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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Roscommon => Topic started by: cullenfamily on Saturday 16 July 16 11:35 BST (UK)
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Hope someone can help me here.
My greatgrandfather Michael Dolan was from Arm, Ballinapark, Castlerea, County Roscommon.
Listed on the 1901 Census form as:
Michael Dolan (head of household) age 40
Mary Ann (wife) age 40
Peter Dolan (my grandfather) age 20
Emmm Dolan age 18
Frances Dolan age 16
Mary Jane Dolan age 14
Bridget Dolan age 12
Patrick Dolan age 10
John Dolan age 9
Micheal Dolan age 7
Martha Dolan age 3
Thomas Dolan age 1
THIS IS THE EASY BIT (or at least what I thought was a great start!)
The 1911 Census – which should show an increase in age for each person of 10 years (unless of course any of the family was born between the end of March and first two days in April as the 1901 census was taken on 31/3/1901 and the 1911 census was taken on 2/4/1911.
For some inexplicable reason, the ages are way out as below . . .
Michael Dolan (head of household) age 58
Mary Ann (wife) age looks like 35, but I presume it is is 55
Peter Dolan (my grandfather) age 28
Emmm Dolan NOT LISTED
Frances Dolan NOT LISTED
Mary Jane Dolan NOT LISTED
Bridget Dolan age 20
Patrick Dolan age 18
John Dolan age 16
Micheal Dolan age 14
Martha Dolan age 12
Thomas Dolan age 10
The fact that Emma, Frances and Mary were not listed meant they had either left home or stayed the night in another house on the night of the census in 1911.
Mary Jane is said to have become a nun and moved to England, so it is very likely she had already began her sisterhood at that time.
Frances (or Fanny as she was known to the family) is said to have moved to Belfast and again this may have been the reason she may have not been listed.
Emma (was known as Minnie) was possibly married in 1911 and living with her husband Tommy Cuddy in Howth.
Michael Dolan's wife was Mary Ann Brown and she died on the 14th March 1937, at Arm, Ballinapark, Castlerea, County Roscommon. The cause of death was recorded on her death certificate as myocarditis – 10 days cardiac failure certified. Her death was reported by Martha Dolan, her daughter who was present at her death. Her age at last birthday was listed as 74 years of age.
If this is true, her date of birth would have been 1863 and in matching dates, I found an entry which I hope to be her. She was christened on on the 14th June.
Her father’s name was Edward Brown.
Her mother was Ellen Kennedy.
She was christened at: Catholic Parish: Kiltoom & Cam, Civil Parish: Kiltoom, Catholic Diocese: Elphin. The Sponsors were Thomas Kennedy and Ellen O’Neill
And a further search of her parents gave me a listing for:
Edward Brown and Ellen Kennedy were married on 18/9/1858
Catholic Parish: Kiltoom & Cam, Civil Parish: Kiltoom, Catholic Diocese: Elphin.
Family sources (deceased) said that when my grandfather Michael Dolan and Mary Brown married, there were 50 sidecars at the wedding - an indication of how popular either or both of them were at the time. It is also said that Michael was a Herd for O'Connor Don.
Michael and Mary's children:
Martha (also known as Mattie) stayed at home in the old family house and never married.
Peter the eldest married my grandmother Mary Kate Grogan, on the 9th June 1914 in St. Patrick’s Catholic Church, Castlerea, County Roscommon. Peter was listed on the marriage certificate as a farmer and Mary Kate as a farmer’s daughter. Peter’s address was Clooneyvendon, a few miles from Castlerea, where he had purchased a house and farm and Mary Kate was from Behy. Thomas Grogan was Mary Kate’s father, who was also a farmer. Peter and Mary Kate continued to reside at Clooneyvendon after this date. She was affectionately known all her life as Molly.
My mother, Mary (or Mae) was the eldest daughter of Peter and Molly.
I realise this is a very long post and contains a lot of names, but I am hoping that either the older or later generations may attract some interest among readers.
I am baffled at the age difference in the census records. If they were out by a year on one or two entries it would not look so strange, but the 1911 entries are way off in most cases.
I was wondering if there were any members who may have the baptism files or transcripts for Castlerea and may be able to find dates of birth for any of the above mentioned family names.
