RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Monaghan => Topic started by: Paulmag33 on Sunday 07 August 16 06:08 BST (UK)
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Hi I'm new to this site and would ask if anyone would have any information on my great grandfather / grandmother Joseph Cooper and Mary Anne Cooper (I believe her maiden name is Johnstone)
I have sent off for a marriage certificate and death certificate of Joseph 1916 the same year my grandfather Michael b 4/04/1916 was born who was fostered. The story my mother was told was they were shot by the black and tans but they didn't form until 1920. I have found it nothing to confirm this and am eager to know what happened to them.
I have found 1n the 1911 census a Joseph Cooper but am not sure if this is him.
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To save others from having to Search 1911 Census for him, this looks like them..
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Monaghan/Clones_Urban/Annalore/804147/
Roman Catholic.
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The marriage certificate will at least give a father's names to work from and hopefully he was married from his parents home for a further address
Possibility on 1901 census for Joseph COOPER - LINK (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Monaghan/Clones_Rural/Legnakelly/1630983/) age is out slightly
In 1911 William and Mary Anne COOPER are listed and have aged far more than 10 years! LINK (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Monaghan/Clones_Rural/Legnakelly/804012/)
LINK (http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/eed4b66767781) to Civil Record Reference of Marriage on July 01 1906
www.irishgenealogy.ie has the birth of Elizabeth and James but I cannot see Joseph who is listed in the 1911 census [edited below birth in Clones a possibiliy] or Michael who you referred to. There are other COOPER births with a mother named JOHNSTON which implies another couple in the area with the same surnames
In my family the story was told that my granddad's brother was shot by the Black and Tans however on the 1911 census his wife is already described as a widow! I still cannot find a death to match him so perhaps the story of being taken away and shot is true and just embellished over the years.
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In case the correct family
William COWPER aged 22 of Legnakelly; father Joseph
married on Oct 20 1871 in Roslea RC Church of Enniskillen, Co. Fermanagh
Marianne GUNN aged 22 of Ranmulla; father James
LINK to church record (http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632893#page/21/mode/1up)
Elizabeth COOPER bap Nov 26 1873 Roslea RC LINK (http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632892#page/95/mode/1up)
Mary COOPER bap Jul 13 1875 Clones RC
William COOPER bap Jul 21 1878 Clones RC
Susan COOPER bap Feb 18 1880 Clones RC LINK (http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632823#page/101/mode/1up) others also here if you search
Joseph COOPER bc1882 Church registers stop at 1881 but there is a birth record in CLONES LINK (http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/ddd97b3449830)
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Thank you so much for the reply and sorry it would have made it easier for everyone if I had put a link for the 1911 census.
This is the same Cooper 1911 census that I referred to http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Monaghan/Clones_Urban/Annalore/804147/
The information my relatives have given me is that Michael born 4/04/1916 had a brother named James who they believe went to England there was no talk of Elizebeth but importantly Michael had a twin sister name unknown. I searched and found Ellen Cooper born same year same qtr so have requested a birth certificate for Ellen and have been waiting for that, Joseph's death certificate and Joseph and Mary Annes Marriage certificate for a few weeks now.
I have a birth certificate for Michael I hope its within the rules to attach it. The father is Joseph (deceased) so hopefully I can get Joseph's death certificate to find out the cause of death.
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I should have said welcome to RC as well!!
Once you have the official certificates you may be able to match to this information
Let us know when it arrives and we can search again if needs be
Best of luck!
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Thanks myluck for the welcome and the info.
My Mum was Cooper so I think it's going to be the same spelling and the Joseph and Mary birth dates are out by 4-5 years assuming the 1911 census is correct. I know I really need to wait for the certificates to arrive.
It's interesting the story of your grandfathers brother it may be that it's not possible to get some information because of the politics of the time as they may have been covered up.
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Mary Anne 1901 ? you will know if right when you get the marriage cert
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Monaghan/Tullycorbet/Cussaboy/1635643/
edited to add different spelling 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Monaghan/Tullycorbett/Cussaboy/808045/
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In case correct her baptism on Oct 09 1878 = LINK (http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632794#page/19/mode/1up)
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Thanks myluck for the welcome and the info.
My Mum was Cooper so I think it's going to be the same spelling and the Joseph and Mary birth dates are out by 4-5 years assuming the 1911 census is correct. I know I really need to wait for the certificates to arrive.
It's interesting the story of your grandfathers brother it may be that it's not possible to get some information because of the politics of the time as they may have been covered up.
