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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: GerryLS on Friday 12 August 16 16:30 BST (UK)
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I've hit a brick wall. I'm looking for some proof that my John Joseph Tobin born 15 May 1895 was born in Ireland. I only have his son's stories from his mother that give me this info. One son says he was from the Thurles or Clonmel area of Tipperary and another says Kilkenny. I checked all the John Tobin's born in Ireland between the end of 1894 to the end of 1895, none match.
He married Emily Curran in Glasgow in 1930 and died in 1947. I have found him on the 1939 census but I can't find any information about him before 1930.
Both his marriage and death certificates say his father was Edward Tobin (blacksmith) and his mother was Margaret Dwyer. I can't find a marriage certificate for them in Ireland or anywhere else (checked Ancestry, Family Search, Roots Ireland, Find my Past, Scotland's People and a few other sites). I can't find their death certificates for certain either. They are both listed as deceased on John's marriage certificate so before 1930. I can't find these three names together on the 1901 or 1911 Irish censuses.
He supposedly served in WW1 and was wounded and stayed in a hospital in Belgium but I can't find any service records to match him. He also was said to have twin brothers who also served and died in France. Not sure on their names, so can't find them either. The fourteen/nineteen society couldn't find a match either.
Any ideas of where I can look next? I've exhausted all the avenues I can think of.
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Rootsireland has a John Tobin b. 1892 in Tipperary father Edmond backsmith.
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Ajohn~%20%2Bsurname%3Atobin~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Atipperary~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1891-1892~
John Tobin
England and Wales Census, 1911
Name John Tobin
Event Type Census
Event Date 1911
County Overseas Military
residence: 1911 , Jullundur Punjab India, Overseas Military,
Age 36
Birthplace St Marys Clonmel Ireland, County Tipperary
Record Type Institution
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Yeah, I've just spent the past month researching that family as I was sure that could be the right one, but I got the 1939 Scotland census which lists his birthdate, given by himself rather that the rough estimate from his marriage and death certificates.
Also the mother's name is off, it's Margaret Usher, well the actual name is Margaret Maher on the BC but I think it's a transcription error. It's utterly confusing, but I've looked carefully into it and I don't think it's him due to this new info.
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John Tobin
Age 20
Birth 1894
Tipperary, Ireland
Service number 11012
Regiment Royal Irish Regiment
Unit / Battalion 3rd Battalion
Year 1914
Series description WO 363 - First World War service records 'burnt documents'
Archive Copyright The National Archives
Have you checked out the above, gives address as Clonmell. There is also another same name with a different service number but think he transferred and it is the same one.
Cas
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Familysearch record
John Joseph Tobin
United Kingdom, World War I Service Records
Name John Joseph Tobin
Event Type Military Service
Event Year 1918
Age 27
Military Company/Regiment Royal Irish Fusiliers
Military Regiment 29618
Military Battalion 3rd Battalion
Birth Year (Estimated) 1891
Birthplace , , Ireland
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Gerry,
It's best to post a link to your previous thread even though now you are looking for a different man.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=753489.0
Otherwise, you might have to constantly be explaining re any wrong information.
Regards
Heywood
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Here is the other but think the same person.
John Tobin
Age 25
Birth 1894
Tipperary, Ireland
Service number 92648
Regiment King's (Liverpool) Regiment
Unit / Battalion 2nd Garrison Battalion
Year 1919
Series description WO 363 - First World War service records 'burnt documents'
Archive Copyright The National Archives
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The record of the 1892 birth gives John's father's occupation as blacksmith....
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I've been through the military records on Ancestry and Find my Past and I think I've ruled them all out either due to age, or one joined in the US which I'm pretty sure my John never lived in. I'll check them again.
Thanks heywood, didn't think of that.
familyroutes - I know, it seemed so possible because of the blacksmith thing, it follows Edmond on every record, but I cannot connect the Margaret Usher/Maher to my Margaret Dwyer. It looks like she remarried after Edmond's death, but to a Corbett not a Dwyer. And the birthdate. I really tried to make it work.
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I'm looking for some proof that my John Joseph Tobin born 15 May 1895 was born in Ireland. I only have his son's stories from his mother that give me this info. One son says he was from the Thurles or Clonmel area of Tipperary and another says Kilkenny. I checked all the John Tobin's born in Ireland between the end of 1894 to the end of 1895, none match.
