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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Merionethshire => Topic started by: ianocon on Saturday 30 July 16 19:54 BST (UK)
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Searching for birth & death details of William Williams (WW) killed abt. 1895 age abt. 22.
Family story is that Elizabeth Lloyd was pregnant when WW died (family not certain they were married) and named their son William Lloyd Williams (WLW) who died aged 67 in 1862 (hence est. birth year 1895). She lived for a while at Braichgoch farm near Corris
Elizabeth subsequently married Thomas Hughes when WLW was 6 or 7.
There are many William Williams in Merionethshire and help would be appreciated to identify the right one and hence to find his family of origin. In particular is there a source for quarry deaths that might provide more personal details of WW?
Ian
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Sorry, should be spelled Aberllefari Quarry.
Ian
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Have unpicked part of the puzzle.
Elizabeth Lloyd appears as Mary Elizabeth not Elizabeth. She marries Thomas Hughes in 1896 AMJ 11b 673 Dolgelly with name Mary Elizabeth Williams.
Significantly she is in 1901 census as Mary E Hughes with son William Ll Williams age 6 stepson, both born Corris she aged 26.
So WLW would have been born in 1894 or last Qtr 1895 but she would have become pregnant in 1894 so William Williams must have died in that year.
If someone can help with details of death or burial/ funeral probably in Corris then it may be possible to sort out which of the many William Williams is the father and provide the lead to his family
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The baptismal record,as well as giving Mary Elizabeth,shows the address to be Brynllwyd Farm.In the 1901 census there is a Jane Williams,widow,mother in law amongst the occupants.I suspect she traces back to to be the widow in the 1891 census,ref RG12/4641/55/1 at Aberllefeny(sic) Farm who has a son William Wiliams given born 1868,a slate miner.Seems a reasonable candidate to trace further.
Regards
Roger
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I can'tv find a death record that would match that William William's age that casts some doubt on the previous analysis.I'll look again.However,as the baptismal record appears to be for a married couple there is a marriage of Mary Lloyd to William Williams Sept qtr 1894,Dolgellau,to consider as an alternative source.NorthWalesBMD gives it as a civil ceremony,so no online record.
Regards
Roger
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Hi
I looked into this last night and found similar info to Roger. I delayed putting it up as I wanted to look further at deaths in local newspapers. This is what I wrote out:
There is a baptism for WLW in Corris 3 April 1895, aged 14 days, living ?Brynllwyd Farm. Mother is Mary Elizabeth Williams. WW is listed as a Quarryman. No mention if he's dead.
There is a burial of a William Williams 8 July 1894, aged 20, of ?Brynllwyd Farm. If this WW was WLW father, Mary Elizabeth would have been only a month or so pregnant when he died. I haven't found a marriage.
Nothing about the death in the Nat Lib newspaper collection so far.
Gadget
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This from the Nat Lib search:
Family Notices
…I { Vi iati a gt a u. Ebrill 25ain, yn swyddfa'r cofrestrydd Dol- gellau, yn mhresenoldeb Mr Thomas Parry, cofrestrydd, Mr Thomas Hughes, Greenfield Ter- race, Corris, a Mrs Mary Elizabeth Williams, Brynllwyd, Corris; y ddau o blwyf Talyllyn. Mai 2fed, drwy drwydded yn nghapet Park Road M.C., Abermaw; gan y Parch Peter Jones- Roberts, gweinidog y Wesleyaid, Mr John Wil- liams, 7 Marine Gardens a…
From Y Dydd 8/05/1896
Gadget
Added - link to Welsh Newspapers at the Nat Library: http://newspapers.library.wales/
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There is a possible match between this
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3860378/3860383/34/
and the death of a William Williams aged 20 in Dolgelly district Sept Qtr 1894.
Regards
Roger
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One possible William Williams of that age in the area in the 1891 census is at RG12/4641/85/1.
