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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Eilleen on Sunday 31 July 16 17:22 BST (UK)

Title: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Sunday 31 July 16 17:22 BST (UK)
Sunday's seem to all ways get Me and my "cousin " thinking about are big family mystery  :)

My Grandfather and her Grandmother married illegally, both were still married to other people  ::)

after a long search I found my Grandmother's whereabouts, what she did and were she went after

my Grandfather started an affair, 

but after many years searching , We have never been able to find any trail of her Grandfather, this

has let us to believe the naughty couple may have murdered him  ??? ??? 

just wondered if anyone else has had this problem  :)

Eilleen. 
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: larkspur on Sunday 31 July 16 17:38 BST (UK)
I also have not found any trace of my great great grandfather after the 1871 census. There are several deaths for a man of the same name but despite tree's on Ancestry insisting he died in 1872 in Harby- this is not him. I think we just have to sit back and think he vanished into the ether. Another gt gt grandfather of mine married for the second time to my gt gt grandmother. I have never found a death or burial for his first wife, but as she was a drunken prostitute kicked out of several towns, I would think she died in a ditch somewhere on her travels  :o, which I think incidentley would have been the fate of the very stroppy Ann Widdecomb in the Tv series...... 8)

I have discovered lots of snippets of information from the old newspapers online, have you checked them out?
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Sunday 31 July 16 18:10 BST (UK)
larkspur .

We have trawled through so many things, He just seemed to have vanished at the time of the affair

in 1931  ::)  but as daft as it seems murder is a strong possibility   :o

a later mishap  ??? ??? could have been put down to strange circumstances regarding another

member of same family   :-X

I suppose some folks do get away with murder  ???

short of actually digging up the allotment or backyard they had  my hands are tied  :)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: BumbleB on Sunday 31 July 16 18:22 BST (UK)
I'm assuming you have checked the 1939 register for him  :-\  That you have his date of birth, checked migration records etc. etc.

Murder is a bit far-fetched, but not an impossible solution  :o

Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 31 July 16 18:41 BST (UK)
I have a similar situation where a young wife 'vanishes' and the next I know her husband is marrying again as a bachelor.  It does not help that said husband had an accident with a gun and shot his mother in the arm   ;D   
I often wonder if he did away with first wife, I ought to start looking for her again.  ::)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Sunday 31 July 16 20:30 BST (UK)
Checked , double checked  :P :P

1939 register , electoral registers ( till I needed to start wearing glasses  ::) travel , newspapers , the

list is endless  :)  then We go ago , different spellings , different names  ???

had it been a few years ago , We would have trawled round all the local pubs quizzing everyone  :-X

He was bobbed off , He got in the way , or it may have been an accident that needed covering up .

I knew Grandad and his witch ( as she was fondly known as in the family ) 8)  she did it  ;D
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: carol8353 on Monday 01 August 16 09:13 BST (UK)
If he started an affair ,he would likely have been trying to stay 'unfound',so it's very likely that he changed his name entirely.Possibly moved abroad even?

If he died after 1969,you could try and search for someone with the same birth date.
And try tying them all up to a birth of the same name,easier with a man of course.

Carol
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: larkspur on Monday 01 August 16 13:55 BST (UK)
Eilleen, do you want to post his name up  ??? a few sets of fresh eyes on the search maybe  ;)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Monday 01 August 16 16:23 BST (UK)
Her you go Larkspur  :)

James Dickie

birth 19th July 1903 We think?

Mother Marguerite Cairns.

 Father William Dickie,  born12th Aug 1878 Lanark, Lanarkshire, Scotland.
this chap , James Father came to live in Lincoln round about 1916.
have his history .

James Dickie married Rose Barton in Lincoln 10th Oct 1925, He worked as a wood machinist.

1927 address 10, Reservoir street Lincoln.

1928 daughter born . 4 , Vickers Court, Lincoln.

1931 son born. Clarence Maitland Dickie ,71, Chaplin street. Lincoln.

He disappeared after 1931 , no define  sightings after that  ::)

He did not start an affair, and it seems that his children never saw him again . ::)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: carol8353 on Monday 01 August 16 16:39 BST (UK)
So James Dickie was born in Scotland in 1903?

Clarence M was born with the surname Lanes in 1931 in Lincoln,not Dickie.

Although she didn't marry Charles Lanes till 1942 they appear as a family in 1939.

