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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Derbyshire => England => Derbyshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Arachne on Thursday 04 August 16 05:05 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm trying to get back a bit further back on my paternal grandmother's maternal side. I have a note (sadly lacking in names) left by a now deceased aunt, in which she says:
"My great great great grandparents lived in England and were wealthy landowners.They had a daughter, who was my great great grandmother. Her father was concerned for the poor and belonged to a group of people who helped them".
What might this group have been? A religious movement like the Plymouth Brethren or something similar?
"One of the members of this groups was a wealthy farmer and he was friendly with the landowner.. The farmer had known the daughter of his friend since she was a little girl. When she grew up he fell in love with her and wanted to marry her..But the girl's mother did not approve. Her daughter was sent to a finishing school in Paris in hopes that the romance would die down, but when the girl returned the couple still wanted to marry, so her parents consented.
The farmer's name was Hicking (sic). He and his wife lived in Littleover in Derbyshire. They in turn had a daughter called Martha and she was my great grandmother.. The farmer and his wife used to have dances on their lawn sometimes to entertain the people from the village. At one of these dances Martha met a young man from the village, Richard Lee (a boilermaker or something in the engineering line). History repeated itself - this couple fell in love and their parents didn't approve, but did eventually give their consent."
Martha & Richard then married and emigrated to New Zealand.
Any detail about Martha's parents and /or grandparents would be gratefully received. I find this mysterious group of philanthropists intriguing as well, if anyone can help with that.
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Hi Arachne,
It would really help if you posted what you already know by way of names and dates and places, it is best to work back from your grandmother, to her parents names and dates, etc.
Everyone on here is incredibly helpful but a bit more detail may be needed.
Jo :)
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This looks like Richard & Martha's marriage so we have some idea of dates
Marriage December qtr 1866
Hickling Martha
Lee Richard
Derby 7b 771
The marriage certificate would help with their parents names
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1871 Nottingham has this...
Richard Lee, 28, engine fitter, born Codnor Park, Derby
Martha Lee, 27, born Ripley Derby
Henry, 3, born Lincoln, Lincolnshire
Ann E, 2, born Nottingham
George R, 3 months, born Nottingham.
Jo :)
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1861 Ripley Derby
George Hicking, agricultural labourer, born Codner Derby (same place as Richard Lee above)
Mary, 53, b. Derby
Martha, 18, scholar, b. Ripley Derby
Mary A, 16, ditto
Stephen, 14, ditto
Jo :)
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In 1851 George is a farmer in Belper Derby and wife Mary's birthplace is Loscoe Derby, with further children:
Henry b.1836 Ripley
Hannah b.1838 Ripley
Elizabeth b.1840 Ripley
Jo :)
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A George Hicking married a Mary Watson, 4 Jun 1833, Pentrach Derby..... You would need buy one the children's birth certificates to see if this is the right marriage.
Jo :)
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New Zealand Cemetary Records Eas Hamilton
Richard Lee, died 2 June 1931, age 89, also his wife Martha, d. 19 May 1938, age 94.
Martha's obituary.....unfortunately no mention of her parentage...
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19380521.2.182
And Richards....with name of ship....
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19310604.2.106
Jo
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A George Hicking married a Mary Watson, 4 Jun 1833, Pentrach Derby..... You would need buy one the children's birth certificates to see if this is the right marriage.
