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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kincardineshire => Topic started by: melsimba on Wednesday 10 August 16 01:32 BST (UK)
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John Forbes born in Banchory Ternan , Kincardine , 1853 . He is 8 years old in 1861 living with Ann Forbes as grand son , I have looked in Scotlands pjeople but can not find proof of who his father is or if in fact if his mother is the daughter Ann Forbes ( Same name as her mother ) . He is listed in 1871 as working in Skeene , parish . I can not find anything on his birth and would like a little help .
Thank you Melanie
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Hi Melanie,
Can you list who John's grandparents were with grandmother Ann's maiden name, when/where they married & list names of all children born to them with yrs/places of birth please?
Are you sticking rigidly with 1853 as his birth year as you really need to widen the window 2 yrs either side at least.
What was the area named in 1861 where you found John?
Do you have the details of that census please?
Who else was in the household & what were their ages?
Did Ann have a son George?
If so, have you considered him to be the father?...
Different area of Kincardine (Nigg) although I haven't looked into this
John Forbes b 1852
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBHG-7YJ
Have you found where children are on later census'?
Annie
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Hello Annie
Johns grandparents were Ann Thow , born 1799 Angus , and John Forbes 1799 Glentannar , but he died sometime between 1851 and 1859 ,( haven't found his death certificate yet ,but thats another brickwall )
In 1861 the widow Ann Forbes was living in Charleston ,Aboyne with her daughter Ann born in Birse 1828 , and the Grandson John who is 8 years born in 1853 , , John listed as being born in Banchory Ternan , Kincardineshire,.
I have looked for him on Scotlands People , with no luck . If he was an illigitimate son would there not be a church record ?
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Hi found this if any good ,
1841 census = Toll House,Aboyne / Glentanner
John Forbes..(40) Toll keeper
Ann Forbes (40)
Ann Forbes...(12) daughter
David Forbes...(8)..son
Mary Forbes...(3) daughter.
1851 census = 28 Charleston road,Charleston
John Forbes..(52)...Toll collector....(b) Glentanner,
Ann Forbes...(52)..wife..(b) ...Glenesk.
Ann....daughter....(26)..daughter...(b) Birse.
David...son ..(18)...(b) birse.
Mary...daughter (13)....(b) Aboyne.
was Ann definitly little johns mother ???? or could he have been David Forbes son ? and living with his grandmother and aunt Ann in 1861??
cheers :)
Snowolf
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Hi , well this family must have done something which I can not figure out ,I will explain .....Firstly , I. have those same census records ,in 1871 I did find John Forbes about 18 working in Skene who was born in Banchory Ternan after that there is no trace . He very well could be Davids son , but for the life of me I cant find a birth record for him . Now here is where it gets complicated , Mary Forbes had a illegitimate child in April 1853 ,.baptized as James Gordon .
But in 1861 and 1871 there is suddenly a Ann Gordon as her child ,then no trace of Ann , I thought for a while possibly Mary and Ann gor pregnant by the same man Peter Gordon but he only choose to acknowledge one child .
I really don't know..........I am open to theories 😀
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Well, here goes, given the constraints that I only have access to free stuff and know little about the Scottish system other than civil registration didn't being until 1/1/1855 ...
Also living with the family in 1851 was Peter Gordon, age 40, wood merchant, born Crathie
1861 census Toll House, Charlestown (4 rooms)
Forbes Ann Hd 64 Toll Collector b Angus, Glenesk
Forbes Ann dau 26 b Aberdeenshire, Birse
Forbes John g/son 8 b Kincardineshire, Banchory Ternan
Duncan William boarder 41 b Aberdeenshire, St Nicholas
(freecen)
8/4/1853 Aboyne birth of James Gordon son of Peter Gordon and Mary Forbes
21/8/1853 Aboyne christening of James Gordon son of Peter Gordon and Mary Forbes
(familysearch)
Marriage 26/11/1859 Aboyne Mary Forbes and George Tough (familysearch)
1861 census Tollhouse Course, Coull (3 rooms)
Tough George Hd 27 Ag Lab/Toll Keeper b Premnay
Tough Mary Wife 23 Ag Lab wife b Aboyne
Tough Mary day 7m Ag Lab dau b Coull
Gordon Ann stepdau 7 Scholar b Aboyne
Reid William boarder 28 Ag Lab b Cluny
(freecen)
Aberdeen and North East Scotland FHS has an index to Aboyne MI's
Stone 87 John Forbes no date
findmypast newspapers has "Montrose, Arbroath and Brechin Review" 27/8/1852 Deeside Gathering - 2nd place David Forbes, Aboyne (tossing the caber or similar), but nothing for John Forbes
There are lots of bits of this jigsaw missing
John Forbes death and burial 1851-1859
What happened to his widow Ann after 1861
What happened to his daughter Ann and son David
What happened to Peter Gordon
Where/when was Ann Gordon (circa 1854) born
My feeling is that the lodger Peter Gordon and teenage Mary Forbes had two children, James and Ann (hopefully not child abuse). Peter died/did a runner. Mary Forbes went on to marry George Tough. Her son James(John) was living with his grandmother in 1861.