Carol
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: carol8353 on Monday 01 August 16 16:51 BST (UK)
OOps deleted,I'm going mad!
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Monday 01 August 16 17:31 BST (UK)
 ;D
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: BumbleB on Monday 01 August 16 17:59 BST (UK)
I'm wondering why I cannot see a previous marriage for Charles W Lanes. The only marriage I can see, in England and Wales, is the 1942 marriage for Charles and Rose.

Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: larkspur on Monday 01 August 16 18:24 BST (UK)
Marriages Mar 1927   
LANES    Charlie    WAKEFIELD    Stafford    6b   12    
Wakefield    Frances E    Lanes    Stafford    6b   12

Freebmd for the children probably alive and well.   

 
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Monday 01 August 16 18:43 BST (UK)
when Granddad Charles Lanes and Rose Dickie hooked up  ::)

Charles 1st wife Frances Eliza went  home to Stafford from Lincoln where she had been living with her in-laws , she was having Charles 3 rd child , still going strong in his 80s ,
my Mum and Aunt ( both deceased ) were not allowed to go home to Stafford with her  :'(
Charles and Rose did not take my Mum and her sister in to their home.

Oh what happened to you Mr James Dickie  :) :)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: loobylooayr on Monday 01 August 16 19:01 BST (UK)
Very interesting idea Eilleen  :o
You mention the James came to Lincoln circa 1916 when he must have been around 13. Did he come with his parents? Were there any siblings? You are talking about him disappearing when he was around 27/28 years old. Surely if he had family , someone would have missed him and asked questions. Same with employers.

Looby :)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Monday 01 August 16 19:20 BST (UK)
Hi Looby  :)

No James arrival in Lincoln is not know , He was in Lincoln when He married in 1925,

it was his Father William Dickie who came to Lincoln in 1916.Employment

The Father William Dickie ,14th March 1916 Lincoln ,England
working at Meesr Ruston Proctor ,sheaf iron works, Lincoln.

his wife died in 1922,  so it would appear He never went home,

his war papers give address's in Lincoln , living with a female ,

The James Dickie I need to pin down would have been early 20's when He arrived in Lincoln,

maybe after his Mother had died He came to Lincoln to see/ be with his Father  ???

Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Monday 01 August 16 19:39 BST (UK)
Just to paint the picture a wee bit more  :)

without getting any relatives wanting to shoot Me down in flames  :)

The "Witch "  ;) would and could have told employers of her husband James Dickie  anything ,

My Mum and her sister were told that their Mother Frances Eliza was called Fanny and that she lived in London and got blown up in the blitz , my Mum believed that till her dying day,
the truth was Eliza was in Stafford with my Mum's Brother,( who she knew nothing about )
Eliza tried to see her two girls in Lincoln but was forbidden .

there is lots more that cannot be mention here  ::) ::) :)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: larkspur on Monday 01 August 16 19:52 BST (UK)
On Williams attestation papers he was living in Green Street Glasgow He joined in Lincoln in 1919. Strange thing to join up at age 40 and 334 days, when the first world war was over?? Leaving his wife in Glasgow. Or was he demobbed and rejoined, ok found it, the records are not in time order. He signed up 13-1-1915 in the Artillery Rgt in Glasgow.He was attached for duty with a sheet iron works in Lincoln and then employed in munitions. When he was discharged- 15-4-1920 he gave his address as 8, Steep hill, Lincoln.

Aah- he had stoppages on his pay to support a child 26-8-1919. The money went to Mrs Mary Elizabeth Smalley of 8, Steep Hill Lincoln. The child was born 10-10-1918 and the payment was to be made from then until the child reached 16 or died.
29-11-1918 he sends a letter giving his present address Steep hill and home address 168 Graeme Street Glasgow.
Oh I WISH my lot had such wonderful military records  :-\
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Monday 01 August 16 20:08 BST (UK)
Larkspur  :)

I should have got in touch before  :) ;)

took Me ages to find all that information,  but please do not stop  8)

I am waiting for you with your hound dog detective skills to find James Dickie after 1928 ish

and prove Me wrong ..... that He is buried under the patio  :-X :-X
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: loobylooayr on Monday 01 August 16 20:22 BST (UK)
Hi Eilleen,

I take it you have ruled out the James Dickie with year of birth circa 1903 who makes several sea voyages - 1927, 1930.1932 between Glasgow, USA and Chile ?
Where exactly was James born? And do you know where and when did his parents died?
Sorry for the questions but I just wonder if they were already deceased by the time of James's vanishing act.