Jo :)
I think the p.o.marriage is Pentrich Derbyshire
Suz
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Many thanks for these tips - all very helpful. A hindrance for me has been the lack of known names, though i have recently ordered my great-grandmother's birth certificate in the hope of identifying her mother's maiden name. I live in New Zealand and do have a subscription to Ancestry.com.au, but don't appear to be able to access the number of provincial records that a user of Ancestry UK can
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Thanks for the confirmation of the name of the ship Richard & Martha Lee travelled out on. Family notes have it as "Carte Vale", but spotting the correct name "Cartvale" as per Richard's obit. has enabled me to find the family on the passenger list, where Richard is described as a "hammerman". I take this to be some sort of smith or metal worker:
1874 "Cartvale" London to Wellington, NZ , Passenger manifest.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/Cartvale.htm
Richard Lee (31), wife Martha (30), children Henry (6), Annie (5) & George (3)
This indicates that they are definitely the same couple in the 1871 census as per jomcd967
One interesting family story has it that Martha's sister ((again, no name given) travelled out to NZ with Martha & Richerd, but got lost on arrival amid the confusion of unloading passengers and cargo and that Richard & Martha eventually had to give up the hunt for her and move on. How frightening for a single woman to find herself all alone in a strange country! I would have thought this story ridiculous, but for the fact that I have found at least one other case of a family who also "lost" a sister on arrival in NZ! It does perhaps beg the question of whether these surplus sisters may have wanted to get lost :)
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The passenger list has a Mary Ann Hicking, 28 as a single woman. This would match with the census for Martha with her parents in 1861 that I gave earlier.
Buying Martha's birth certificate would confirm her mothers maiden name and help you go back further. I also realised that I didn't put father Georges age on the census records, he is shown as born circa 1785 in Codner and mother Mary circa 1808 in Ripley. The age difference matches with your family story of George being a long time friend of the parents.
With Martha's mothers maiden name I would assume that there should be something relating to the family in newspapers if they were very well off.
Please let us know what the birth certificate says,
Jo :)
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Hi
Correction re census for George Hicking born 1785 Codnor
In both the the 1851 and 1861 census his occupation is Farmer he is living Greenwich , Ripley Derbyshire.
Previously posted as living in Belper 1851, and being a farm labourer in 1861,
Spendlove
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Hi
Correction re census for George Hicking born 1785 Codnor
In both the the 1851 and 1861 census his occupation is Farmer he is living Greenwich , Ripley Derbyshire.
Previously posted as living in Belper 1851, and being a farm labourer in 1861,
Spendlove
He is an Ag Lab in 1861 Greenwich - wife Mary and children Martha 18, Mary A 16 and Stephen 14
RG9/2511 f87 p38
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Is this Georges death :-\
June qtr 1869
George Hicking age 87
Belper reg district 7b 312
Probate - George Hicking - Effects under £20
30 July 1869
The will -George Hicking late of Ripley, Derbyshire -Yeoman - proved by the oath of Henry Hicking of 156 Tottenham Court Road, Middlesex -Drapers assistant -son one of the executors
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Hi rosie99
You are correct he is ag lab in 1861 census .
I have found, what I think is the first mention of Littleover:-
1891 Census Heanor , Mary is living with her married daughter Elizabeth, who's daughter Edith CC Horobin is born 1875 Littleover .
Elizabeth Hicking = William Horobin Dec q 1874 Basford 7b. 249
Spendlove
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Thanks very much for all this- you are amazing! I did note the large age gap between George and his wife Mary, which as you say seems to fit with the family legend of the family friend marrying the woman he had known from when she was a small girl. Assuming that his wife was Mary Watson (and that 1833 marriage does seem likely given the children's birthdates), I have found a Mary Watson bapt. at St Lawrence Anglican Church, Heanor, Derbyshire, on 2 September 1807, which could fit. Her parents are given as Thomas & Hannah Watson. An Anglican baptism, though, probably puts paid to my guess that her parents' group of philanthropic friends might have in fact have been Friends (Quakers) .
Another snippet from the family history says that my grandmother's grandmother, Martha, nearly didn't make it off the ship. She gave birth on board the ""Cartvale" and had such a difficult delivery (the baby was lost) that she was believed to have died as a result. Preparations for a burial at sea were under way when her husband Richard noticed one of her hands give a tiny twitch. She was revived and went on have another five children in New Zealand!