She had her daughter Ann living with her and her new husband George Tough in 1861.
Thoughts
In 1851 John Forbes was a proprietor of house - what's that?
I can find Charlestown Road, Aboyne on Streetview, but can't identify number 28. 4 rooms is above average given the number of people living there.
A toll keeper would presumably need to be literate, numerate and honest!
A map of the tolls around Aboyne would be good
Aboyne and Banchory are very picturesque places and were popular with Queen Victoria in the 1850's
Over to you
Valerie
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Hello .
Ok here's what I do know
Ann Forbes is the only one listed in Charleston Aboyne in 1855 valuation records so John must have died between 1851 and 1855 .
Ann Forbes later dies in 1864
The daughter Ann Forbes married John Walker from Lumphanan parish in 1868 .but dies in 1869
I am thinking possibly Ann Gordon either died early or immigrated somewhere?.
The James Gordon /Ann Gordon mystery might be twins but have no clue .
Peter Gordon the father ended up in Bancory Ternan marrying Christina Brodie and had 3 sons then died in 1894.
Lingering questions :
Where did John Forbes 1826 (Anne older brother)
What happened to Ann Gordon
Who's parents are John Forbes 1853
What became of David Forbes .
This family is one brick wall after another
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Hi
Yes, you are right, a tricky family who unfortunately are right on the cusp of civil registration. I feel you need to be extremely methodical in your search and really get to know the area and the parish boundaries. Genuki is great for this. Then make a list of who/where/when to see where the unchecked black holes are. It will probably keep you busy for years.
I have discovered that a proprietor of houses owned land and houses which he rented out. Ann Thow's parents appear to be John Thow and Jean Gordon, so was Peter Gordon a distant relative? The Peter Gordon who married Christina Brodie would have been 60-70 when they had children.
Peter Gordon and Mary Forbes baptised a son, James Gordon at Aboyne on 21/8/1853. The baby had been born on 8/4/1853. If he was a twin the other baby would have been baptised at the same time. So, unlikely to have been one of twins. I wonder what got Peter and Mary into church for the baptism? Could it have been because Mary was already pregnant (with Ann) again?
We know that Mary Forbes (nee Thow) had a grandson who was 8 in the 1861 census, recorded as John Forbes. We know that she had a grandson, James Gordon who would have been days short of his 8th birthday at the time of the 1861 census who hasn't been found recorded yet, or as a death or burial. There is a good chance they are one and the same little boy. Imagine how easy it would be to grow up in a family of Forbes and think of yourself as one and for James to become John over time …
I'd also consider joining The Aberdeen and NE Scotland FHS for a year, nothing to lose and lots of local knowledge and maybe additional access to records.
Just curious, where do you fit into this family? Heaps of Forbes, many extremely affluent, and no shortage of Thows around here as well.
Valerie
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Hi
Yes Peter Gordon is a distant relative to the family as Ann Forbes (Thow) mother Jean Thow is a cousin to Peters Father .Incidently there is a ton of info on the Gordons of Crathie. Peters parents are Peter Gordon and Margaret Riach (or Reoch).
Mary Forbes and George Tough are my Great Great Grandparents .There son George Tough 1862 married Bathia Bannerman they moved to BC ,Canada and had my Grampa William Rettie Tough
The James/Ann Gordon dilemma may be the situation where Peter the father only wanted to acknowledge one instead of paying for two , thats a theory someone mentioned ,but we still have missing information. Or he died after the baptism ?.
It has been years into this mystery but I won't quit until I find the paperwork .what do you think of the theory of David Forbes going to South Africa ?
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Hi
I'm quite prepared to believe that David Forbes went to South Africa. He has a marginally less common name and was around for most of the census returns, but I can't find him. The last sighting I have of him is 1852 when he competed at the Deeside Gathering. The problem there is that the further away he moved, the more likely he is to give his place of birth as just 'Scotland". Do you have family anecdotes or other clues? Did other people from the area move with him?
