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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: janjones on Friday 29 July 16 06:19 BST (UK)

Title: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: janjones on Friday 29 July 16 06:19 BST (UK)
I am trying to trace the birth details of my great great grandfather Charles Jones who was born in 1825 and married Susannah Osborne 26 April 1857 in Worcestershire. They moved to Australia and I believe Charles was a remittance man.

I do not know Charles Jones parents names and as they are my great great great grandparents I wish to find out who they were so I can give this information to my baby granddaughter.
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Kay99 on Friday 29 July 16 06:32 BST (UK)
Hello and Welcome to RootsChat :)

Do you have a copy of the marriage cert which hopefully should list his father's name and occupation  and also Charles's occupation with any witnesses

Kay
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 29 July 16 06:49 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat.

I'm Australian and I have no idea what a remittance man is.  ;D

Please give the details of when and where in Australia as it helps to work backwards.

Also children's names.

What Australian certificates do you have?

Jamjar
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: KGarrad on Friday 29 July 16 08:09 BST (UK)
From Wikipedia:

A remittance man is a historic term for an emigrant, often from Britain to a colony, supported by regular payments from home, on the expectation that he stay away.

Within Victorian British culture, a remittance man was usually the black sheep of an upper or middle-class family who was sent away (from the United Kingdom to the Empire), and paid to stay away. These men were generally of dissolute or drunken character, and may have been sent overseas after one or more disgraces at home.
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 29 July 16 08:13 BST (UK)
From Wikipedia:

A remittance man is a historic term for an emigrant, often from Britain to a colony, supported by regular payments from home, on the expectation that he stay away.

Within Victorian British culture, a remittance man was usually the black sheep of an upper or middle-class family who was sent away (from the United Kingdom to the Empire), and paid to stay away. These men were generally of dissolute or drunken character, and may have been sent overseas after one or more disgraces at home.

Most interesting  ;D

Jamjar
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 29 July 16 08:34 BST (UK)
Charles Jones who was born in 1825 and married Susannah Osborne 26 April 1857 in Worcestershire.

They married at Norton Juxta Kempsey, which is just to the south of Worcester https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1560195,-2.2055239,13z
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Kay99 on Friday 29 July 16 08:39 BST (UK)
Charles Jones who was born in 1825 and married Susannah Osborne 26 April 1857 in Worcestershire.

They married at Norton Juxta Kempsey, which is just to the south of Worcester https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1560195,-2.2055239,13z

If you haven't got the marriage cert and are certain it is the right couple I can check details in Worcester next week

Kay
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 29 July 16 08:52 BST (UK)
How certain are you of Charles' birth year - on the various family trees on ancestry, his birth year varies each way by about 10 years !!

If you don't already have his marriage cert, getting that to see his profession and the name of his father would be invaluable.
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 29 July 16 09:19 BST (UK)
I'm looking at a tree that covers it all. Susannah's death cert says Charles was a shoemaker.


Jamjar
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 29 July 16 09:55 BST (UK)
Is that the tree that gives Charles' date of birth as 1835, in Shropshire?
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 29 July 16 09:58 BST (UK)
No, it isn't.

I'll PM the link.

It's well documented, for the wife, but what is missing is the marriage cert.

The unassisted immigration idea doesn't work.


Jamjar.

Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 29 July 16 10:57 BST (UK)
That tree doesn't give Charles' death, which I think is recorded in the Ballarat Star on 12 Apr 1897 -

Jones - on the 11th April at the Benevolent Asylum, Charles Jones, formerly of Kidderminster, England, lately of Ballarat East, aged 72 years

So would his death cert give his parents details?
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Christine53 on Friday 29 July 16 11:48 BST (UK)

Jones - on the 11th April at the Benevolent Asylum, Charles Jones, formerly of Kidderminster, England, lately of Ballarat East, aged 72 years


Index of Victoria deaths gives Charles Jones 72  died 1897, parents Joseph & Jane Jones.
Victoria Reg No 3861. One of the online trees gives father as Henry , a cordwainer, and indicates that the owner has the marriage cert for Charles and Susannah but doesn't give any other details.