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Hi
Correction re census for George Hicking born 1785 Codnor
In both the the 1851 and 1861 census his occupation is Farmer he is living Greenwich , Ripley Derbyshire.
Previously posted as living in Belper 1851, and being a farm labourer in 1861,
Spendlove
Find my Past shows the 1851 address as Greenwich BELPER where George is recorded as a farmer and 1861 he is shown as an agricultural labourer.
This is what I posted previously.
Jo :)
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In 1841 they are in Ripley with children Henry, Hannah and Elizabeth, plus eldest son George (1833) and George is now a publican.
Jo :)
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Of particular interest....
1851 Heanor Nottinghamshire
Joseph Watson, 57, Wheelwright employing 2 apprentices and one man, b. Shelton, Notts
Millicent, wife, 54, b. Derbyshire
Joseph, son, 30, wheelwright, b. Heanor, Derbyshire
Mary Ann, daughter, 23, governess, b. Heanor Derbyshire
George Hicking, apprentice, 18, b. Ripley Derbyshire.
Jo :)
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Apprenticed to a relative, you'd think?. Richard & Martha (nee Hicking) Lee are recorded at 8 Lammas Tce, Nottingham, in 1871 with their three children Henry, Annie and George. Richard is working as an engine fitter so perhaps they went there because there was a family connection able to get Richard work. I have this brother George in 1871 as a coach builder in Ripley, with a wife and child, which would fit with his training as a wheelwright.
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Arachne that would be the wrong George, you are talking about George "LEE", son of Richard and Martha, and I am talking about George "HICKING", son of George and Mary (possibly Watson) and brother of Martha.
Jo :)
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Hi Jo, sorry,to be confusing. I'm talking about Richard and Martha's son George Reuben Lee, but also about whom I think might be Martha's brother George Hicking, b. abt 1833
I have the latter at Ripley in the Census of Engalnd 1871 Reg district Belper, Sub-reg Ripley.
George Hicking (38) Head of household, Coach Builder, b. Ripley, Derbyshire
Mary Hicking, (35) wife, b. Greenwich, Ripley
George John, son (14), b. Ripley.
However, there do seem to be quite a few George Hickings about so this might just be one possibilty.
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Hi,
1851 census George Hicking b 1785.
Sorry but I am looking at the actual census, not a transcript, on Ancestry and he is living
Ripley Derbyshire. The same place as in 1861.
I apologise for occupation error, but I am sure that if you look at the census image for 1851 you
Will find he is in Ripley
Spendlove
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Hi Arachne
Perhaps you would like to consider the following as parents of George Hicking b1785:-
John Hicking = Elizabeth Fisher 17 April 1770 at St Lauranvce Heanor DerbyshireI'm
They produced the following children all christened at Heanor
Samuel 28.10.1770, John 6.6.1773, Thomas 7.6.1778, William 8.9.1782 Ann 18.12.1791
The christening for George is difficult to read but I am quite confident it is him christened
18.1.1785.
It is important to note that all the christening state of Codnor - where George states he was born.
All the above with images of parish register can be seen of familysearch.org.
The quickest way to find George is to search George He?in
Spendlove
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Thanks very much for this , Spendlove. I had looked at John Hicking & Elizabeth Fisher, but couldn't find a George (b 1785) among their children, so good to have it confirmed that he was a member of that family. This church of St Lawrence in Heanor keeps popping up in both Watson and Hicking records too.
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Hi,
The Parish Church, for people living in Codnor & Loscoe, was St. Lawrence Heanor.
The Church of St. James, Codnor was not built until about 1844 so if you lived in C or L
you had to go to Heanor. Even after 1844 many people from C & L would still go to Heanor.
http://www.codnor.info/st-james.php
Spendlove
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Well, I've now sighted Martha's cert and it seems we are on exactly the right track - her father is given as George Hicking (farmer) and mother as Mary nee Watson, her birth having taken place at Ripley, Derbyshire, England.