Regards
Roger
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Re the newspaper report in Welsh :
Ebrill 25ain, yn swyddfa'r cofrestrydd Dolgellau, yn mhresenoldeb Mr Thomas Parry, cofrestrydd, Mr Thomas Hughes, Greenfield Ter race, Corris, a Mrs Mary Elizabeth Williams, Brynllwyd, Corris
Translates as :
April 25th, at the Registry Office, Dolgellau, in the presence of Mr Thomas Parry, Registrar.............
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There is a possible match between this
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3860378/3860383/34/
and the death of a William Williams aged 20 in Dolgelly district Sept Qtr 1894.
Regards
Roger
Interesting that it says that 'he leaves a widow and 2 children' .
We can't give info from the 1911 but this might show in the fertility info for Elizabeth. It might be worth looking at Ian.
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Thanks Roger and Gadget.
Looks as if Brynwllyd Farm is a consistent link and dates all make sense.
Help me with the Welsh - could Mr John Williams of 7 Marine Terrace have been the father?
Ian
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Have found her in the 1911
She had 5 children 3 living, 2 dead. The three living would have been WLW and the two Hughes half brothers
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Believe Mary Lloyd and William Williams 1894 Dolgelly 11b 630 must be the marriage
ian
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Hi Ian
It appears from the 1891 that the Brynllwyd farm was occupied by the Lloyds - Mary E's parents were William and Grace. She also had a brother David. The newspapers show a David Lloyd, Brynllwyd, Corris, winning various prizes at agricultural shows - it might be him or someone else.
I think the John Williams, mentioned in the newspaper, was as a separate entry as there was a semi-colon between suggesting a list - I'll go look again
Gadget
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Full entry here ~
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3164298/3164303/28/mary%20Elizabeth%20Williams
It was a separate announcement.
Gadget
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The North Wales BMD shows the 1894 Dolgellau marriage (definitely Mary Lloyd to William Williams) as a civil marriage, so no parish record, sadly. Dolgellau ref is DOL/12/E117
North Wales BMD link: http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/index.php
Gadget
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Cant find a logical reason to decide which is William Williams family.
Most likely seems to be parents David 41 and mary 41 in 1881 with William 8 born Dolgelly. That would make him born abt 1873 which is close to being 20 at death in 1894
Roger - you mention RG12/4641/85/1 - am not sure how to identify which that is?
Regards Ian
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Hi Ian
The ref refers to the 1891 census in Aberllefeni, where a William Williams, aged 17, a slate quarryman, is living with his widowed mother, Margaret Willaims, and siblings Gwen, Lewis and Mary Jane.
I think Roger did mention this family earlier.
To find out who Williams's parents were, you might have to get the 1894 marriage cert.
Gadget
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I'm still wondering about the statement "...he leaves a widow and two children.."Had William been married before,despite only being 20?Was this why,if the 1894 marriage is correct,it was a civil ceremony?Could this be another way of identifying him?What happened to these two children?Were they born to Mary Elizabeth before marriage?Did they die/were they the two referred to in her fertility history?Grace Lloyd has two "later" grandchildren with her in 1901-who were these?What happened to them?
More questions than answers......
Regards
Roger
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Hi Gadget and Roger.
I have ordered the marriage certificate - agree it seems the only way to be sure.
Roger, I agree the widow and 2 children ref. does seem strange - unless it was just a reporter's mistake.
I am going to check again with my cousins to see if that info triggers any distant memories.
They are sure about WLW of course and of the two Hughes stepbrothers who they knew - which leaves the two who died by 1911. If it wasn't for the widow and 2 children reference in 1894, I would have assumed these must be two other Hughes children who died before 1911. There were plenty of years between 1896 (Hughes marriage) and 1911 for Mary Elizabeth to have had two who died. I wonder if I can find references for them - by a process of elimination that would explain the fertility information.
Checking for earlier births to Mary Elizabeth or William seems problematic - not least guessing what surname would they be registered with.
regards Ian
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Hi Ian
So far, I've only been able to find the baptism of WLW in the church records. No other definite baptisms or marriages.