Also I am hoping that there are other Dolan researchers out there who may be related in some way and that we can share our resources. And/or Brown family researchers who may be able to confirm or build on any of the information I have found about my greatgrandmother Mary Ann Brown. Please bear in mind that perhaps her name was spelt Mary 'Anne'.
if you have got this far, thank you for your interest in reading my quest to find more accurate answers and I hope to hear back from anyone who can help me add more accurate details to my family history. I am currently living in Perth, Australia which makes it very hard to research from afar. If I were in Ireland there is nothing I would like to do more than delve into the files available there. Thank you in advance for any assistance or explanation of the discrepancies on the two census forms.
Attached is the only family photo I have. Michael Dolan is pictured top left and Mary Ann is in the centre of the photo with the white top. I believe the photo was taken at the old house at Arm on an occasion when their daughter (a nun) had returned from England to visit.
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Hello,
You need to make this a separate thread- people will only find you if they are searching the Daly family.
You can click on 'report to moderator' and ask for your post to be moved to a new thread.
I have read the post but need to reread it ;) but am thinking it is not part of the Daly research.
You will find many examples of increases/ wrong ages in censuses. The younger members are fairly close, I think. There was a Pension Act around 1908 which may have influenced some people to increase their age but also, age did not seem to be that important.
Regards
Heywood
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You are right Heywood, it is not part of the Daly posting. Thanks for letting me know.
I find it confusing when posting on this website, I need it to be in the Roscommon threads, but after several failures, I found your post on Daly and presumed it was in the same area. Sorry!
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It's not my post ;)
For any query, just go to the board you think is right, in this case the Roscommon board , and then start a new topic but no matter- a mod will move it for you.
Good luck!
I see it is now moved - Thank you moderators :)
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A lot to get through in that long post so just trying to break it down a bit.
1901 Census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Roscommon/Castlereagh/Arm/1663995/
1911 Census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Roscommon/Castlereagh/Arm/763029/
As heywood said the discrepancies in ages are normal, off putting when you first encounter it but very common.
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The fact that Emma, Frances and Mary were not listed meant they had either left home or stayed the night in another house on the night of the census in 1911.
Mary Jane is said to have become a nun and moved to England, so it is very likely she had already began her sisterhood at that time.
Frances (or Fanny as she was known to the family) is said to have moved to Belfast and again this may have been the reason she may have not been listed.
Emma (was known as Minnie) was possibly married in 1911 and living with her husband Tommy Cuddy in Howth.
Are you sure about who the girls married.
There is a marriage in 1915 of a Mary Dolan and Thomas Cuddy.
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/2b2cbd6564921
And a Emma Dolan and Timothy Fox in 1911
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/2b2cbd6564921
Although she may be too old to be yours
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Roscommon/Drumdaff/Clooncashel_Beg/780395/
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There is a Peter Dolan registered in Castlerea in 1881
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/78de893620439
Could Emma be Winifred 1890
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/82724c2522762
Bridget 1888 mother Brown
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/8269342713784
They are probably all here but it's too late to check now.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i0t/
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Thanks Sinann,
I will look more closely at the links later, however I don't understand why most of them have the mother as N/R. I presume this means not registered! Irish records are hard enough to find after Michael Collins blew up the records in 1920 but surely a registration would not be complete if it did not contain who registered the birth? Without a mother's maiden name, it is not conclusive enough that any are the ones you want. So far I have not assumed anything as I would like my family history to be accurate.
Having said that I welcome your reply and please don't assume I am ungrateful. I am happy to receive any replies and links and I can confirm that my grandfather PETER DOLAN was born on the 23rd May 1881 at Arm, Ballinapark, Castlerea, County Roscommon to Michael Dolan and Mary ANNE (Brown) Dolan as that is the only copy of birth I have in my possession as someone got it from the National Archives and sent it to me.
Are most of the names on the last link entered with the mother's name deliberately missing so that you have to follow it up at the National Archives?
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NR = The mother's name is not recorded on the index, it will be on the Cert, this was quite normal at the time the index was created. IrishGenealogy is working to improve the index but it is a huge task.
The facts on those burnt records http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-records-burned.html
The National Archives do not hold Civil Registration records, these are held by the GRO in Roscommon
http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/i-want-to-get-a-copy-of-a-certificate-what-do-i-do
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Thanks again Sinann,
I will certainly obtain copies of all the Dolan children, but will wait till I have the record numbers to them all, just in case some of them are not the correct ones.
Many thanks again for your help and for providing me with the vital links.
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Your choice of course but I can't see the need to purchase them all.
If you pick out the most likely births to suit the 1901 Census (which seems to be the more correct of the two) and specify that you only what the certs if the parents are Michael Dolan and Mary (Anne) Brown, than you won't waste money.