He married Emily Curran in Glasgow in 1930 and died in 1947. I have found him on the 1939 census but I can't find any information about him before 1930.
Both his marriage and death certificates say his father was Edward Tobin (blacksmith) and his mother was Margaret Dwyer. I can't find a marriage certificate for them in Ireland or anywhere else (checked Ancestry, Family Search, Roots Ireland, Find my Past, Scotland's People and a few other sites). I can't find their death certificates for certain either. They are both listed as deceased on John's marriage certificate so before 1930. I can't find these three names together on the 1901 or 1911 Irish censuses.
You need to consider that the information you are starting with is not accurate. If his parents died when he was young he could have given the wrong details when he got married and the informant used those same details for the death certificate.
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Long shot here but based on problems of literacy & accents etc
Could the person who wrote down his mother's maiden name as DWYER have misheard MAHER
Try saying the names out loud with flattened vowels
Just a thought for the pot!
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Long shot here but based on problems of literacy & accents etc
Could the person who wrote down his mother's maiden name as DWYER have misheard MAHER
Try saying the names out loud with flattened vowels
Just a thought for the pot!
Interesting though, considering the Ussher Maher issue earlier in the other thread.
I'm looking for information on a John Tobin born 6.11.1892 to an Edmond Tobin and Margaret Maher in Tipperary.
I'm trying to connect him to the Edmond Tobin and Margaret Ussher in Clonmel. Edmond Tobin was a blacksmith and almost all the records connected to him mention this. He had several children with his second wife Margaret Ussher in Clonmel between 1884 and 1891 and then one child in Tipperary in 1894. He died in Tipperary in 1895. But in 1892 a John Tobin was born in Tipperary to an Edmond Tobin blacksmith and Margaret Maher. I have the transcript of the birth registry and it's clearly Maher, but I can't find any marriage for an Edmond Tobin and Margaret Maher, nor any more children. I also have the transcript for the marriage of Edmond Tobin and Margaret Ussher and the Ussher does look like Maher when written so I wonder if it was a mistake or an illegitimate birth or what.
Could it be she isn't Ussher at all.
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aghadowey - yes, I realise this, but I can really only work with what I got. And I have to assume that even if his parents died young, which is what I thought with the John Tobin of the Edmond Tobin blacksmith, he'd still know his birthdate, at least the day and the month if not the year.
myluck! - I thought that at first until I found out the birthdate info. But there's also the problem that I'm pretty sure the Maher is a transcription error for Usher. Margaret Usher had 6 other children with Edmond Tobin, on either side of the John born in 1892. I've not been able to find a marriage certificate for Maher/Tobin or any other children. So I'm pretty sure it was the same family.
I have a paper trail from Margaret Ussher/Usher's birth to her marriage to Edmond Tobin to her remarriage to the Corbett. I'm pretty sure she was an Usher not a Maher. The only thing might be that he was an illegitimate birth and Edmond Tobin had an affair with this Margaret Maher, but no one can find his baptism to prove this. And would she be brave enough to put his name on the birth certificate if it was an affair/illegitimate child?
The reason I need all this info to work out properly is that my British husband's job relies on being an EU citizen. If we can prove his grandfather was Irish he can apply to be registered as an Irish Foreign Birth and get Irish citizenship and keep his job if Brexit should come to pass. So I really need things to be pretty indisputable, even if I need a complicated paper trail to prove it. So I think a different birth date and mother's maiden name will not convince them.
Thanks for trying and keep throwing any ideas at me as I'm desperate. I'm still waiting on the priest from the parish he was married in to check the Chancery records to see if there was any note on his marriage papers about where he was born as he'd possibly have to prove he was baptised as a Catholic to be married. That would give us a place to look hopefully. There was nothing in the registry book so I'm thinking it's a long shot there will be anything else, but fingers crossed.
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aghadowey - yes, I realise this, but I can really only work with what I got. And I have to assume that even if his parents died young, which is what I thought with the John Tobin of the Edmond Tobin blacksmith, he'd still know his birthdate, at least the day and the month if not the year.
