monday 18 July 16 18:15 BST (UK)
 :) The 1911 and death suggest Agnes was born c 1857 died aged 78 in 1934 Wincanton?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Monday 18 July 16 18:58 BST (UK)
Haven;t found out anything about Agnes DiL but a possible marriage for Thomas J is Emma Gill but haven't found any firm proof yet.

OK where/when was this one?

Florrie looks to be the Florence Emma Clinton December qtr 1878 Barton R 6a 92

 :) You must start buying birth/ marriage certificates?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Monday 18 July 16 19:10 BST (UK)
I would keyboard if they were my relatives but I'm doing this for a friend as a surprise so don't really want to start buy certificates unless she decides she wants to go further with her "gift" :)
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Monday 18 July 16 19:19 BST (UK)
 :) OK understand, Emma Gill/Thomas J Clinton marriage?
Keyboard85
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Monday 18 July 16 19:23 BST (UK)
Can't find them - they came up on a website from public member tree.  I also looked for an Emma Wallace as their child, Harry had that as a middle name but nothing.
Maybe none of that generation of Clinton's got married!
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: keyboard86 on Monday 18 July 16 20:15 BST (UK)
Hi again, will plod along with family of Thomas J:-

1901 census :-

Emma Clinton 50 Widow b Mitcham
Florence E 22 b Bristol
Lily Mable 13 b Brixton
Residing Courland Grove, Clapham
Census ref RG13/463/53/14

Florence Emma married an Arthur William Cooper March qtr 1905 Lambeth 1d 474

Lily Mabel married a William Adam Wells March qtr 1910 Staines 3a 19, Emma Clinton aged 56 b Mitcham is with them last census

So how did Agnes Clinton b c 1857 become a Daughter in Law to Sarah b c 1835 who married in 1857?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: dhwalt on Wednesday 29 July 20 13:41 BST (UK)
Better late than never...
My note for George Henry Clinton:
Parents Henry Montague Clinton - Actor b. Harrow, Middlesex about 1858 with d. Q4 1906 Thirsk 9d 298 48y and marriage about 1895 with wife Jane Anne Jackson - Actress b. abt 1871 Spennymoor, Co. Durham ex 1901 Census Middlewich, Cheshire. Jane Clinton - Actress age 41y b.1870 Spennymoor, Co. Durham. Death Notice Shields Daily Gazette and Shipping Telegraph, 31 Dec 1906: Henry Montague Clinton - Actor in Thirsk, Yorkshire of Pneumonia. Jane Clinton 1911 Census living in Union Workhouse, High Team, Gateshead. For Jane Ann Jackson b. 1871 Spennymoor see 1881 Census Stranton, Co. Durham with parents John & Ellen Jackson. Brother Gilbert Montague Clinton age 13y in Washington Workhouse, Co. Durham for the 1911 Census.

Why my note?
1. George Henry Clinton married my great aunt Mary Hannah Walton, 26 May 1923, Lanchester Registry Office, Co. Durham. Mary Hannah was my grandfather's (Joseph Lennox 'Len' Walton) younger sister.
2. There were at least 4 children, that I know of, Rennee b.1923, Kenneth b.1926, Norman b.1929, Ena b. 1931 and Wesley b. 1937.
3. Norman emigrated to Brisbane, Australia 15 Feb 1951 ex. Southampton.
4. Kenneth Clinton was my father's best man - wedding picture available.
5. What became of Henry Montague Clinton?
Shields Daily Gazette, 31 Dec 1906, p.1; Thirsk, Yorkshire, England; Death, Henry Montague Clinton - Actor, Paulton’s Star Company. Cause of death Pneumonia.
6. Henry Montague had an In Memoriam:
Henry M. Clinton, Death, 29 Dec 1906; The Stage, 2 Jan 1908, p.12.
7. The George Henry Clinton + Mary Hannah Walton marriage certificate notes:
Father of George Henry Clinton = Henry Montague Clinton (Deceased) - Actor.

I am busy reading through this thread and hope to add a few twigs to this branch of my family tree!

Dave Walton
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: JoTH on Wednesday 29 July 20 15:43 BST (UK)
Hi Dave

Had to remind myself of the history of this as I did it for a friend's 60th birthday and she turned 65 last month.
Gilbert Montagu Clinton was her maternal grandfather, he married Annie Souter Ormston = Margaret A Clinton who married Granville Irvine O'Connor, a Bermudian serviceman based in South Shields during the war. My friend Angela was born in 1945 in South Shields and her younger sister 1948. The family returned to Bermuda in 1951.

Joanna
Title: Re: Marriage - county unknown
Post by: dhwalt on Friday 31 July 20 19:11 BST (UK)
Much appreciated. The Clintons certainly were international from turn of the 1900s onwards. I moved out of the Consett area in 1966 so don't Know if any of them remain in North West Durham.

David