RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: ricoba on Wednesday 20 July 16 07:46 BST (UK)
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Hi re coat of arms and crest.
female was a Keegan born Castlebar Mayo c1833/35
male Clarke was born QUEENS COUNTY Mayo c1831 died 1891 1n Staffordshire England.
son William c1855 born in Bilston Staffs.
there are so many crest etc, I don't know how I find the right one.
thanks for any info.
ricoba
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There is no such thing as a Family Coat-of-Arms!
Coats-of-Arms were awarded to an individual person.
If you can prove direct linage from an arms bearer, then you are entitled to use them.
Otherwise you have no rights to us them at all.
This from the College Of Arms:
Q. Do coats of arms belong to surnames?
A. No. There is no such thing as a 'coat of arms for a surname'. Many people of the same surname will often be entitled to completely different coats of arms, and many of that surname will be entitled to no coat of arms. Coats of arms belong to individuals. For any person to have a right to a coat of arms they must either have had it granted to them or be descended in the legitimate male line from a person to whom arms were granted or confirmed in the past.
and
Q. What is a crest?
A. It is a popular misconception that the word 'crest' describes a whole coat of arms or any heraldic device. It does not. A crest is a specific part of a full achievement of arms: the three-dimensional object placed on top of the helm.
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Thanks so much for the quick reply.
I suppose that is one less thing to research.
Loads of people that have crests etc on walls, do they just pick out one with the same name and country?
Thanks again,
Ricoba
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There are companies out there who offer coats-of-arms.
BUT, read what they tell you - very carefully!
They say they have a CoA "Linked to your surname" - not that you are entitled to use it.
Indeed, in Scotland it is still illegal toi use a CoA that you are not entitles to! ::) ;D
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When you say 'use', do you mean in some sort of official capacity.
Several people I know have these things hanging in their hallway - the two families.
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There is a Board on RootsChat for Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=430.0 Where this subject has been covered many times :)
See also http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/resources/faqs
Stan
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Thanks for the reply,
yes some friends have the 2 marriage couples crest? on them and in the middle is the date of marriage.
thanks to all,
Regards Ricoba
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male Clarke was born QUEENS COUNTY Mayo c1831
thanks for any info.
ricoba
On a slightly different note.
Queens County and Mayo are two different counties, he can't have been born in both.
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I didn't notice the birthplaces ::)
1871 clearly shows Queens County for William and Mayo for Maria.
1881 - Mayo for both.
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Thanks for the reply,
yes some friends have the 2 marriage couples crest? on them and in the middle is the date of marriage.
thanks to all,
Regards Ricoba
What they have are 2 coats-of-arms (NB not crests!) of people whose surname matches their own.
And probably bought for a lot of money from companies whose only interest is in profits, and not in historical or heraldic facts.
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Thanks for the help and getting me to understand it all.
I will give it away as a bad joke now.
I must say 'tho they look beautiful on a wall.
Thanks to all,
Ricoba
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If you Google coats of arms bucket shops you will get plenty of sites.
Stan
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The answer to your original question is thus that none of them are likely to be the correct one.
You thus have two choices
1) Trace your family back to an to a line that has been granted a coat of arms and then contact the appropriate college of arms.
2) Choose the prettiest one and then use it with extreme care.
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We've a family thingy on the wall, given proudly by my daughter when she was about 15.
It's so well researched that it gets the date of the Norman Invasion wrong! (goodness knows what else!)
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Thanks for all your replies, there is a stand in shopping centre with samples and they look great.
I did ask about my Ross side and he kept on about being from Scotland.
I have researched them back to 1300's and they were all in Wiltshire!
Back to the drawing board.
Thanks again
Ricoba
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The answers here have tended to refer to English laws/rules of heraldry whilst overlooking that the question relates to Irish heraldry, which like Welsh heraldry, had developed some rules of its own which predate the imposition of English rule.
Just as it is acceptable for a Scots clansman to display his Clan chief's Crest, or badge, (but not the Chief's Arms) so the Irish have the concept of Sept arms.
To quote from the Wikipedia entry on Irish Heraldry :
A distinctive feature of Irish heraldry is acceptance of the idea of sept arms, which belong to descendants, not necessarily of a determinate individual, but of an Irish sept, the chieftain of which, under Irish law, was not necessarily a son of the previous chieftain but could be any member of the sept whose grandfather had held the position of chieftain (tanistry). A member of the particular sept has the right to display the arms of that sept, a right that on the contrary does not belong to people of the same surname who belong to a different sept. For example, a person from the O'Kelly sept of Ui Máine may display the arms of that sept, but a Kelly of the Meath or Kilkenny septs cannot.
... the Irish Genealogical Office (previously known as the Office of Arms) "holds that any member of a sept may display the arms of that sept (as distinct from personally 'bearing' the arms, as on stationery, silver, or other such use, [for] only the grantee and his descendants may 'bear' the arms)".
If I understand this correctly it is acceptable for you to display the Sept arms of the two individuals linked in a marriage provided that these are the arms of the correct septs to which they belonged but you may not claim or use these as your own personal Arms.
To explore this further refer to the Chief Herald of Ireland.
Maec
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thanks for the reply.
I will explore all the info when I have time for it to sink in
thanks
Ricoba