My father-in-law, born early 1900s, could never remember his own birthdate as 'no one worried about that sort of thing' but would always say it was 'early in the year' so don't assume he knew the correct date.
Going back to the Edmond Tobin/Margaret Ussher couple- Margaret Usher had 6 other children with Edmond Tobin, on either side of the John born in 1892.
Does the 1892 birth fit in this chronologically? in other words, was there enough time before and after to fit in with the other births you found.
Have you checked with baptismal records for all the children to see if the priest recorded anything with the name Dwyer?
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so don't assume he knew the correct date. - But I kind of have to. The Immigration Office or Passport Office won't accept me saying, well I know he said his birthdate was 15.5.1895 but I think he was wrong and it was 8.11.1892 because some things fit with the other family.
Yes they fit chronologically, the John Tobin was born in November 1892, 5 children were born before him in Clonmel up to March 1891, but one sister was born in Tipperary in Jul 1894 and then Edmond died in Tipperary in Apr 1895.
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Have you checked with baptismal records for all the children to see if the priest recorded anything with the name Dwyer?
Yes, there's nothing that says Dwyer on any of the papers I've found for civil births, birth certificates, marriages or deaths. Not even the witnesses names. I thought I found a Margaret Tobin who married a Michael Dwyer in the area, but I'm pretty sure she's 10 years younger than the Margaret Usher Tobin I have. The family is in the 1901 and 1911 censuses with year of birth, but I've asked the Waterford genealogy office to check the records to see if they say widow or spinster, but I haven't heard anything back from them yet.
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so don't assume he knew the correct date. The Immigration Office or Passport Office won't accept me saying, well I know he said his birthdate was 15.5.1895
I can see your problem.My father-in-law,like aghadowey's, didn't know the date or the year of his birth and his family were all literate. He just knew which sibling he was older than! Likewise my friend's father didn't know his birthday. They were both from country towns in the 1910's and there didn't seem to be much notice paid to birthdays!
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Well, he might have just made something up but he stuck to it. Even though the marriage certificates and death certificate only give ages, I figured out from the dates of the events and the age given that the 15.5.1895 would have been right.
The only age that doesn't match is his burial record which said he was 56 instead of 52, but someone else would have given that info, possibly his brother in law who was the witness on his death certificate. And if I use the 1892 date instead he would have been just 55, not 56.
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Could you try proving that he wasn't born on 15.5.1895.
You could try the GRO and explain your problem
The General Register Office can be contacted as follows:
Email Address: gro@groireland.ie
By Telephone: Direct Dial: +353(0)90 6632900
LoCall: 1890 252076
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I remember back in the early 1980s talking to researchers in Dublin whose clients needed to prove Irish citizenship through a grandparents in order to leave some African countries like Rhodesia. It wasn't always easy for them to find the correct certificates based on family details.
Could you post the details you know about Margaret Ussher- census links, etc. as I still want to try something.
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That's part of the problem Aghadowney, they haven't been found in the census.
I don't know if it's possible to access the records but did John get an OAP in the UK?
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I'm not sure what I would say to the GRO, I have GRO records that say he was born in 1895. He may have been wrong about his DOB but how can I prove it. I can't find any info on him before 1930 and his son knew of no family in Scotland. I don't know when or how he came there even.
Margaret Usher (the name changes between Usher and Ussher on various records but is Usher on her BC and Ussher on her marriage certificate) born 05-Jun-1854 Kilsheenan, Waterford. Father James Usher, mother Catherine Dee.
Married Edmond Tobin blacksmith 27-Nov-1883 Clonmel.
Edmond Tobin died 28-Apr-1895 Tipperary.
We can't find Margaret or any of her children for sure on the 1901/1911 census but we have found possibles with the children sent to relatives or out as servants or boarders. And there is a Margaret Tobin of the right age who is a servant for a priest on both census.
Margaret Tobin listed as a widow, with father James Ussher, married James X Corbet 13-Sep-1921, Tipperary.
I can't find a death certificate for Margaret Corbet but the Rootsireland records don't go much past 1920.
OAP - what's that, Old Age Pension? He died in work at 1947 at the age of 52, so I doubt it. I can't even find a war pension for him or his wife Emily Curran Tobin.