Don't get too caught up on accuracy of spelling and/or ages
Keep an open mind on all records that are possible until you are sure they are incorrect
Literacy levels prior to 1920 approx meant that name variations were common and based on the scribe and how they spelt the name
Also at different times people aged according to their needs :)
Some aged dramatically to gain a pension; some remained young in the hope of marrying; some just were unaware of their actual age and calculated based on other factors.
Anecdotally - this week I heard the story of Jesse Owens the American runner; he was named James Cleveland Owens but when the family moved and he started in his new school the teacher misheard his strong southern accent when he said "JC" and registered him as Jesse and he became known as this ever after!
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Mary Anne 1901 ? you will know if right when you get the marriage cert
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Monaghan/Tullycorbet/Cussaboy/1635643/
edited to add different spelling 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Monaghan/Tullycorbett/Cussaboy/808045/
Thanks I think this looks it might be right even though Michaels birth certificate shows the spelling to be Mary Anne Johnstone, the 1901 census is written Mary Ann Johnston but signed Terence Johnson transcribed Johnson and the 1911 census is signed Johnston. The Cooper census also shows Mary Ann not Mary Anne ???
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Thank you so much for the reply and sorry it would have made it easier for everyone if I had put a link for the 1911 census.
This is the same Cooper 1911 census that I referred to http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Monaghan/Clones_Urban/Annalore/804147/
The information my relatives have given me is that Michael born 4/04/1916 had a brother named James who they believe went to England there was no talk of Elizebeth but importantly Michael had a twin sister name unknown. I searched and found Ellen Cooper born same year same qtr so have requested a birth certificate for Ellen and have been waiting for that, Joseph's death certificate and Joseph and Mary Annes Marriage certificate for a few weeks now.
I have a birth certificate for Michael I hope its within the rules to attach it. The father is Joseph (deceased) so hopefully I can get Joseph's death certificate to find out the cause of death.
Hello - yes my mother was Ellen Cooper and your quite right she had a twin brother Michael who was fostered after their father died 5 days after birth ( she named my brother after him ) also older brother James .......regards Anne
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Hello Anne what a great surprise to hear from you I can't wait to inform my mother Maureen and my Aunt Patricia that I've been in contact with their cousin daughter of Michael's twin Ellen.
Since my original post I've discovered many of our ancestors back to the early 1800s and would be keen to share this with you. I'd also be interested to find out what happened to your mother Ellen and family she had.
Regards
Paul
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Hello Paul lovely to hear that .
My mum came to London where she met up with her twin Michael after many years .
She then followed after my dad (James McGonnell) to Bedford my brother Mick (died ) nearly two years ago .and my sisters Christine and Eileen all born in Ireland were left over there with relatives till a few weeks before I was born then brought over here to Bedford.
My daughter Karen is doing a family tree at the moment and happened on your post and I only saw it this morning .
My mum Ellen died in 1984 and is buried in foster hill rd cemetery Bedford.
She adored my brother who was 9 years older than me and was his wish to be buried with her and I did that for him .
I have mums birth certificate so had a good start with names etc .I left Bedford some years ago and have lived in a small village about 14 miles north of Bedford.
Regards ...Anne
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Hi Anne,
Thank you've filled in a lot of blanks in just a few lines it's only about 6 months ago that we discovered your mother Ellen.
I think we need to swap emails so we can send information but I've read its against the rules on this site. I'll have a think on how we can do that.
My family live in Northern Ireland but in 1988 Myself, my wife Marie, son Conor and daughter Kiera moved to Perth, Western Australia. We just celebrated today Conor's son Luke's 2nd birthday and my daughter Kiera now living in Canberra is expecting in April.
So it's 11pm here in Perth way past my bedtime so goodnight and hope to hear from you soon
Regards
Paul Magee
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Welcome Annemclennan and how lovely to make a connection
If you make one more comment on this topic you will have three posts
This will allow you to Private Message Paulmag33
You can click on the icon that looks like a sheet of paper in a circle on the left under the person's nom-de-plume/name
enjoy your family catch-up!
also site does not allow references to the living in case a few are included here ;)
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Hi myluck! thank you for your help again
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Hi Anne,
You did say Bedford an amazing coincidence as my mums sister Agnes (Aggie) has lived in a village close to Bedford for most of her life. She has 2 daughters so possibly you have crossed paths.
I have in the past found your parents marriage registration Dublin 1938 but put it aside. It gave Joseph Cooper as Ellen's father but it didn't say deceased so I was unsure if it was the same Ellen. Also my wife's maiden name is Hyland not a common name but the marriage witnessed by Joseph and Mary Hyland.
Moderator comment: only small portions of certificates posted and then only to assist with deciphering etc.