Edit - death in Ballarat.
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 29 July 16 11:54 BST (UK)
That tree doesn't give Charles' death, which I think is recorded in the Ballarat Star on 12 Apr 1897 -

Jones - on the 11th April at the Benevolent Asylum, Charles Jones, formerly of Kidderminster, England, lately of Ballarat East, aged 72 years

So would his death cert give his parents details?

Yes, that's his death and I wonder why they haven't got it on the tree?

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i35/

Jamjar
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 29 July 16 12:03 BST (UK)
Shouldn't he be on the '41 census?

Jamjar
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 29 July 16 12:23 BST (UK)
Shouldn't he be on the '41 census?

Jamjar

And the '51!
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 29 July 16 12:39 BST (UK)
That tree doesn't give Charles' death, which I think is recorded in the Ballarat Star on 12 Apr 1897 -

Jones - on the 11th April at the Benevolent Asylum, Charles Jones, formerly of Kidderminster, England, lately of Ballarat East, aged 72 years

So would his death cert give his parents details?

There is a register of inmates of the Benevolent Asylum http://www.ballarathistoricalsociety.com/index.php/the-collection/bbsr/bbsr-i Charles features possibly twice.  He gives his parents as Henery (sic) and Jane on one, and Joseph and Jane on another! ::)  Pretty sure that Jane is his mother.........
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 29 July 16 12:46 BST (UK)
There is a register of inmates of the Benevolent Asylum http://www.ballarathistoricalsociety.com/index.php/the-collection/bbsr/bbsr-i Charles features possibly twice.  He gives his parents as Henery (sic) and Jane on one, and Joseph and Jane on another! ::)  Pretty sure that Jane is his mother.........

That said, on the entry which gives his parents names as Joseph and Jane, his death date is given as 21 Jan 1904  >:(
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 29 July 16 13:10 BST (UK)
I reckon it's Henry and Jane then, as it says he was in for a hurt back and not senility.  ;)

Then again it says he arrived in the colony in 1855, which I doubt is correct if he was in UK getting married in 1857.

Birth 1824-25 is consistent.

I'll go with the newspaper as being the correct death.

Jamjar
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 29 July 16 13:15 BST (UK)
That one with folk J and J have him arriving in Aus in 1953.  ;D

Looks like he died in there, also.

VicBDM has Joseph and Jane for a death of 1897

Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 29 July 16 15:14 BST (UK)
That one with folk J and J have him arriving in Aus in 1953.  ;D

Looks like he died in there, also.

VicBDM has Joseph and Jane for a death of 1897

There is a Charles Jones arriving Dec 1852 on the "Bride".  He gives his age as 28 and profession as Saddler.
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 29 July 16 15:27 BST (UK)
I think that seeing the marriage cert and finding out the profession and name of his father would be a big help!!!
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Kay99 on Tuesday 02 August 16 12:33 BST (UK)
Went to the Hive in today.  On the marriage cert Charles is listed as full age - a Cordwainer of the parish of Norton with father Henry Jones - also Cordwainer.   Susannah Osborne is listed as of parish with father John Osborne - Blacksmith.  Susannah's age is unclear but the writing in very poor.  Witnesses Robert Kings and Mary Ann Wak....?

Kay

Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Jamjar on Tuesday 02 August 16 12:41 BST (UK)
Kay, so does that mean that we have the correct chap? The father is Henry, but the occupation is not consistent.