Looby


Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Monday 01 August 16 20:43 BST (UK)
Ask away  :)

I am the one with the mystery  ::)

Father William Dickie died in Lincoln in 1944 aged 66.

his Mother died in 1922 , aged 38, Dennistoun, Glasgow .

1927 seems rather early for him to be roaming abroad .

I have him on the electorial registers in 1927 and 1928 and in the middle of those his first child a

daughter was born  ???

James Dickie  birth , 19th July 1903, came from his Father William Dickie's recruitment papers in 1915.
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: loobylooayr on Monday 01 August 16 21:07 BST (UK)
Yes perhaps that James is a different James  :-\ 

If his father was still alive in Lincoln till 1944 , wouldn't he wonder about his disappearing son?
I'm Scottish Eilleen , so know more about Scottish records than English ones, but would there be an informant on William's death cert ? Often in families the oldest son would register a parents death.


I have an old friend with a vanished great-grandfather of approx. same era - mid 1920s . He disappeared from Glasgow. Great-grandma left with 3 kids- no money- no contact , struggled to raise family alone, working 2 cleaning jobs and taking in washing to support them. Family never knew what had happened to missing man. My friend took up Family History a few years and traced the errant G-grandfather to USA. He'd kept his name, changed his marital status to single and sailed to NY. He married (bigamously ) and had a second family.

There is a chance your man could have done something similar, especially if his marriage was rocky.

Looby :)

Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Monday 01 August 16 21:32 BST (UK)
Looby  :)

I agree , He could have just cleared off,

also I am aware that the 2nd world war may have claimed him  ::)

I have just been researching a gentleman on my husbands line,

and He went over to Australia , started a new family , and only came back over 30 years later

when He was dying, in fact He died on board ship before He arrived  ::) ::)

"I love dealing with the dead " :o  well that's what everyone who know's Me say's  :) :)

work tomorrow so bed time for Me , thank you so much  :-*
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Geoff-E on Monday 01 August 16 21:57 BST (UK)
If his father was still alive in Lincoln till 1944 ,

Abode at time of death was still Steep Hill. A Mary Elizabeth SMALLEY of Baggholme Rd died in 1958 aged 76.
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: carol8353 on Monday 01 August 16 22:46 BST (UK)
Hi Eilleen,

I take it you have ruled out the James Dickie with year of birth circa 1903 who makes several sea voyages - 1927, 1930.1932 between Glasgow, USA and Chile ?
Where exactly was James born? And do you know where and when did his parents died?
Sorry for the questions but I just wonder if they were already deceased by the time of James's vanishing act.

Looby

I don't believe that this is the correct chap,he goes to the USA and Peru many times in the mid 1920's and 30's,he is an engineer,with a Glasgow address.

I wonder if the one above is the one who married in California,and on his death gives a birth date as 19th August 1904?

Carol
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Meelystar on Monday 01 August 16 22:52 BST (UK)
Have you looked at the James dickie who dies in Glasgow, 1955? Just wondered with the family connection if he went back there?
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: carol8353 on Monday 01 August 16 23:02 BST (UK)
Hi Eilleen,

I take it you have ruled out the James Dickie with year of birth circa 1903 who makes several sea voyages - 1927, 1930.1932 between Glasgow, USA and Chile ?
Where exactly was James born? And do you know where and when did his parents died?
Sorry for the questions but I just wonder if they were already deceased by the time of James's vanishing act.

Looby

According to dad William's WW1 record his address was Bridgeton Glasgow,and using the free serach a James Dickie was born there in 1903- I don't have any credits to check to see if it is the right chap. Parents married on 17th April 1903.

Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: larkspur on Tuesday 02 August 16 15:37 BST (UK)
http://www.GenesReunited.co.nz/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1337259
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: carol8353 on Tuesday 02 August 16 15:40 BST (UK)
http://www.GenesReunited.co.nz/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1337259

The person who posted this is called Eileen,probably the same person as the OP here  ;D
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: larkspur on Tuesday 02 August 16 15:55 BST (UK)
mm my thoughts too, I just wanted the link so others searching could see what had already been discovered.
I did ask Eileen to put the name of her man if she wished and we could have a look, so not her fault at all, I did not ask if she had already posted a query on any other boards.  8)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: anne_p on Tuesday 02 August 16 16:51 BST (UK)
I wonder who signed the 1922 death cert for Margaret Dickie MS Cairns.

Son James was the eldest, born 1903 which made him around 19/20 yrs old at time of mother's death.
However, James had 4 yonger siblings born between 1905 and 1915.
( plus one half sibling b 1918 in Lincoln)

His youngest  full brother named John would be just 7 yrs old at time of their mother's death.