The staff in the GRO are generally very accommodating.
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That sounds good,
I did not know you could specify your choice if the parents are matching your needs.
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That sounds good,
I did not know you could specify your choice if the parents are matching your needs.
Technically speaking you can't but I've always found the GRO staff to be very helpful, but I wouldn't just order a load and let them sift through them for you, that could annoy them and they could just charge you for them all, correct or not, make the effort and all going well you will have them correct anyway.
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Or you could take out a sub with RootsIreland, they have a 24 hour sub and they may have the baptism records.
http://www.rootsireland.ie/
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Michael DOLAN aged 26; of Kilkeevan; father Peter
married Kilmurry Church on Jun 10 1880 - LINK (http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/90aaae10933433) to civil reference
Mary Anne BROWN aged 24; of Brownhill; father Patrick
This means your information
If this is true, her date of birth would have been 1863 and in matching dates, I found an entry which I hope to be her. She was christened on on the 14th June.
Her father’s name was Edward Brown.
Her mother was Ellen Kennedy.
She was christened at: Catholic Parish: Kiltoom & Cam, Civil Parish: Kiltoom, Catholic Diocese: Elphin. The Sponsors were Thomas Kennedy and Ellen O’Neill
And a further search of her parents gave me a listing for:
Edward Brown and Ellen Kennedy were married on 18/9/1858
Catholic Parish: Kiltoom & Cam, Civil Parish: Kiltoom, Catholic Diocese: Elphin.
is incorrect
A more plausible date of birth is in this baptism on Mar 22 1857 in Ballinlough
Father Patrick BROWN Mother Mary ROYAN Sponsors Michael ROYAN & Elizabeth ROYAN
ROYAN could be a literal/phonetic spelling and be RUANE in other records
I don't see a marriage in Roscommon but in Balla RC Mayo on Nov 7 1843
Patrick BROWN married Mary RUANE - LINK (http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631999#page/18/mode/1up)
Ages in old records are unreliable due to literacy, memory and honesty! I would err on the side that her age at marriage would be more accurate than at death.
This is a plausible DoB for Michael DOLAN based on a baptism in Castlerea on Sep 28 1851
Father Peter DOLAN; Mother Brigid CAVENNY; Sponsors John DONLAN & Mary ABBOT
Peter DOLAN m Brigid KAVENY Mar 02 1840 - LINK (http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633928#page/184/mode/1up)
Witnesses Michael SWINEY & Brigid DOLAN
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Children listed below
noting again discrepancies in dates of civil registration and baptisms
I am looking at transcriptions and see that
Michael is baptised as Michael Joseph but within a couple of days there is a James also
However there is no birth of a James and the sponsors are the same names
I think that this is an error but unfortunately the online microfilm records for the parish are only until 1880
I also believe that Emma was registered as Mary and also baptised Mary
Michael and Martha's baptismal sponsors included an Emma Mary
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The 1911 census form listed 11 children born, 10 survived. Maybe James died as an infant.
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that's what I wondered - maybe Michael was a twin and as there was a cost to registering births and deaths perhaps if James died within a few days they didn't register him at all possibly
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I am Henrietta McHugh nee Devlin. Thank you for the great photo. I think this was taken in Holyhead, Anglesey, Wales in about 1935. The occasion would have been around the death on 2 December 1934 of my Grandmother Emma Mary Cuddy nee Dolan known as 'Minnie' who was born in Roscommon on 23 February 1883. The man on the far left is Michael Dolan, Minnie's father who was born 28 September 1851 so would have been about 84 in photo.The woman in the white top is Mary Anne Brown born 1863 so would have been about 72 in photo. Other people sitting in the front row of the photo from right to left Theresa Cuddy, Margaret Cuddy (my mother who is still living aged 98) and Mary Cuddy who were all Minnie's children. The lady at the back on the right is a friend of the Cuddy's in Holyhead called Jane Edwards.
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Hi Henrietta,
Michael Dolan was my great grandfather, his eldest son Peter was my grandfather and marreid to Mary Kate Grogan. The photo above was not taken in Holyhead, Anglesey but in Arm, Castlerea, Roscommon outside the original Dolan house. It is amazing that your mother is still living and hopefully has given you a lot of information on the family. Could I ask you to share that info with me and I will gladly give you all I have. I have also compiled a family tree and would love to send it to you. Can I have your direct email address or if you prefer to reply to mine (*)
I do believe I have some very interesting information you may like. I look forward to hearing from you.
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