Jamjar

Added: Just looked up cordwainer and it is a shoemaker  ;D
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Jamjar on Tuesday 02 August 16 12:49 BST (UK)
Susannah's death:

1871 Reg no 3165

Susannah Jones

Father John Osborne

Mother Elizabeth (Unknown)

Place of birth WORC

Age 33

Spouse's given names Charles


Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Kay99 on Tuesday 02 August 16 12:54 BST (UK)
It looks possible.  The occupation cordwainer/shoemaker looks to follow through for both father and son.  But I still can't see either in the previous census years

Kay
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Jamjar on Tuesday 02 August 16 13:18 BST (UK)
I believe this is Susannah on the '51
Crowle, Worcestershire, England
Droitwich
Crowle Village
Age 15
House Servant
Birth Year (Estimated) 1836
Birthplace    Whittington, Worcestershire
Page Number 3
Registration Number HO107
Piece/Folio    2046 / 34

Birth/Christening:
Susanna Osborne 30 Jul 1837
Christening Place Whittington, Worcester, England
Father's Name John Osborne
Mother's Name Elizabeth

They are a large family on the '41:
Page Number 11
Registration Number HO107
Piece/Folio 1202/8
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Jamjar on Tuesday 02 August 16 15:27 BST (UK)
Children of Charles and Susannah:

Births

Mary Ann 1857 Reg no. 14694

Harry 1859 Reg no. 2054

Alice Jane (Jonese) 1862 Reg no. 617

Frederick 1865 Reg no. 13301

Eva 1868 Reg no. 6794

Deaths

Mary Ann 1857 Reg no. 6488

Harry 1904 Reg no.353

Frederick 1930 Reg no.12347
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: janjones on Thursday 04 August 16 06:25 BST (UK)
Thank you lovely people for your responses. Dear Kay99 I don't have the marriage certificate and I understand that his parents are not listed on it in any case.  He is a mystery man I heard that he was sent to Australia in disgrace because he married his aristocrat mother's secretary who was Susannah Osborne.  I don't have confirmation of his year of birth even. He was from Kidderminster, Worcestershire.  Their first child was born in Australia, please see following.
"Children of Charles JONES and Susannah OSBORNE:
1. Mary Ann JONES b 1857 Ballarat d/o Charles/Susannah OSBORNE [Vic 14694]
Mary Ann JONES died 1857 Ballarat aged 5 weeks d/o Charles/Susannah [Vic 6488]
Mary Ann JONES age 5 wks, Specimen Hill (later known as Eureka Street), Ballarat bur 9 Nov 1857 Ballarat Old Cemetery [Location not known]"
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: janjones on Thursday 04 August 16 06:33 BST (UK)


Dear Jamjar
Thank you for the list of their children. Eva Carrington Jones was my great grandmother the mother of my Grandmother who was also called Eva Carrington with surname Martin as her mother married Henry Martin.
I found a sketchy record of a family of Carringtons headed by Joseph residing in Kidderminster from an 1841 census.  All the members of the family have ??Carrington next to each record??
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Jamjar on Thursday 04 August 16 07:03 BST (UK)
It would appear that the Eva born to Charles and Susannah doesn't have the middle name Carrington. Do you have her marriage or death certificate?

The only death to fit has 'Unknown' for both parents and a name of Eva Letitia Martin. An online family tree suggest this is the daughter of Charles and Susannah. Not sure with a cordwainer father that his mother would have been an aristocrat, but nothing would surprise me with family tree research.

Jamjar
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Kay99 on Thursday 04 August 16 07:11 BST (UK)
Hi Jan

I had a look at the 1857 marriage record on the parish records in Worcester this week and posted the results below. As we can't find him under the name Jones in earlier census years I do wonder if the surname Jones was an alias?? 

Went to the Hive in today.  On the marriage cert Charles is listed as full age - a Cordwainer of the parish of Norton with father Henry Jones - also Cordwainer.   Susannah Osborne is listed as of parish with father John Osborne - Blacksmith.  Susannah's age is unclear but the writing in very poor.  Witnesses Robert Kings and Mary Ann Wak....?
Kay

Also attaching an extract of a pm you sent to me so the info might be of use to other helpers

"I think his records were expunged or altered by his family.  There is no record of him being on the same ship as his wife Susannah when she sailed to Australia in 1857.
I suspect his father's name was Joseph and mother's name was Jane.
There is a record of him living in Ballarat with his son Harry until 1890 then he left for England or Queensland.
Susannah died in 1871. He probably was a drinker as he always had five pound notes to throw around. I guess he was an unhappy man, very sad.
"Charles JONES age 66 (b abt 1824), Residence: Stonefield (Steinfeld) Street, Ballarat, Single, Bootmaker, Religion: C of E, Admitted 5 May 1890, Discharged 20 May 1890, Relieved, Birthplace England, 30 yrs in Victoria (arr abt 1860), Recommender: Gas Company [Ballarat Base Hospital Admissions Index Sep 1856-1913]
Family members thought that Charles JONES was living with his son Harry in 1890 (at 40 Steinfeld Street) then left Victoria either for England or Queensland."