Locating these 4 siblings after 1922 ( all from father's military records) may lead to James

Margaret b 6 Apr 1905 Glasgow
Mary Jane b 23 Feb 1909 Rutherglen
William b 2 Jun 1912 Glasgow
John b 15 Dec 1915 Glasgow


Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: carol8353 on Tuesday 02 August 16 21:17 BST (UK)
Decided to download his birth cert so we've got the exact DOB,which I can't actually read!
I see that his full name was James Cairns Dickie.
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: anne_p on Tuesday 02 August 16 22:23 BST (UK)
The Birth cert does state birth 19 Jul 1903.
 Registered by his father on Aug 3rd 1903?
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Wednesday 03 August 16 08:01 BST (UK)
Carol just seen what you found , birth cert .... the name ,,, so excited , thank you  :-*

Hello everyone who are giving your time to help , :)

I have not been answering , because of work  ::) ::)

Got Grandson today , but will back as soon as possible,

have not digested everything yet, but my heart is racing just reading titbit  :) :)

back soon Eilleen.
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: loobylooayr on Wednesday 03 August 16 08:24 BST (UK)
Hi Eileen.

With the new information provided by carol that James had the middle name Cairns  -

There is a marriage of a James C Dickie and a Nancy A Dobson/Mullen-Dobson/Skelton in December of 1952 at Bulmer, North Yorkshire.
This appears to be a second or third marriage for Nancy who I believe was married previously to an Alfred Skelton.  There is a death for a Nancy Anne E Dickie in York in 1977 giving a date of birth in Dec 1910 - so about 7 years younger than your James Dickie.

These people could be totally unconnected to your James Dickie, but perhaps worth looking at if only to  eliminate from your search.

Looby  :)

Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: carol8353 on Wednesday 03 August 16 08:35 BST (UK)
I wonder who signed the 1922 death cert for Margaret Dickie MS Cairns.



Margaret died on 19th May 1922 at 253 Duke Street Glasgow,her mum Mary Jane Cairns of 66 Franklin Street was the informant.
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: loobylooayr on Wednesday 03 August 16 08:44 BST (UK)
Poor Margaret  :(  - Do you know the cause of death Carol?  She did not last long after her husband left.

Looby :)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: carol8353 on Wednesday 03 August 16 08:46 BST (UK)
Poor Margaret  :(  - Do you know the cause of death Carol?  She did not last long after her husband left.

Looby :)

Subacute Nephritis and Cardiac Valvular Disease.

Sounds like her mum was left to bring up the children then?
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: loobylooayr on Wednesday 03 August 16 08:58 BST (UK)
I had to Google Subacute Nephritis , as I'd never heard of that before. Seems to be  inflammation of the kidneys.
Yes looks like her mother may have been left with the children. Perhaps they were split between other relatives :-\....this could have been when James moved south to be with his father - maybe even to find his father and inform him of Margaret's death  :-\ . Who knows?? :)

Looby
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Wednesday 03 August 16 17:57 BST (UK)
You lot are amazing  :)

Grandson has gone home, so apart from cooking evening meal ,

I can digest what you all have been helping Me with . :)

If it all falls in to place , I may have to retract my "murder most foul " theory  ::)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Wednesday 03 August 16 18:10 BST (UK)
Anne-p

Can I ask you to transcribe the birth cert  :)

I cannot read it  ;D
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: iolaus on Thursday 04 August 16 16:58 BST (UK)
My husbands grandfather 'vanished' in the 50s, apparently said he was going to get a packet of fags and never came back, no trace of him - maybe he was killed but  everyone thinks he just left and decided to start afresh
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Friday 05 August 16 09:23 BST (UK)
carol8353  :)

Hello , it was you who I meant to ask  :)

could you tell Me what address the birth cert says  :)

Eilleen
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: carol8353 on Friday 05 August 16 09:33 BST (UK)
carol8353  :)

Hello , it was you who I meant to ask  :)

could you tell Me what address the birth cert says  :)

Eilleen

As I said in reply 33 ,I can't actually read it  ;D

All I can make out is something street Glasgow.

Perhaps if you paid for the April 1903 marriage cert it may give you a clue?

Carol
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: BumbleB on Friday 05 August 16 10:29 BST (UK)
I believe that the date of birth is July Nineteenth 1903.

Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Friday 05 August 16 12:07 BST (UK)
Cousin xx is on to it ,

she has just emailed Me with the following.

I had a look at the Rootschat info and I see someone was asking who was the informant for William Dickie's death. I sent for the death certificate when I discovered him having died in Lincoln, but the informant wasn't James. The informant was someone called E V M Sheldon,

Sheldon or Skelton  ??? ??? ??? ???  just asking her . :)

Yes it defiantly says     , E V M Sheldon. Present at death. 15 Steep Hill, Lincoln.  ::) thats a shame

and there is more ,

5 years before William Dickie's death in the  1939 register Martha .V.E Sheldon is living with her

husband and children at

13, Steep Hill, Lincoln ,  so she was his next door neighbor   ???
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: carol8353 on Friday 05 August 16 15:43 BST (UK)
I believe that the date of birth is July Nineteenth 1903.

Dad William's army service record gives James's DOB as 19th July 1903,just 3 months after hs parents married.  ;)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Friday 05 August 16 16:25 BST (UK)
This is so much more than I could have hoped for  :)

The brick-walls or patio's are tumbling down  ;D
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Friday 05 August 16 16:28 BST (UK)
Looby , cousin is now ordering this what you found  :)

There is a marriage of a James C Dickie and a Nancy A Dobson/Mullen-Dobson/Skelton in December of 1952 at Bulmer, North Yorkshire.

will keep you informed  ;D
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: loobylooayr on Friday 05 August 16 17:29 BST (UK)
Looby , cousin is now ordering this what you found  :)

There is a marriage of a James C Dickie and a Nancy A Dobson/Mullen-Dobson/Skelton in December  :)of 1952 at Bulmer, North Yorkshire.

will keep you informed  ;D

I hope this is your guy and not someone with the same name, Eilleen  :-[ .......which of course it could be  :-X .
But with the bride being in her 40s you would assume the groom would be mature too .
Fingers crossed.

Looby :)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: carol8353 on Friday 05 August 16 17:40 BST (UK)
This might be her death? Not sure why York has moved to Greater Manchester though?

Name:    Nancy Anne E Dickie
Birth Date:    12 Dec 1910
Date of Registration:    Sep 1977
Age at Death:    66
Registration district:    York
Inferred County:    Greater Manchester
Volume:    2
Page:    2373
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: loobylooayr on Friday 05 August 16 18:08 BST (UK)
This might be her death? Not sure why York has moved to Greater Manchester though?

Name:    Nancy Anne E Dickie
Birth Date:    12 Dec 1910
Date of Registration:    Sep 1977
Age at Death:    66
Registration district:    York
Inferred County:    Greater Manchester
Volume:    2
Page:    2373

Yes, that was the death I saw on Freebmd. Couldn't find one for James though  ???
The death is York  - North Yorkshire on that site.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/districts.pl?r=255290618:0685&d=bmd_1470077884

Looby :)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Friday 05 August 16 19:32 BST (UK)
Thank you Looby  :)

Have had a quick look for her birth  ???

can only see a Nancy Dobson  sept qrt 1909, Market Drayton , Staffordshire, Shropshire and Cheshire.

trying to find her on the 1911 , not having much look either  ::)

right found that girl,

Nancy Dobson , aged 10, farmers daughter,  4 Redgwardine Market Drayton, Drayton in Hales,

Shropshire, England.
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Friday 05 August 16 19:39 BST (UK)
Nope  ??? ???

That's not her , that lady died in 1991.  ::)
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: carol8353 on Friday 05 August 16 19:40 BST (UK)
I think this might be her first marriage.

Marriages Dec 1932 

Dobson    Nancy A E    Skelton    Scarbro'    9d   884   
Skelton    Alfred N    Dobson    Scarbro'    9d   884    
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Friday 05 August 16 19:52 BST (UK)

Going back over what you merry lot have discovered.

what is with the MULLEN  bit  ???

There is a marriage of a James C Dickie and a Nancy A Dobson/Mullen-Dobson/Skelton in December of 1952 at Bulmer, North Yorkshire.
Title: Re: Murder in mind
Post by: Eilleen on Friday 05 August 16 19:54 BST (UK)
I hope this is your guy and not someone with the same name, Eilleen  :-[ .......which of course it could be  :-X .
But with the bride being in her 40s you would assume the groom would be mature too .
Fingers crossed.

Looby :)
[/quote]

If not ,she will have lots of cert's for anyone that needs them  ;D

I tried to do what everyone else does the quote thingy, obviously I got it wrong  ::)