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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: jenn270 on Wednesday 27 July 16 01:04 BST (UK)
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Charles William Smith b. 1888 probably in Chelsea, son of Albert George Smith & Eliza Rose; lived adult life in Manchester or close to it. He married and had at least one son but I can't find out who he married, when he died or who his wife & child(ren) were. Family in Canada would love to reconnect with his descendants.
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Hi,
This is proving to be very difficult to answer - too many Smith's/Smyth's and a multitude of Christian names.
All I can find currently is that Albert George Smyth (father George Smyth - dec'd) married Eliza Amelia Rose (father Charles Rose - dec'd) on 17 December 1877 at Trinity Church, Upper Chelsea. Both were said to be of "full age" and both living at Upper Chelsea. Is this the right marriage?
Subsequently there appears to be the birth of a daughter Elizabeth Amelia Smith (baptised on 29 December 1878 at Chelsea). There was a Charles William Smyth born in Westminster area in April 1881 - could this be him?
If you have any more information it would really help (for example are you aware if he have any brothers or sisters).
Hopefully you have a few more details which may help.
Kind regards
Alan
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Thank you for taking the time to look into this, Alan. Unfortunately Charles' father abandoned his wife & children and in time two of them went into the care of Dr. Barnardo. Elizabeth Amelia Smith (b. 1878) was the eldest and old enough to work but died at 26 in 1905 after having one child out of wedlock, a son named George Roland Smith (b. 1899) who also came to Canada but we have never found out what became of him either; perhaps in time he returned to England or went to the U.S. Next was a daughter named Alice (b. 1880) but we know nothing of her either and surmise that she must have died young. The next two were Ada (b. 1882) & Albert George (b. 1885), both of whom went to Barnardo & then were sent to Canada. Charles (b. 1888 in Chelsea) was able to stay with his mother and one of his nieces from Canada visited him in the Manchester area. Sadly she died and her children have no other info about him. We do have a picture of him with his wife and son but with no identifying information on it. His mother seems to have married two more times - first to a Crisp and then to John Whittaker in 1904. John Whittaker died before 1920 and we believe she lived her last years with Charles & family.
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I am not familiar with what is provided on the 1939 register, but I was wondering if Charles and family would be on it.
I don't have a subscription to Findmypast, but had a look on the free part and this came up:
Charles Smith 1888 Manchester C.B. Lancashire
Jamjar
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hello,
do you have Charles with his mother in 1891 or 1901?
I might be looking at the wrong Eliza but the details in 1881, where she is the mother of Elizabeth Amelia and Alice, and the 1911 census entry for Elizabeth Whittaker don't match with age or birthplace.
I see you don't have a death for Alice but do you have a birth/baptism for Ada and the same for Charles?
heywood
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Correct; I have no further information on Alice. Ada was born 21 Mar 1882 according to Canadian records. For Charles I just have 1888 in Chelsea. Eliza married John Whittaker 22 Mar 1904 in London. Prior to that I am assuming she was using the surname Crisp in the 1890's. By 1911 Charles would have been living on his own somewhere. The census records have not helped me find Eliza either.
Alice certainly could have married and had a family but the Canadian part of the family know nothing about her and with a name like Alice Smith it is very hard to confirm a match.
I do thank you for looking!
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I did see an earlier thread where you mentioned the birth place here
1911 Elizabeth Whittaker b 1862 Paddington
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW85-3HN Is this Elizabeth?
1881 Eliza Smith b 1855 Devon
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK65-6W6T
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Here is the earlier thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=583586.18
You mention here Elizabeth Crisp, maiden name Rose that her father was Alfred, a farmer.
When Eliza Amelia Rose married George Albert Smyth, her father shows as Charles Rose , watchmaker.
I am just puzzled.
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I think someone else said that Elizabeth's father was Alfred. I have him shown as Charles, watchmaker, who died before she married in 1877. And yes, according to info given on one census record she was born in Paddington.
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It is an old thread but in reply #18 you say you have the marriage certificate of Elizabeth Crisp with her father as Alfred Rose, a farmer.
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Now I am thoroughly confused as Reply #18 is on page 1 of that thread and I see nothing about Alfred Rose being the father.
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Here is the reply -18 on the thread I quoted - page 3
The marriage record for John Whittaker and Elizabeth Crisp has now arrived. It shows that Elizabeth was a widow and that her maiden name was Rose - daughter of an Alfred Rose whose occupation was farmer. This seems a bit odd as I doubt there were farmers in Paddington but I may be wrong! At any rate this new information has not helped me locate the family in the 1861 or 1871 census records or in the London births :( Elizabeth seems to have been born sometime between 1857 and 1861 depending on which record you use. Any other suggestions?