Kay
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Kay99 on Thursday 04 August 16 07:37 BST (UK)
I found a sketchy record of a family of Carringtons headed by Joseph residing in Kidderminster from an 1841 census.  All the members of the family have ??Carrington next to each record??

The 1841 census for Joseph Carrington is very faint on the image but I think this is the same family in 1851 living at Horsefair, Kidderminster  with all children born Kidderminster   Joseph is a Master Bootmaker!

Joseph Carrington 49 Boot Maker (Master)    London
Jane    Carrington   53    Alveley, Shropshire,
Charlotte    Carrington 1834 Shoe Binder    Worcestershire    
George Carrington 16 Hand Loom Weaver (Carpet)
Jane    Carrington 12    House Servant
Rebecca    Carrington 9 Scholar
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: janjones on Friday 05 August 16 09:21 BST (UK)
Thank you all again.   
Yes I believe Charles Jones was an alias.
If we could find out where Susannah Osborne was a servant when aged 15 to 18 that might be a lead if we knew the name of the family for whom she worked.
Charles Jones records on the Ballarat Asylum reflects five lines of inmates named Charles Jones, some don't mention any parents names, some entries do.
Jones is a common surname and therefore a perfect surname to use as an alias. 
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Spidermonkey on Friday 05 August 16 09:38 BST (UK)
If Charles did marry under an alias, and he was a member of the gentry, then I feel that he couldn't have been 'a local' because surely someone would have said "That's not Charles Jones, that's Lord Tarquin Farquhar, son of Marmaduke and Magdalene"

Do we have a definite sighting of Charles and Susannah arriving in Aus?
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: trish1120 on Friday 05 August 16 12:39 BST (UK)
To add to the mix we have;
Robert CARRINGTON, age 25 (1826) born Kidderminster, Occp Cordwainer, lodging there in 1851
Census.
Down as Married.
FreeBMD has a Marriage Reg 1850

Looks like he married Mary Ann STEPHENS.
1851 she is a lodger, age 19, with a Son Frederick age 1
Mary Ann is born c 1832 Kiddrr

1861 she is calling herself a Widow and living with her Siblings.
Se now has a Son Alfred age 8;
John Stevens, 24, Head
Mary Carrington, 28, Sister, Widow, Tailoress, born Stourbridge
Alfred Carrington, 8, Nephew
Dinah Stevens, 17, Sister

Cant find any Death Reg for a Robert Carrington before 1861

Did he desert her?


The Robert above seems to fit the 1841;
Joseph Carrington, 35
Jane Carrington, 40
Robert Carrington, 12
Frederick Carrington, 11
Blanche Carrington, 8
George Carrington, 6
Jane Carrington, 3
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: janjones on Saturday 06 August 16 04:39 BST (UK)
Hi Trish1120 and thank you for your addition to this subject.

Are you related to Robert Carrington and descendants?

I have done some searching and I believe that Jones is an alias and the real surname is not Jones and originally not Carrington and so trying now to trace through Charles' wife Susannah.

Hi Spidermonkey thank you for all your additions to this subject

No evidence of them arriving together and Charles Jones was not even listed as a passenger on the same ship as Susannah Jones nee Osborne.

Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: trish1120 on Saturday 06 August 16 13:31 BST (UK)
Hi janjones,
No I am not related to Robert or descendants.

Robert Carrington just interested me as a possible suspect for Charles Jones.