I think finding the origins of John Forbes snr is going to be extremely difficult. It is such a prolific name. From Genuki I learn that in the 18th century Aboyne and Glentanner had separate churches, both in the district of Kincardine O'Neil and that the records are sadly wanting. A couple of generations back from John snr there are Forbes a plenty in these places. Unfortunately, probably too many to try to build families to see where your John might fit in. Have you been able to check wills to see whether John is mentioned in one? If he was a proprietor of houses he might have inherited them.
I am extremely glad that one of the little Toughs made it to Canada and prospered!
Good luck and happy hunting
Valerie
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Hello
Yes I have spent much time and effort trying to piece other families together from around Aboyne Birse and a little in Angus. I think there was a history of Toll keepers within the Forbes families .I am still trying to contact the person who's Tree had David Forbes included .
When I get rich I will send for the actual marriage and death certificate .......but till then , thank you for the fresh ideas and interest .
Melanie
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When I get rich I will send for the actual marriage and death certificate
If they're on scotlandspeople.gov.uk (free to join), Credits cost £0.25p each and are available in batches of 30 (£7.50)BP
The marriage & death cert. would each cost 6 credits (£1.50)BP (£3.00 in total).
Annie
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Oh, I had thought it was in South Africa .....
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Ah, sorry, I didn't pay enough attention i.e. it won't be on SP.
Annie
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I am being sent the death cert from someone ,and i will let you know the results .......fingers crossed !
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The Peter Gordon you are searching for is a son of Peter Gordon (1765–1847) and Margaret Riach (1774–1817). Peter Gordon Snr was born at ‘Tilfogar’ to James Gordon and Jannet Smith (or Gow) and baptised 11 January 1766 at Crathie. Peter married Margaret Riach (also sp. ‘Reoch’) (1774–1817) on 27 August 1796 at Glenmuick. They had eight children. Peter Gordon died at ‘Khantore’ on 2 December 1847.
Peter Gordon Jnr (1812–1894)
Peter Gordon became a wood merchant and eventually retired to 9, Arbeadie Terrace, Banchory Ternan, Kincardineshire. He married Christina Brodie (1855–1932) late in life, and died on 19 April 1894, leaving John (b. 1877; d. 29 May 1901; Standerton, Gert Sibande, Mpumalanga, South Africa); James (b. 1879), and Peter Gordon (b. 9 October 1881).
See: www.familysearch.org
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The Peter Gordon you are searching for is a son of Peter Gordon (1765–1847) and Margaret Riach (1774–1817). Peter Gordon Snr was born at ‘Tilfogar’ to James Gordon and Jannet Smith (or Gow) and baptised 11 January 1766 at Crathie. Peter married Margaret Riach (also sp. ‘Reoch’) (1774–1817) on 27 August 1796 at Glenmuick. They had eight children. Peter Gordon died at ‘Khantore’ on 2 December 1847.
Peter Gordon Jnr (1812–1894)
Peter Gordon became a wood merchant and eventually retired to 9, Arbeadie Terrace, Banchory Ternan, Kincardineshire. He married Christina Brodie (1855–1932) late in life, and died on 19 April 1894, leaving John (b. 1877; d. 29 May 1901; Standerton, Gert Sibande, Mpumalanga, South Africa); James (b. 1879), and Peter Gordon (b. 9 October 1881).
See: www.familysearch.org
Hi,
Perhaps a long shot but I have a Gordon marrying a Riach. Details are:
David Gordon & Christian Riach.
9th Sept 1770
Parish: Tarland and Migivie.
They are my 5x great-grandparents.
This is just north of Aboyne and Deeside, but falls under Aberdeenshire.
Unfortunately, I cannot pinpoint Christian Riach's baptism. There are a few with an alternate spelling of Reith, but they are all in a relatively close area so it could be any of them. Same problem with David Gordon.
I have the following children for David Gordon and Christian Riach/Reith;
William b.1771 - Old Machar
Charles b.1791 - Banchory-Devenick
Margaret b.1793 - Banchory-Devenick
I have no doubt there were probably more children to this couple but they don't appear to have been baptised or there are no records.
Just reaching out in case there is a connection here due to similar names marrying each other in the same time periods and area.
Liv.
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Thank you very much for all the added Gordon information . I am sorry I have not had an opportunity to focus on Family history for quite a while..I know Peter Gordon did come from quite a famous list of Gordons and his branch is well worth my time now that ive gotten the bug again .......
PS I am still in search of his child Ann Gordon (or James )? with Mary Forbes ....which dissapeared from any records after 1871 census..........Cheers Melanie