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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Buckinghamshire => Topic started by: johngosling on Monday 08 August 16 21:23 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I'm looking to find a connection to the Tyrrell family of Castlethorpe.
I have a Charles Panter marrying an Elizabeth Swannell on Feb 25th 1762.
They had 20 children, including 5 with a middle name of Tyrrell.
This would seem to imply a connection to the Tyrrell family in an earlier generation, which would be pretty amazing as the family has some famous connections, including a granddaughter of Sir Walter Raleigh buried at Castlethorpe.
But I can't see that connection.
The Tyrell family tree can be pieced together as they crop up in various books, but they seem to fade away around the same time my tree kicks off.
I have an idea that the connection may exist from Joseph Swannell. He was the father of Elizabeth Swannell, and described in his will as a gentleman of Stony Stratford, a stones throw from Castlethorpe.
I've yet to find his birth. He married his wife Mary Chatum in London on June 3 1730, where he was described as "of Newport Pagnell", and where I believe I see a first son born in 1731 - the rest of the children were born in Castlethorpe.
I wonder if his mother was a Tyrell?
Has anyone else being researching any of these folk?
Many thanks,
John
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJDB-X6J
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I have a vague interest in the Swannells, but not anywhere near your Castlethorpe line.
Mine, as far as I have found, were from Dinton in Bucks, c1748, so a bit removed from yours.
However, from the Marriage Bonds List,(from the Centre of Bucks Studies, Aylesbury), there is a Marriage bond for Charles Panter(aged 22, Occ. Miller) & Elizabeth Swannell(aged 19). Both of Castlethorpe, and married same. Dated - 23 Feb 1762.
There are also these Bonds.
Joseph Swannell,(aged Junior), to Elizabeth Nichols(aged 25). both of Castlethorpe. Dated - 26 April 1773. No place of marriage given.
Mathew Swannell,(aged 50 . Occ. Famer. Widowed), to Ann Whitehall (aged 40), both of Padbury, Married same. Dated - 26 April 1773.
Mathew Swannell,(aged 26. Occ. Collarmaker of Winslow) to Ann Whitton(aged 19, of Aston Clinton). Dated - 27 Nov 1774. No place of marriage given.
Mathew Swannell,(aged 23, Yeoman of Adderbury, Oxon), to Mary Poulton(aged 33 of North Crawley). Place of marriage - North Crawley. Dated - 4 Dec 1782.
William Swannell,(aged 26. Occ.Butcher) to Mary Johnson(Widow). Both of Castlethorpe, married same. Dated - 24 Aug 1776.
William Swannell,(aged 23 of Radwell, Beds), to Mary Pancoust(aged 19 of Filgrave). Married Filgrave or Tyringham. Dated - 8 Aug 1782.
John Swannell,(aged 24. Occ.Butcher, of Castlethorpe), to Sarah Shene(aged 22 of Buckingham). Married - Buckingham. Dated - 13 feb 1803.
John Pancourt Swannell,(Occ. Yeoman of Newport Pagnell), to Ann Adkins( aged, Minor, of Lathbury). Married at Lathbury. Dated - 17 April 1806.
Ann Marie Swannell,(aged Minor) of Filgrave, to John Toller(aged minor, Yeoman of Kings Ripton, Hunts). Married at Filgrave. Dated - 14 Jan 1811.
Ann Swannell,(aged 24), to Charles Tooth(aged 32. Occ. Farmer). Both of Castlethorpe. Married same. Dated - 5 April 1762.
Mary Swannell ,(of Tyringham), to Amos Westoby of Emberton(Occ.Clerk). Married Tyringham. Dated - 19 Aug 1814.
Catherine Swannell,(of Beachampton), to Thaomas Wiseman(of Beachampton). Dated 1758. No place of marriage given.
Mary Swannell,(aged 28 of Beachampton), to George Friday,(aged 28. Occ. Servant of Beachampton). Married Beachampton. Dated - 1 June 1765.
Elizabeth Swannell,(of Filgrave), to Robert Gibbons, (Yeoman, of Milton Earnest, Beds). No place of marriage given. Dated - 30 March 1803.
Harriett Swannell,(of Filgrave), to Thomas Inskip,(of Shefford Hardwicke, Beds.). Married Filgrave. Dated - 30 April 1817.
Francis Swannell,(aged 20 of Castlethorpe), to William Ladd(Occ. Officer of Excise, of Hanslope). Married Castlethorpe. Dated - 17 Dec 1773.
Mary Swannell, (aged 29 of Castlethorpe), to William Nicholls,(aged 24, Yeoman of Simpson). married Castlethorpe. Dated - 25 July 1771.
Mary Swannell,(of Thornton), to John Pargeter,(Servant of Thornton). No pace of marriage given. Dated - 20 Dec 1797.
There are a few Tyrell marriage bonds from 1762 to 1841, but scattered from Newport Pagnell to Leckhamstead, North Crawley, Hoggeston, Chalfont StGiles, and Weston Underwood. About 8 in all.
Let me know if you require these, or not.
Hope this helps a bit.
Steve. :)
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Thanks for the kind replies. Funnily enough I was in the Aylesbury record just last week and looked at many of the marriage bonds, including the one for Charles Panter and Elizebeth Swannell. Lovely documents, and the this one in particular included a letter written by my elusive Joseph Swannell giving permission for the marriage.