I would think that the family might well be non-conformist, which would explain the civil marriages. As far as I can recall, the Lloyd/Davies marriage in 1866 was a civil one as well. One of my own lines were staunch Methodists and I could only find burials for them in the established church records. There is a non-conformist website where I found a few - might be worth looking:
http://www.bmdregisters.co.uk/
It might be worth looking for Hughes infant deaths post-1896 -1911. Other than that, burials might be the only way - linking to known addresses.
The 2 grandchildren with Grace in 1901 were both very young - 2 and 10 mths - which are most likely not Mary Elizabeth's
Gadget
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I think it's right that WW's mother is Margaret W, widow in 1891 with WW quarryman age 17
That would make him 20 in 1894.
She also widow in '81 and wife of John in '71 and '61 and 51.
I've ordered the certificate so hopefully this will confirm the parents as John and Margaret.
Still looking for the two children that died
Regards Ian
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It seems to me that if Thomas and Mary Elizabeth were capable of having children,one or more would have been born in the five years of marriage before the 1901 census,yet there are none with them then.Could this suggest the two deaths were in this first five years?Below is a list of all Dolgelly registered Hughes deaths from FreeBMD that fit the criteria,and the possibly more interesting ones are given as sub-district Talyllyn on NorthWalesBMD
Griffith Hughes aged 1 Mar qtr 1898
Letitia 0 Jun 1898
Thomas 0 Jun 1898
Anne 0 Mar 1899
David Arthur 4 Jun 1899(perhaps born too early?)
Elizabeth 0 Dec !899
Anne 0 Mar 1900
Hannah 1 Jun 1900
Mary 1 Jun 1900
Mary Lizzie 0 Dec 1900
Thomas seems one obvious possibility.There is also a Mary Elizabeth born in the same quarter as him(Jun 1898).Twins spring to mind but I can't see a death for her(see below).Just to complicate matters there is both a birth and death for a Mary Lizzie in Dec 1900.I can find a Mary Lizzie given born 1898 iin the 1901 census,born Talyllyn,belonging to another couple,so I suspect the "twin theory" is not an option.Unfortunately I can't find any baptismal data that would help in ascribing parents to any of the above.
Regards
Roger`
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Roger, I know you place some value on naming conventions so I wonder if that gives us any clues.
Mary Elizabeth had brothers Evan Lloyd? Lloyd and David Lloyd
and her Hughes children living in 1911 were Evan Lloyd Hughes and David Griffiths Hughes.
So given she already had a "William" with my William Lloyd Williams (her father's name and also that of another brother) that takes care of males on her side of the family although I don't know where the Griffiths comes in!
Although it's intriguing there was a Griffith Hughes died 1898 - given her living son's second name
Logically, If there was/were earlier boy(s) shouldn't they have been named after her husband or his family which makes Thomas likely. Unfortunately I'm not sure of his parents so can't take this reasoning further at the moment.
If there were earlier girls who died - Mary 1900 or Elizabeth 1899 or Grace would be possibilities.
If I can narrow it further it might be worth going for a birth cert or two.
I talked to my cousin who said there was no hint in family stories of Elizabeth already having two children before William died. I'm favouring the 2 Hughes deaths theory.
He did volunteer one anecdote of possible interest. Apparently when William and Mary Elizabeth married "they went and lived in a farmhouse owned by the Lloyd family high on the hillside above Corris - called Braichgoch Farm". I can see there is a Braichgoch Inn in the 1891 close to Brynllwyd with some Griffiths in it but not a farm and it's not clear there is any connection.
Ian
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There is a Braichgoch Farm,occupied by Evan Evans(born circa1824) and his wife Hannah and various family members in the 1891 and 1901 census.In those listings it is next to The National School House.I'll see if I can find a map.
Regards
Roger
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It can be seen on this map directly below "Corris" and "Holy Trinity Church".