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I wonder why we are seeing two very different #18's when I use the link you posted? Mine says:
« Reply #18 on: Saturday 25 February 12 14:50 GMT (UK) »
Hi Dawn,
Yes, I had come up with the same conclusion you did re Elizabeth Crisp. I gather after Mr. Smith died she married someone else before then marrying John Whittaker. The 1911 census shows them as having been married for 7 years so that certainly fits with the 1904 date. When she included the street address where she was born I thought I could zero in on her family but no such luck. And no, I have no marriage date to Mr. Smith and have different first names for him in the marriage records of two of his children - "James" in one of them and "Albert George" in another! Since (if we go by 1911 census info) Elizabeth was born about 1862 and she had children by 1884 and possibly before, I would guess she married somewhere between 1880 & 1883. Family stories say Mr. Smith was a policeman and his son's marriage record says he was a "police sergeant".
Thank you for your interest!
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How strange.
I have that reply as number 17 on page 2 and the one I have quoted is the next one.
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#18 begins: The marriage record for John Whittaker and Elizabeth Crisp has now arrived.
Jamjar
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#18 begins: The marriage record for John Whittaker and Elizabeth Crisp has now arrived.
Jamjar
I have copied and quoted in full above
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Yes, I know, I was simply confirming that you were correct in saying it was #18.
Jamjar
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Sorry Jamjar - I was just pointing out that the references were there if Jennie couldn't find it.
Jenn,
Do you have the children in 1891? I think I saw a reference to Albert and Charles is with mum
but just found the girls in Ilford.
1891 1370/109/32
Elizabeth Amelia, Ada and Alice.
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I had seen these two census for 1881 and 1891 - are these the correct ones?
Census 1881: North Street, Chelsea, Middlesex
Piece 85 /Folio 13 /Pg 20
Albert Smith 27, Bootmaker, b Paddington Mdx
Eliza Smith 26, Dressmaker, b Devon, Devonshire
Dau: Elizabeth 2, b Chelsea
Dau: Alice 9 mths, b Chelsea
Census 1891: Chelsea North, Middlesex
Piece: 58/ Folio 50/Pg 16/
482 Kings Road, Chelsea, in 3 rooms at that multi headed address:
Head: Henrietta KINNER 66, Widow, Living on own means, b France
Serv: Eliza SMITH 34, Housekeeper, b Devon
Son-in-law: Charles SMITH 2, b Chelsea
Jenn, I'm wondering about the neice who is said to have visited Charles in Manchester.
Are we able to have her details and see if we can find her on passenger lists - it's possible she may list Charles' address on the manifests (where going to) (from whence came) etc?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Replying to Ambly...
(For some reason I don't even see my post from yesterday showing- where I spoke of the marriage of John Whittaker & Eliza/Elizabeth (Rose) Smith??)
Thank you for the two census listings. By 1891 Eliza's husband was gone and she was struggling to look after herself and her children. This is what led to her allowing Ada & Albert to go into the care of Dr. Barnardo's organization & we purchased his records from them.
The niece who visited Charles was Albert's (the son of Eliza) daughter Barbara, b. 1924. She was a Smith & married Arthur Stevens and they were both with the Salvation Army. They or she (not sure if he went too or not) went to England for something to do with the Salvation Army and while there went to visit Charles & family. So, I doubt his name & address would have been given but at least it would indicate that he was still living at that time.
Thanks so much!
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Charles was the only child able to remain with his mother so what you found certainly is in line with that; thank you. I will look at the listing for the girls.
Sorry Jamjar - I was just pointing out that the references were there if Jennie couldn't find it.
Jenn,
Do you have the children in 1891? I think I saw a reference to Albert and Charles is with mum
but just found the girls in Ilford.
1891 1370/109/32
Elizabeth Amelia, Ada and Alice.
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Both would appear to be the right person but why the discrepancy in places of birth I don't know! Perhaps she lived in Paddington at one time and gave that as her place of birth.
Jennifer
I did see an earlier thread where you mentioned the birth place here
1911 Elizabeth Whittaker b 1862 Paddington
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW85-3HN Is this Elizabeth?
1881 Eliza Smith b 1855 Devon
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK65-6W6T
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Thank you so much for the link to the 3 girls! How horrible though that they were living in the 'Girls Village Home for Orphan Neglected and Destitute Girls'. Do you recall where you saw Albert listed?
Jennifer
Sorry Jamjar - I was just pointing out that the references were there if Jennie couldn't find it.
Jenn,
Do you have the children in 1891? I think I saw a reference to Albert and Charles is with mum
but just found the girls in Ilford.
1891 1370/109/32
Elizabeth Amelia, Ada and Alice.
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I agree with the sightings Ambly has posted re Eliza.
Is this Albert in 1891 849/32/2
Harting, Sussex
Geo Chitty 51 yrs
Ruth Chitty 46 yrs
Harriet Chitty 14 yrs
William Chitty 10 yrs
Albert G Smith boarder 5yrs b London
Arthur Denham boarder 5 yrs
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It certainly could be! Thank you again. Not sure why he wound up there but I suppose it all depended on who would take the children. The Barnardo report says that his mother tried to keep him with her but the woman she worked for wouldn't continue to employ her if she did because he was too noisy!