Marriage;
26 June 1827, St. Mary'S, Kidderminster, Worcester
Joseph William CARRINGTON to Jane BRADNEY

I must say he must be incredibly frustrating for you!
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: janjones on Saturday 06 August 16 15:42 BST (UK)
Hi Trish1120

Thank you. I don't think Robert Carrington was Charles Jones but an interesting story. Yes it has been frustrating our search for Charles Jones origins. My brother, aunt and sister all drew blanks when they did research on him.  I am grateful though to everyone on Roots who has contributed to my search as their responses have made me dig deeper and I may have finally found out the details of his birth and parents but need to try and confirm this.
Janjones
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: fauxy lady on Thursday 23 March 17 05:57 GMT (UK)
Hi jan This is how I fit in. Susannah &Charles Jones/ Alice Jones  & George Giles/Albert & Violet Giles/ Zella Giles & Eric Maple/ Susan Maple & Ron Faux. I have been tracking Charles for years. I wrote to Lord Carrington years ago and he said no relation.  I  think our best bet would be finding a descendant of a cousin in England :) that may know about Susannah marriage. On the Osborne side they are Osborne, Whadcoat, Lawrence and Stevens. Charles married a second time in 8.7.1873 to Margaret Floyd (nee Carrig)
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: fauxy lady on Thursday 10 May 18 09:38 BST (UK)
Trish1120 you were right. Charles Jones was Robert Carrington. Lots of checks and help from a wonderful English gentleman. Finally proven by the magic of dna through his mother Jane Bradney. Fauxy Lady
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: trish1120 on Thursday 10 May 18 11:38 BST (UK)
Well thanks for the update fauxy lady.

Wow, I am so happy that DNA clinched it.

Its quite a story :)
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: trish1120 on Thursday 10 May 18 12:24 BST (UK)
I presume you have Jane Bradneys christening 28 October 1798, Alverley, Shropshire to JOHN/SARAH
Siblings;
JOHN 8 April 1792, buried 6 October 1793
MARY 11 May 1794
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: fauxy lady on Thursday 10 May 18 23:18 BST (UK)
Yes we have found out a good bit about her and are currently tracing Charles/Robert Carrington family so far not the Lord. 😊
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: Caz Harris on Monday 22 April 19 17:31 BST (UK)
I believe I may be a decendant of the mysterious Charles Jones (Robert Carrington). My great grandfather, Charles Wellman was born in Melbourne Australia but we could never find his birth recorded. We nearly gave up but then found a record of a Charles Jones and his sister being taken into care (or whatever the term was then - his sister died shortly afterwards) and him being linked to Mr & Mrs Wellman on his records where it looks like he was adopted by them. We then found records of their birth and their father was Charles Jones originally of Worcester UK and their mother was Elizabeth Jones nee Cowell of the Isle of Man and Liverpool uk. The children had been abandoned by their father after their mother died. Various dates correspond so we believe he is the father. All in all, he sounds a bit of a scoundrel......
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: trish1120 on Tuesday 23 April 19 15:49 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat Caz.
Hopefully fauxy lady will reply to you soon.
The plot thickens :)
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: janjones on Wednesday 24 April 19 15:38 BST (UK)
thanks Trish1120

I just received a new notification from Geni.com that I have another DNA match with a lady who is related to the Carringtons who were ancestors of Robert Carrington and his father Joseph Carrington husband of Jane Bradney.

There is a new enquiry on here about a Charles Wellman from an Australian I will sms Fauxy Lady to let her know.
kind regards
JanJones

Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: janjones on Wednesday 24 April 19 15:52 BST (UK)
Hello Caz
Interesting family story you related.  I will sms Fauxy Lady who is my cousin and ask her to read your post on here.
kind regards
JanJones
Title: Re: Tracing information on Charles Jones born in Kidderminster UK in 1825
Post by: fauxy lady on Friday 26 April 19 04:59 BST (UK)
Hi all, Yes Caz is related to our Charles Jones who turned started life as Robert Carrington from Kidderminster son of Joseph William Carrington and his wife Jane Bradney. She descends from his third marriage as Charles Jones in Australia. Cheers Fauxy Lady