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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: MiniHistory on Wednesday 27 July 16 10:26 BST (UK)

Title: Carlton/Burchall family
Post by: MiniHistory on Wednesday 27 July 16 10:26 BST (UK)
My husband's ancestor was Ivan Owen Carlton, born in New Zealand around 1863, parents John Carlton and Elizabeth Burchall. These details come from his Australian death certificate in 1928, when his age was given as 65, so I can't guarantee they are correct. He married in Tasmania in 1889, giving his age as 26 so at least those two certificates agree.

I've looked for evidence of Ivan and/or his parents in New Zealand but haven't turned up anything definite. Burchall could be spelled a number of ways.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Carlton/Burchall family
Post by: spades on Wednesday 27 July 16 10:53 BST (UK)
Hi MiniHistory,

I can't find a New Zealand (or a UK - FreeBMD) marriage for the parents, or any record of either of them in New Zealand, nor any reference to Ivan or a New Zealand birth.

Spades

Title: Re: Carlton/Burchall family
Post by: MiniHistory on Wednesday 27 July 16 10:56 BST (UK)
Hi Spades. At least I know I wasn't being utterly incompetent when I went searching :)
Thank you for looking.
-Mini
Title: Re: Carlton/Burchall family
Post by: spades on Wednesday 27 July 16 10:57 BST (UK)
Might his parents have married in AUS and perhaps only spent a short time in New Zealand?

Can you tell us what else you know about Ivan?

Spades
Title: Re: Carlton/Burchall family
Post by: spades on Wednesday 27 July 16 11:03 BST (UK)
Don't worry, they are a very skilled and determined bunch here on the New Zealand Board, you just have to stop them rolling Jaffas down the aisles, mumble mumble ;D. Can you provide us with full transcriptions of those certificates, please? Everything's helps.

For instance, is John CARLTON's occupation given? And where or when he married?

Spades



Title: Re: Carlton/Burchall family
Post by: Janette on Wednesday 27 July 16 11:25 BST (UK)
Make way jaffas rolling  ;D ;D

They married 25th Dec,1889 and Ivan's occupation was stonemason,Rosa Gilders was a widow

Cheers Janette  :P :P
Title: Re: Carlton/Burchall family
Post by: spades on Wednesday 27 July 16 11:29 BST (UK)
 :P :P ::) Don't forget to pick them up later.

Er...we're after John and Elizabeth's marriage...
Title: Re: Carlton/Burchall family
Post by: Janette on Wednesday 27 July 16 11:37 BST (UK)
Oooops ??? ??? ???


Cheers Janette
Title: Re: Carlton/Burchall family
Post by: MiniHistory on Thursday 28 July 16 00:49 BST (UK)
Rolling jaffas? Heavens! Too good to roll ;D

As you said, Janette, Ivan married widowed Rosa Gilders (born Berwick) in Campbell Town, Tasmania, on 25th December 1889. He gave his age as 26, his occupation as stonemason, and his condition as a bachelor. The witnesses were locals and Rosa was born and bred in Tasmania, so there doesn't appear to be any extra information to be gleaned there beyond the fact that Ivan was presumably born around 1863. Old Tasmanian certificates give the bare minimum.

They had three surviving children in Tasmania then moved to Melbourne between 1902 and 1906. Rosa died there in 1906. Ivan died in July 1928 in Melbourne. He was a successful painter and decorator - supposedly worked on the Princess Theatre in Melbourne. His death certificate gives his age as 65, agreeing with his marriage certificate. Under parent details we have father John Carlton, occupation unknown, and mother Elizabeth Carlton, formerly Burchall. Under Where born and how long in the Australian states, it states, (born in) New Zealand, New Zealand for 35 years, Tasmania for 10 years, and Victoria for 20 years.

Those figures add up to his age but they can't be correct. Assuming he was born in 1863 he couldn't have been in NZ for more than 26 years (1863-1889), and then he was in Tasmania for at least 13 years (1889-1902 when the last child was born in Tasmania) and then he would have been in Victoria for more than 20 years since his wife died there in 1906, 22 years before Ivan. The informant was the undertaker and I'm guessing there was a bit of guesswork involved. Also, the death certificate gives his age at marriage as 30 years (I think - the certificate is rather indistinct). Goodness knows where that came from.

It's a long while since I hunted through the Tasmanian records to see if he was actually born there, but I found nothing. I've checked Queensland and New South Wales records and come up empty-handed. In Victoria, a John Watson Carlton married an Eliza Ball in 1854 and had a son James Creighton  the following year, then nothing else recorded.  John Watson C. disappears off the electoral rolls the following year so it's possible they went to NZ (working on the possibility that Eliza Ball = Elizabeth Burchall). * See next post.

I wonder if any of this sets those jaffas rolling at all. It's lovely to "speak" to people with an interest in NZ since that's where I grew up. This tiny and vague toehold in my husband's tree is the only other NZ connection apart from my parents and me.

Cheers

Mini
Title: Re: Carlton/Burchall family
Post by: MiniHistory on Thursday 28 July 16 01:29 BST (UK)
No, cancel that possible connection with John Watson Carlton. It seems he died and Eliza remarried back in England. Besides which, they appear to be very much out of our league, i.e. rich :)
Title: Re: Carlton/Burchall family
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 28 July 16 01:44 BST (UK)
Hi Mini

Have found nothing to date re:  CARLTON / BURCHALL (or variants) which might link to your Ivan Owen CARLTON.  :(

The following though, caught my attention.  ???

Tasmania Police Gazette - 1887 (date on previous image is 18 February 1887)

Warrants Issued :   

Owen BUCHILL


Bothwell - Owen BUCHILL is charged with larceny as a bailee on warrant issued by A. McDOWALL, Esquire, on 15 instant with having appropriated to his own use the sum of 10s, the property of Philip SMITH.
Description:    [Abbreviated]  ... Aged 25 years ... height 5ft 6in ... light brown har, dark moustache ... Stonemason ... lately working at Oatlands, now supposed to be working at No. 2 Bridge, Derwent Valley Railway Line :

In another reference - 1887 corrections to previous listings in the Tasmania Police Gazette -  under a heading "Miscellaneous Info." >

BUCHILL, Owen .... as BIRCHILL, Owen


My thoughts :   Birchall (however spelled) is a rather uncommon name ... and the above coupled with the forename "Owen"  ... born circa 1862 ... with an occupation of stonemason, plus location, Tasmania,  makes me think this could well be "your man".   ???

  ~  Lu


Title: Re: Carlton/Burchall family
Post by: MiniHistory on Thursday 28 July 16 02:59 BST (UK)
How very interesting! I'll have to think about this. Thanks, Lu!!

I thought about it for a minute or two then recalled that Ivan Carlton was about 6'4". My father-in-law recalled his grandfather as being very tall, even in old(ish) age. Still, the name combination, etc. is intriguing.