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102185131
Regards
Roger
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Thanks - great map.
family memory must have slipped a bit though - it's hardly "high on the hill" - or perhaps he got the place name wrong.
By the way I forgot to mention my cousins said WLW was a member of the Bethania Presbyterian Church in Corris. (Which explains the civil ceremonies and probably those of his mother's family too) and he and his wife Rachel are buried in the public cemetery in Corris. He was also on the local councils and was a coordinator arranging placements for refugees around the villages during WW2.
Thanks to you and Gadget there is a good coherent picture of the earlier family emerging.
Ian
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That information has thrown up another candidate for William.In the 1881 census at Brynderwen,Talyllyn is the family of William R Williams and another Margaret(this one born circa 1836 Tryddyn,Flntshire)Amongst the family is a Walter M Williams and a William E Williams(given born 1875)
In 1891 the family is at Braichgoch Terrace and there is a Walter M at Braichgoch Villa in 1901(though there are 4 Walter M's of approx the same age in Talyllyn!)..and there's a Mabel in the family!
Regards
Roger
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I think I have traced the William E Williams of my last post,and he is not your man.As far as I can tell,he was William Edward Williams,and I think he gets married in Wandsworth in 1908.
Perhaps best wait for the marriage certificate you've ordered!
Regards
Roger
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Gadget, thanks I tried BMD registers - no luck.
As Roger suggests, I'm going to wait for the certificate hoping that will keep things simple.
I need some simplicity because I've just received a dose of major complexity in my other family search for birth of Henry Jones in Carmarthenshire!
Ian
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Gadget, thanks I tried BMD registers - no luck.
You need a bit of luck with the non-conformist registers. Many have just not survived. I did find a few of mine there so I thought it was worth you looking.
Gadget
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Hello
Dolgellau hold some inquest records - you might be lucky - I was :)
In the record I found for my relative's accident at Blaenau Ffestiniog apart from describing what happened and what witnesses, etc it also detailed the man's family.
Dolgellau hold the police log books - These are like day books and an accident at the quarry will probably be mentioned in this as well.
It would be worth giving them a ring and if they do have some of the information you need I ma sure someone here would gladly get copies for you when they are next there......
The staff at Dolgellau had searched for the record for me and had it out ready when I got there and they were the ones who directed me to the police books and there was a marker on the right page - they were very helpful.
Nesta
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Thanks Nesta - am giving that a try
regards Ian
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good luck
N
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Getting the marriage cert has cracked open the Williams family history!
Surprisingly, they were older when they married than we thought and that info and their addresses and their father’s names now make it easy to identify the families in census records
The marriage cert of 7/5/1894 from the Register Office Dolgelly shows a civil marriage between:
William Williams 26, Slate Quarrier of Aberlleferri farm Talyllyn with father Robert Williams also a Slate Quarrier, deceased.
Mary Lloyd 24, spinster of Tanrallt Corris, Talyllyn with father Richard Lloyd, also a Slate Quarrier.
Witnesses Robert Williams (subsequently found must be 2 years older brother) and Jane Ann Jones
WW is in 71 with father Robert and then in 81, and 91 census returns with mother Jane Williams widow, farmer of 10 acres Plas Farm and then at Aberlleferri Farm Talyllyn in the 91 returns. WW gave that farm as his address on marriage. Mother must have been married before (Jane Evans?), because WW has Hugh, Evan, Edward, and Humphrey Evans step siblings with him in censuses (still mostly single in ‘91).
Robert Williams must die between ‘71 and ‘81.
Haven’t worked on Mother’s family yet but it clearly isn’t William and Grace Lloyd as previously thought.
It's misleading the newspaper reports have WW as being younger and there is no indication of them having 2 young children when he died, although they were both old enough for one of them to have had children before their marriage.
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Hi Roger and Gadget.
As earlier post shows and as you suggested, it was worth getting the marriage cert. I got the lead to the families from that. No widow with 2 children though!
