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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: amberly on Tuesday 16 August 16 17:32 BST (UK)
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When Catherine Lloyd married my rellie Richard Samuel in 1793 in Halkyn, Flints she was widowed. A witness at the marriage was an Edward Lloyd who could have been a son from her 1st marriage???
She died in Halkyn in 1833 aged 77 so was born around 1756.
I'd like to know her maiden name & have tried various ways to find it, to no avail. Any suggestions, please???
Thanks, Amberly.
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I think you can only look at marriages between a Mr Lloyd and Catherine in the years preceding the marriage to your relative. If Edmund was her son, he would be a bit young to be a witness.
I have found a marriage of Benjamin Lloyd esq of Holywell to Miss Catherine Potter otp on 6 Mar 1784 at northop by licence wit T.C.Potter and H E Lloyd. This looks like they were "gentry", would that fit with your rellie?
Another in Northop
John Lloyd widower of Es... in the vale of Clwyd married catherine Williams otp sp on 29 may 1790 by licence - wit Richard Roberts and Elizabeth Daniels
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Thanks for your reply Lizzie, but if Catherine was b 1756 or so, she could have married Mr Lloyd in 1776 when she was 20 & she's now marrying in 1793 so Edward could be 17, is that too young to have been a witness???
I'll now look up the 2 marriages that you've found & see what I think. Thanks very much.
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Thanks for your reply Lizzie, but if Catherine was b 1756 or so, she could have married Mr Lloyd in 1776 when she was 20 & she's now marrying in 1793 so Edward could be 17, is that too young to have been a witness???
I'll now look up the 2 marriages that you've found & see what I think. Thanks very much.
No 17 isn't too young, my grandmother was a witness at her father and stepmother's wedding when she was 16. I think it depends on who is conducting the ceremony and whether they are convinced that the witness understands their role and the seriousness of the ceremony.
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https://viewer.library.wales/553088#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=0
This may be worth checking out,
Benjamin Lloyd : will, 1789
Lloyd, Benjamin, Soughton, Northop, Flint, Esq.
Wife Catherine.
Mother ,
Sister Dorothea wife of Rev W Thomas Clough of Halkyn.
Sister Mary Elizabeth Potter wife of Rev John Conway Potter of Soughton.
Sister Susannah Lloyd of Mold.
No children named.
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Could this be the right Richard Samuel.
https://viewer.library.wales/414564#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=0
Will of Richard Samuel mine of Halkin. 1803.
Wife Catherine. Quite a few children named.
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http://www.clwydsurnames.org.uk/P.html
415 Northop Vol 6 Marriages 1754-1812 Burials 1750-1812
415A&B Northop: 14 Aug 1783 mar. by Lic. of Holland GRIFFITH ba. of Llanfaethlu ANG & Elizabeth POTTER sp. otp Wits: --- LLOYD, JC. POTTER
6 Mar 1784 mar. by Lic. of Benjamin LLOYD, Esq., ba. of Holywell & (Miss) Catherine POTTER sp. otp Wits: J. C. POTTER, H. E. LLOYD
Potter .
C Northop (burials): Catherine, Dorothea Catherina, Howel Lloyd, John Conway, Mary Elizabeth;
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Thanks Groom for your confirmation that aged 17 isn't too young to be a witness. I thought it wasn't but wasn't sure!
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Thanks Wilcoxon for all your interesting tidbits to look up. I had found this marriage & cast it aside as I think these people were too well educated for my rellie who was a lead/coal miner living in Moel Y Crio. When I looked at the marriage both bride & groom could write their own names & I looked back on some previous pages & J C Potter was obviously a clergy man as he had officiated at other marriages. However your will for Richard Samuel was the correct one & I do already have it. The children mentioned were his & Catherine's. He was a widower when he married Catherine & he had other children from his previous marriage to a Mary Joseph, but he didn't leave anything to them.
I'm really scratching my head as how to find out her maiden name because I do feel she was living around the area as their circumstances would not have allowed them to go far afield.
Anyway thanks for your help, everything is appreciated. Amberly
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=534241.0
I thought these names rang a bell.
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Hi Wilcoxon, I knew I knew your name too but had forgotten you had looked up Samuels for me before. I've done lots more but recently had my DNA done & have found a DNA rellie from B C & we're supposed to be 4th cousins & her Langford family also came from Treuddyn where my Griffiths family came from, however she's never done a FT & so is no help in suggesting how we may be related. So I've gone through my tree one generation at a time & realize it could be through Catherine but don't know who she was when she married a Lloyd. It's been very time consuming & I'm just about to give up because I'm at a loss as to who Catherine was.
Thanks very much once again for your help. Amberly
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Without knowing whether there were strict naming conventions adhered to at the time,I did wonder whether she may have re-married under her maiden name.There is a baptism of a Cath Lloyd with father "Edd" in 1757 in Halkyn and possible first marriages in 1776 and 1778,with a simliar variant(?) spelling to 1793 i.e. Catharine.Unfortunately,I can't find a death for such a first husband that would fit.
Regards
Roger
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If she was a widow, she would have married under that name, not her maiden name.
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Hi Groom,
She did marry under her married name. It's her maiden name I'm trying to find!!!!! Amberly
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Thanks Roger, I shall look at those too, however I don't believe there were strict laws as I have other rellies who married more than 2 even & their previous married names were always the ones used when they remarried. One took me a long time to find as I hadn't realized she'd married 2 before, anyway I sorted it out in the end.
I have however finally found a Richard Lloyd who married a Catherine Bradshaw in 1782 in Bagillt, both of the parish of Holywell with a witness named Robert Lloyd. Then I found possible parents named Robert & Mary from Caerfall which is near Cilcain/Northrop who had 2 sons named Richard b 1758 & Robert b 1755, as I'd wondered if Robert, the witness, could have been Richard's brother???
This could work, but now I can't find a Catherine Bradshaw.
Who said this FT research was easy??? Thanks for your interest & input Roger. Amberly.
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have you found baptisms of all the children mentioned in Richard Samuel's will? Could any of them be his step children? i.e Catherine and Mr Lloyd's children.
As far as I can make out in the will they are John, Margaret, Ann, William mentioned first in that order - order of age perhaps? Then Maria and Barbara come later.
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There is a Margaret Lloyd baptised in Halkyn on 25 jan 1776 d/o Humph and Cath Lloyd. The register has the names in heavier ink and possibly a different hand as if they've been corrected later and there wasn't enough space to write the full names. I can't find any other children born to this couple, at least not in Halkyn. There is a burial for a Humphry Lloyd in Halkyn on 05 Mar 1779, but no age mentioned. I can't find a marriage for a Humphrey and Catherine though.
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Hi again, Yes all those children were his from his 1st wife Mary Joseph & then the last 2 from CL. I've done all that & found who they married & where they died. None of them were Lloyds. Margaret was from his 1st wife.
Thanks for the idea & help.
Amberly