The record cited on Familysearch is a son of Joseph Swannell, so Joseph Jnr, as he is referred to elsewhere in documents.
Thanks again.
John
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There is a FREE Excel download of the Bonds List from the CBS web site. It's worth getting for future reference, almost 15,000 Bonds, so about 30,000 names.
Steve.:)
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I have a Ben Tyrrell born in North Crawley in 1788 and his daughter Sarah Rebecca born 1825. Mum was Hannah?
Are these linked to your Tyrrells?
Mike
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Sorry, I don't think so. Problem really is that I don't have any Tyrrells, just the suggestion that there is a connection :-)
I have a Ben Tyrrell born in North Crawley in 1788 and his daughter Sarah Rebecca born 1825. Mum was Hannah?
Are these linked to your Tyrrells?
Mike
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When ive seen similar naming patterns, it follows that the middle name is the mothers maiden name. Now you mention her name is Swannell, so i would look at the possibility that there was another marraige to a lady called Tyrell.
Are the five children with middle name Tyrell all consequetive? this would again suggest a different mother. If they are not, are you sure they are all children of this couple or is another family nearby with similar names?
Mike
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That's a really interesting observation Mike. The Tyrrell middle names are a bit clumped. I had a vague idea there might have been two different famiilies involved, but it looks like quite a tight knit group of people and a pretty solid set of parish records, so had not gone much beyond filing the idea in the back of my mind. I'll have to revisit the idea.
Thanks
John
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So we need to see if there is a Charles Painter/ Tyrell marriage. Probably north Bucks.
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Perhaps, but I have no evidence his wife predeceased him. Charles I think was 1739-1786, Elizabeth (nee Swannell) was 1742-1812.
There's also a lot of other documents that seem to suggest no first wife; nothing conclusive I concede, but the parish records seem good for Castlethorpe and they didn't seem to stray from the village, so there's no earlier death for an Elizabeth Panter and no second marriage, though of course if a 2nd wife did exist and was not of Castlethorpe, then the marriage could well have occurred in her home parish.
So we need to see if there is a Charles Painter/ Tyrell marriage. Probably north Bucks.
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Has Elizabeth married twice?
She may have been married previously, and the children named Tyrell have a different father.
I can't look up at the moment as away from home, but I would initially work on the assumption the Tyrell children took there mothers maiden name.
It seems common practice at the time anyway.
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Just to throw this in. The first born of Charles Panter and Elizabeth Swannell was I believe Mary, born 1763. She died 1843. I have her death certificate under her married name of Nichols. Age of death 80. So a pretty good match. Elizabeth Pantrler (nee Swannell's) will of 1812 mentions several children including a Richard Tyrrell Panter (who actually I have yet to find a birth for) but also a Barnabus born 1782 and most telling, her daughter Mary Nichols. Now I come to talk about this (it really does help to chew the fat) that would seem to suggest a continuity for Charles Panter and Elizabeth Swannell. The only fly in the ointment is that I have a second Mary born to them in 1774, and wouldn't you believe it, a Mary Tyrrell Panter! So it seems a bit odd that we have two Mary's who would both have been alive at the same time. Given the gap between them, I can't believe the two are getting transposed.
So complicated. But thanks everyone for helping out, it really does help to be able to write this stuff down and get feedback.
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ok, curve ball time.
Your Elizabeth Panter was born a Tyrell. She married and became Swannell, then remarried to become Panter but used her original maiden name with the kids.
So do we know when or where she was born?
Mike
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Elizabeth was born a Swannell, 1742 to Joseph Swannell and Mary Chatum. There's a useful will for Joseph dated 1775 that mentions most of his children and his granddaughter Mary Panter.
I've yet to find a birth for Joseph so have wondered if his mother was a Tyrrell.
ok, curve ball time.
Your Elizabeth Panter was born a Tyrell. She married and became Swannell, then remarried to become Panter but used her original maiden name with the kids.
So do we know when or where she was born?
Mike
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It's certainly complicated. I've seen naming like this in my own research and it's pretty much mothers maiden name.
But as you are certain her maiden name wasn't Tyrell, it's much harder to work back from..
There should, as you rightly say, be a relationship, but if there isn't it's even harder.
Tyrell is an easy enough name to find, I briefly found them in Maids Moreton, Hardmead, North Crawley in several families, although not Castlethorpe. Yet.
Mike
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This naming thing can occur as far back as Great Grandmothers maiden name, which I came across only 2 days ago, doing research in my own tree.
Sometimes a curse, sometimes a relief, but in my case, a welcome relief.
Steve.:)
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Yes, happened to me like that on a totally unrelated line to the present conundrum. Solved a major family mystery as to why repeated people including my grandfather had a middle name of Mowbray.
This naming thing can occur as far back as Great Grandmothers maiden name, which I came across only 2 days ago, doing research in my own tree.
Sometimes a curse, sometimes a relief, but in my case, a welcome relief.
Steve.:)
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In reality, the only way to find out is keep going backwards until it's answered, and not go chasing the name ahead of yourself.
I've also noticed a couple of Nichols names in the Bonds list that have second names...........
John Bannister Nicholl(of Ravenstone), married Ann Plowman @ Wavendon. 17 Oct 1821 or 1831.
Thomas Kightly Nicholls(of Ravenstone), married Ann Bannister(of Olney). 19 Dec 1779. No place of marriage given.
Anyway, I'll eave it at that. ;D
Steve. :)