Thanks for your help on this subject
Ian
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Hi Ian
Interesting and why getting certs maybe the best way!
Just another check though - did you get a marriage cert for Mary and Thomas Hughes - just to make sure of Mary's father?
Gadget
Added - Mary's age at marraige doesn't seem to tie in with her age on censuses. Often ages are 'adjusted' but worth checking/noting.
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The North Wales BMD shows the marriage to Thomas Hughes under both Mary's surnames:
1896 Thomas Hughes to Mary E Lloyd and Mary E Williams,
Local Dolgellau ref is DOL/15/E7
GRO Reg is as Mary Elizabeth Williams - Dolgelly 1896 - Q.2/11b/673
Gadget
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I've just checked the 1891 census again for a Mary Lloyd, b 1870 +/- 5 years - the only one that seems to fit in the Corris area is a Mary E Lloyd, aged 16, at Brynllwyd Farm, Talylyn. Parents are down as William and Grace ???
Same in the 1881!
I think the Hughes marriage cert needed.
Gadget
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I could get the Hughes marriage but it would logically say father Richard Lloyd - wouldn't it - which would not be much help.
In 1891 there is a Mary Lloyd born Corris age 22 servant at the Shop Llandderfel 4640/85/5.
Bit of a long shot in a different village
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The marriage certificate you have is for a couple who can be found at Aberllefari(?) Farm in 1901 ref.RG13 5253 19 2,and therefore not "your" William.
Regards
Roger
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I could get the Hughes marriage but it would logically say father Richard Lloyd - wouldn't it - which would not be much help.
The Hughes marriage cert will probably give you Mary's father's name - and not necessarily a Richard.
Add - it would also give you another check on Mary's age.
Gadget
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Oops - embarrassing - got a bit carried away there!
Thanks Roger.
Can't immediately see an alternative marriage reference for them
Yes Gadget, I will get the Hughes certificate - should be sure of that marriage since I know the family that followed is in the censuses. Hopefully her actual father's name will be there.
Ian
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I now have Hughes/Williams marriage certificate Dolgelly AMJ 1896 11b 673. Date 25/4/1896
Mary Elizabeth Williams Widow age 21 of Brynllwyd, Corris, Talyllin. Father William Lloyd (Dec'd), farmer.
Thomas Hughes Widower, age 27 of Greenfield Terrace Corris, slate quarrier. father Griffith Hughes (dec'd) farmer.
Witnesses Henry R Jones and John Rogers.
So this confirms previous input from Gadget and Roger - Mary E's father was William Lloyd which fits with William and Grace Lloyd as her parents.
What is a surprise is that Thomas Hughes was a widower on marriage. I wonder if that explains the other 2 children who died (of the 5 born by 1911) - perhaps they were his from a previous marriage. I know the census asks for "children of this marriage" but it already looks as if Mary included William Lloyd Williams to make 3 living.
The 1911 census raises more questions than it answers because Mary E states she is Married not Widowed but there is no Thomas present and I can't find a record for him. She has also moved away from Corris to Abergarfon Isof, Pantperthog which is in Machynlleth district. However, her ages through the census returns and the 21 on marriage are consistent with a birth in Dologelly OND 1874 11b 391
William Lloyd farmed a large farm at one time. In 1871 the Brynwllyd farm was recorded as 337 acres and he was employing a farm labourer
Grace was a Davies from Llanwin, Montgomeryshire- in 1901 she was by then a widow with her brother Joseph and sister Margaret living with her in Glanynant Corris. There were 3 families in Glanynant including Thomas and Mary E Hughes.
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If you look for later data on the Mabel Lloyd(with Grace in the 1901 census),you may find her with her father and Thomas Hughes.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks Roger.
Looks as if Thomas Hughes (still married) and David Lloyd (previously given as a farmer) may have had to move to find work in the mines.
There is something I need to know about handling data from the 1911 census. It is obviously sensitive - can someone please explain the rules to me.