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Did you notice when you were looking at the children of Edmond Tobin that there were 2 Mary Tobin registered within a week of each other with parents Edmond Tobin and Margaret Usher...one in Tipperary and one in Waterford.
The sponsor in Tipp was the grandmother Kate Usher...while in Waterford the sponsor was Michael Meagher ... pronounce Maher
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yes, one's a baptism record and one's a civil registration. Maher/Maegher is a pretty popular name in Tipperary, I'm led to believe, and I'm not sure if it's a relative or a friend.
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With regard to the EU and Irish citizenship ( a member of my extended family is wanting the same), I would think that you are going to have to work with the evidence you have - which is Tobin/Dwyer.
Even if you found the Tobin/Usher family, it would not help your cause - would it?
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That's what I was thinking unless I could find something that connects the two names like a later marriage.
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you can get Margaret Corbett deaths here up to 1958
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1408347
and some Wills here in either name but how will you know if you have right one
Search archives
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/search-the-archives/
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3 Siblings of Margaret Usher emigrated to Boston early 1880s Michael,Ella F and Catherine their occupations were Cook's
Ella died 1917 age 50 ?
Catherine died 1904 age 43 ? both parents James and Catherine Dee
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M9T5-4Z6
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Baptisms for children of James Usher & Catherine Dee (Kilcash)-
1848 Maryann
1851 Michael
1854 Margaret
1856 Ellen
1858 Martin
1860 Michael
there was also c1861 Catherine (died 1904 Massachusetts)
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Ella did die in 1917- scanned image of register lists parents as James Usher & Catherine Dee.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:23RK-T3M
I've been hoping to find some of those Usher siblings in Boston with Tobin children but no luck so far.
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There is a John Tobin that joined the army in WW1 in Boston and then lists his permanent address as Clonmel but the date of birth doesn't match my John or the Usher Tobin one and it lists his brother in Boston as William and I have found no William born to the Usher Tobin's. I'll find the link in a bit.
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http://search.findmypast.ie/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007282772%2f00190&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7282772%2f18%2f188
Top of the Casualty Form says his DOB is July 1890 and down the side it gives his brother William as next of kin with an Allston, Mass address, but at the bottom it just says 'Brother' with a Cashel address.
There's no stories of my John Joseph ever being in the US.
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I've found several John Tobin's born in the Waterford/Tipperary area, and 2 with July 1890 birthdates, but none with 25 July 1890. I can't find a William with the same parents as any of the Johns.
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I found WWI and WWII draft registration cards for a John Joseph Tobin born Co. Tipperary (WWI- ? July 1890 "natural born citizen (father a citizen)" living in Newtown, Mass.) (WWII 22 July 1890, living in Dorchester, Mass.). Looks like he's son of David Tobin & Bridget Barrett.
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Dwyer Tobin Cousins ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24QN-218
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MJ1W-VK6
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The John who served in WW2 from Mass definitely wasn't my John. He was in Glasgow in 1930 and 1939 and 1947 (marriage, census and death).
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The John who served in WW2 from Mass definitely wasn't my John. He was in Glasgow in 1930 and 1939 and 1947 (marriage, census and death).
Yes, posted the details so he could be eliminated.
Now for this one-
Dwyer Tobin Cousins ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MJ1W-VK6
Possible WWI draft registration- John J. Tobin, 237 East 8th St. N.Y., born 12 July 1892 Co. Waterford, clerk A & P. Grocery Co., brown eyes, black hair
Can't see him in WWI draft registration (which is good) but not yet found his arrival in U.S. to see details of nearest relative back home.
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There's John Tobin (parent's Patrick and Alice Flynn) born 1892 Waterford. DOB on civil register says 6 Aug but his baptism was 31 Jul so the date is probably off. And the Flynn mother might connect him to that Dwyer/Flynn cousins in the US.
http://ifhf.rootsireland.ie/view_detail.php?recordid=245374&type=bch&recordCentre=waterford&page=1
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Just wanted to update and thank everyone for their help on this problem.
My husband was granted his Irish Foreign Birth status on the basis of the Edmond Tobin/Margaret Maher birth certificate. I'm still not 100% sold that this is the right family, but it's the closest we've been able to find and the government asked no questions. So we're safe from Brexit for the mean time.
I'm still trying to trace the family so any new info appreciated.
Thanks again.