Thanks very much all - considering the lack of names to be going on with, I'm impressed at how much we've worked out between us :)
And as a footnote, I have tracked Martha's missing sister. In 1879 she married a former English soldier who became a gold miner on the West Coast of New Zealand's South Island. They lived around Greymouth and had a daughter. Mary Ann's husband Allen Haig had been serving in India (he was a veteran of the Indian Mutiny) when Governor Grey called for reinforcements to deal with an uprising by the native Maori tribes of New Zealand and he stayed on after the 68th (light Durham Infantry) were to be sent home in 1866. By coincidence Allen Haig was deployed to Tauranga, New Zealand, and took part in the Battle of Gate Pa.
http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/war/war-in-tauranga/gate-pa
Later my grandmother (Martha's granddaughter) lived there with her own family and my father and his sisters grew up running around the redoubt and trenches of Gate Pa, relics of that former battle. The effectiveness of the Maori trenches as a defense mechanism was noted by the British Army and were probably at least partly responsible for those infamous trenches we associate with the horrors of WWI.
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Sorry to butt in..I have the PR's for Heanor St. Lawrence..I haven't been following this thread..but if I can add anything to the excellent work of Spendlove..just ask.
Derek
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Hi Derbyderek - Just curious because I haven't seen her place of baptism mentioned, but wonder if there is a record of Martha Hicking being baptised at St Lawrence? Date of baptism is believed to have been 27 March 1842, birth at Ripley, Derbyshire. Parents were George Hicking (farmer) and Mary (nee Watson).
I notice that Thomas and Stephen Watson (presumably working in partnership) are mentioned as being freeholders of Codnor & Loscoe in the parish of Heanor in 1821 (History & Gazetteer of the County of Derby, Vol 2, Part 1) and wonder if they are connected to Martha's mother Mary (nee Watson), whose parents I believe to have been Thomas & Hannah (nee Baker) Watson. Mary was born at Loscoe and baptised at St Lawrence Heanor on 2 September 1807, and it may be significant that she named her youngest son Stephen.
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Since I last posted here I have pretty much managed to sort out all the members on this side of my family, but have one birth/baptism date which I have been completely unable to confirm, and wondered if one of the helpful researchers here might be able to help.
The person concerned is Mary Ann Hicking, daughter of George Hicking and his wife Mary nee Watson. I know from census records that Mary Ann was born around 1845 at Ripley, Derbyshire - her father had a farm at Greenwich, Ripley, at that time - but can't find a record which provides details of her birth and/or baptism date/s.
Many thanks,
Anne.
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Hi
? Is this a start . . . . .
HICKLING, MARY (mmn WATSON)
GRO Reference: 1842 S Quarter in BASFORD UNION NOTTINGHAM DERBY Volume 15 Page 396
and . . . . .
HICKLING, JANE (mmn WATSON)
GRO Reference: 1844 D Quarter in BASFORD Volume 15 Page 403
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Thanks for this, Ray. I appreciate your response, but I feel that the birth date for this Mary is a bit too early. Going by the census records my Mary Ann Hicking's birth date is extrapolated variously as being abt 1845 or abt 1846. In 1874 when listed as a passenger on the immigrant ship 'Cartvale", her age is given as 28yrs which could possibly make it closer to 1846. Birth place in census records for 1851, 1861 & 1871 is recorded invariably as Ripley, Derbyshire, and as her father had a farm at Greenwich, Ripley, that does seems likely.
Cheers,
Anne.
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Hi
? Is this a start . . . . .
HICKLING, MARY (mmn WATSON)
GRO Reference: 1842 S Quarter in BASFORD UNION NOTTINGHAM DERBY Volume 15 Page 396
and . . . . .
HICKLING, JANE (mmn WATSON)
GRO Reference: 1844 D Quarter in BASFORD Volume 15 Page 403
If Mary Ann was b. Ripley her birth would be registered in Belper district - if it was registered??
Suz