Ian
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Because of copyright issues,part of Rootschat Terms and Conditions prohibits requesting or providing 1911 census look-ups in the form of images or transcriptions.
Regards
Roger
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There is a record of a child,Mary I(ris) Hughes,mother's maiden name Lloyd,who was born and died in 1912.Pennal District.Though Thomas is working away in 1911 it could be their child and might fit with the fertility history(?).
Regards
Roger
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That looks highly likely given Mary Elizabeth's location in Pennal district for the 1911 census.
Given Thomas was a boarder with her brother it wouldn't be surprising that they were still a couple.
However, I thought 1911 census was taken in spring 1911 so fertility info from that predates this birth and death - so this would be a third child that died wouldn't it?
I think the other two must be amongst that list you compiled some time ago.
regards Ian
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Hi Gadget
I am following up on the Mary Lloyd/William Williams marriage DOL/12/E117 you identified in the North wales BMD - it seems to be the only way I can find his parents. I am requesting the certificate from the Gwynedd Registry.
Can I be sure this is not the same marriage as the 1894 Dolgelly S 11b 630 which I erroneously thought was my William Williams and Mary Lloyd? I suppose I'm asking if there is a Gwynedd local reference for the 1894 11B 630 so I can check this is a different marriage
regards Ian
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I think the two references are for the same marriage and that one for Mary Elizabeth Lloyd and William Williams is not to be found(?)
Just to clear up a previous point I have quoted at different times two possible candidates for William with very similar references viz.
RG12 4641/55/1 -this is the Aberllefeny(sic) Farm one,which has been dismissed as found again in
1901 and the subject of the certificate you have,
RG12 4641/85/1- this is the son of Margaret Williams at Beaumaris Terrace(widowed in 1881/1891)
He seems to be the best remaining candidate(?)
Regards
Roger
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Perhaps it would be useful to get William William's death certificate.The one newspaper snippet had words to the effect..."he was conveyed home but died".The address and/or informant may then give the vital clue.No guarantees though....
I think the appropriate references are:-
1894 DOLD2/12/E395 (NorthWalesBMD)
1894 Dolgelly 11b 221
Please double check if you decide to proceed.
Regards
Roger
Added - Forget the above - of course having just married the address will be Brynllwyd Farm as per Gadget's snippet,and not his bachelor address.
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Yes, I've looked at the Margaret, Beaumaris Terrace family from 1861 to 1911 with John the husband in case there might have been clues. Perhaps not surprisingly none found. So can't rule that family in or out.
As you say the death cert would almost certainly give B. Farm address and Mary Elizabeth's name but I think I should get it anyway - there seems to be no other possibility of finding his family - unless - just a thought - if there was a funeral/burial service where might that have been reported? People attending the funeral would surely have included his mother and siblings.
I'm going to check with cousins to see if there is a family burial place - I know his son is buried in Corris somewhere, so it is worth checking that.
This seems to be a case of diminishing possibilities to trace the family!
Thanks for your help
Ian
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I have death cert but as discussed gives Brynllwyd Farm so no help there.
However, my Welsh cousin may have discovered the marriage of MEM to WW in Aberystwyth district:
ref JAS 1893 11b 93 Aberystwyth
WW age 21 quarryman, father John Williams a Shopkeeper, deceased.
MEL age 21 father William, farmer deceased.
Married 8 Aug 1893 both living Talybont
This fits with John Williams family in census 1861, 1871 (John a draper grocer) who died in 1880 leaving wife Margaret a widow in 1891 and 1901 1911 censuses.
Looks good but hesitate to say its certain given false starts in the past!
Ian
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Sorry, that last census bit lacks context
I was referring to John Williams in 1871 at Shop Cwrt, parish Talyllyn, Dolgelly,
Ref RG10/5689
Looks a good fit but there may be other possibilities since the residence given for both of them was Talybont which is some way away from Cwrt, Tallylyn, Dolgelly. It would be good to find some confirmation.
Ian