I agree with the sightings Ambly has posted re Eliza.
Is this Albert in 1891 849/32/2
Harting, Sussex
Geo Chitty 51 yrs
Ruth Chitty 46 yrs
Harriet Chitty 14 yrs
William Chitty 10 yrs
Albert G Smith boarder 5yrs b London
Arthur Denham boarder 5 yrs
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Both would appear to be the right person but why the discrepancy in places of birth I don't know! Perhaps she lived in Paddington at one time and gave that as her place of birth.
Jennifer
Jennifer,
It's all so sad!
May I ask how you know that Eliza Amelia (Rose) Smith became Elizabeth Crisp then Elizabeth Whittaker.
I am puzzled and worried about the different fathers and the year and place of birth discrepancies.
Heywood
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Hi
Marriages Sep 1896 (>99%)
De Bell Joseph Henry Wandsworth 1d 1181
Smith Eliza Amelia Wandsworth 1d 1181
Squibb James Wandsworth 1d 1181
Sullivan Margaret Wandsworth 1d 1181
mother or daughter ?
Regards Marj
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What I posted yesterday seems never to appeared here so I shall try to retype much of what I said which may answer some of your questions.
The family in Canada knows for sure that Eliza/Elizabeth Smith married John Whittaker (Mar. 1904) and ironically John's youngest daughter Rose Whittaker (b. 1892) married Albert George Smith in 1919. Albert served in the Canadian Forces during WWI and they must have connected during his time in England. Rose came back to Canada with him that year. John Whittaker's marriage record says that he married an Eliza Crisp so I was assuming that she had married someone else after her husband abandoned her or else she gave a false name or an incorrect one was recorded.
All of Eliza's children had the same father so I think you are referring to the discrepancy in her father's names. On the 1911 census, when she is listed with John Whittaker as his wife (name shown as 'Elizaburth') she says she was born in Paddington and gives an exact street address. 4 or 5 years ago I tried researching that address and any who may have lived there but I did not find any connections at all. I have just hauled out all the old files and will see if there is anything on any record that would help but I am quite sure I was very careful before ever putting them away.
Perhaps Charles Smith and his older sister Alice wound up having happy lives in adulthood; we can only hope so! The eldest sister Elizabeth Amelia Smith died at the age of 26, unmarried, with a 5 year old son named George Roland Smith. Dr. Barnardo's records say that he was sent to Quebec in Canada but I can find nothing on him here. We know nothing more about Alice. Ada & brother Albert worked for various people when sent to Canada before they were teenagers. It would seem though that there was some contact with their mother as Ada had a picture of her mother as an older woman.
Both would appear to be the right person but why the discrepancy in places of birth I don't know! Perhaps she lived in Paddington at one time and gave that as her place of birth.
Jennifer
Jennifer,
It's all so sad!
May I ask how you know that Eliza Amelia (Rose) Smith became Elizabeth Crisp then Elizabeth Whittaker.
I am puzzled and worried about the different fathers and the year and place of birth discrepancies.
Heywood
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I *think* it would be the mother if it's the right person but I believe there were other Eliza Amelia Smith's with Smith being the maiden name. Records indicate that the daughter's name was Elizabeth Amelia and that she never married. She would have been 17 or 18 in 1896.
Hi
Marriages Sep 1896 (>99%)
De Bell Joseph Henry Wandsworth 1d 1181
Smith Eliza Amelia Wandsworth 1d 1181
Squibb James Wandsworth 1d 1181
Sullivan Margaret Wandsworth 1d 1181
mother or daughter ?
Regards Marj
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I realise we are going off the search for Charles but I would imagine that is going to be very difficult because of the surname.
Thanks for the explanation re the Whittakers. I just couldn't see the connection.
I can't see any connection to Eliza/Elizabeth Rose but the male at that address in 1861 and 1871 has a Devon birthplace.
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I guess so often we have to work back in the family line before we can move forward so it's all pertinent. Thanks for pointing out the Devon connection. Some things we may never know which is why we were so hopeful we might find any descendants of Charles...
I realise we are going off the search for Charles but I would imagine that is going to be very difficult because of the surname.
Thanks for the explanation re the Whittakers. I just couldn't see the connection.
I can't see any connection to Eliza/Elizabeth Rose but the male at that address in 1861 and 1871 has a Devon birthplace.
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I have just come across a photograph on which someone wrote "Charles & wife, 1962, Manchester". So he lived until at least then and possibly for some years after that. In checking the deaths in the Manchester area from then on there are a more than a few who would have been born the same year he was. If only the photo had his wife's name on it!
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That's frustrating.