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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: xpress4 on Thursday 18 August 16 04:17 BST (UK)
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Hello!
Trying to find out who lived at 4 High St., Stockport, Cheshire in the 1861 Census. How do you find a specific address in a census?
Thank you for any assistance!
Brenda
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most High St addresses are retail shops - just googled High St Stockport and No3 is a Hairdressers - so I presume No 4 in 1861 was a retail shop ? or even possibly a Pub - do you have any idea whether it was a shop or pub ??
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On Findmypast you can just put in the street name and Stockport and Cheshire in appropriate boxes, there will be a lot of results for that street so need to try and find a number near 4 and scroll back and forth.
The numbers are very erratic though, not always following on as you would expect.
There is a 3 High Street Stockport next to 4 Coopers Brow
, look for Margaret Mock aged 50,
Alternatively if you have that address in a near census, sometimes looking up older neighbours can be useful although people did dmove around a lot.
Cathy
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Hi Brenda,
Do you have some document that says specifically that it's number 4 High St.
Coopers Brow which is between 3 and 5 High St are steps, still there today, leading down to Lower Hillgate and on the right hand side.
Albert Terrace is a passage leading off High St and is on the left hand side and the number after that, if I'm reading it correctly, is also 5 High St.
So is there a mistake somewhere, there can't be two no 5s on the same street ???
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There is no No. 4 High Street in the 1861 Census RG9 Piece 2563 Folio 84 Page 23.
Stan
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Hi Stan,
I think I'm being a bit dense this morning. ::)
I can see 4 Coopers Brow on those folio refs but not High Street ???
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Whoops,
Apologies Stan, I thought you had posted that there was a number 4
Must have read it wrong :o
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Looking at the descriptions of the Enumeration Districts, I can only see the "left-hand" side of High Street - go to 1861 Census RG9 Piece 2563 Folio 84 Page 23, and then look at page 1 which gives the boundaries.
I've looked at all the descriptions for Stockport First, and Stockport Second, but can't see anything for the "right-hand" side of High Street, which might indicate No: 4.
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Depending which way your looking at High Street, I'm starting at the end of
Higher Lower Hillgate and going up High St from there.
Albert Terrace is on the left hand side and Coopers Brow is on the right
Given that Coopers brow is between 3 and 5 then to my way of thinking 4 must be on the left.
I've also been looking at enumeration districts.
I think I found Albert Terrace in district 2, as I said before it's a passage off High St and the previous number is 5 High St.
Edited to Lower rather than Higher Hillgate
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So is there a mistake somewhere, there can't be two no 5s on the same street ???
5 high Street is at RG9 Piece 2563 Folio 84 Page 23, and also at RG9 Piece 2563 Folio 89 Page 2.
Stan
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Perhaps the Enumerator had visited Mr Robinson's Brewery too frequently :o :o :o
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Perhaps the Enumerator had visited Mr Robinson's Brewery too frequently :o :o :o
Very Strong possibility of that or perhaps The Royal Oak, also on High St. ;D ;D ;D
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1861 2563/85/25
Shows nos. 10 and 8 High Street and the last on the page is '- High Street'
Heywood
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http://tinyurl.com/gm9ulqf
Shows that in 1861, High Street, Stockport appears in folios 60-64, 69, 78-85 and 89-92.
A bit laborious, but you can search through the folios one by one using the census reference.
This website is helpful for searching street addresses in censuses from 1841 to 1891:
http://tinyurl.com/z2kmnqs
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St Petersgate Bridge which is at the top of High St and leading from St Petersgate into the market place wasn't built until 1868.
Before that High St wasn't clearly defined and ran into High Bank Side.
maybe that caused confusion with the numbering.
The address for the Edgerton Arms is given these days as St Petersgate but it was originally High Street and one of the few still open today.
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1861 2563/85/25
Shows nos. 10 and 8 High Street and the last on the page is '- High Street'
Heywood
1851 2156/588/32
After no. 6 High Street shows '2 houses unoccupied'
Next entries are Lower Hillgate.
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I can't see it on the 1871 census,
Perhaps we need Brenda to come back and gives us a bit more info. ???
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Wow! Thanks to you all for the replies! What I have is a death certificate for a Fenton Moore. Per the certificate his home address and place of death was 4 High Street Stockport in 1865. Perhaps they made a mistake on the certificate. Very frustrating. On the certificate, they also list the county as Chester instead of Cheshire but district as Stockport (first) so maybe a mistake on the street address isn't too hard to imagine.
The other family members I'm searching are listed at Benison's court on the census which apparently close to High St. as it is also listed on their census records on the same page. Trying to find the relationship between the parties. Can't locate Benison's Court anywhere either so that makes two mystery locations for me now! Is there an online map you all are seeing that I could reference?
Again thanks so much for all the replies!
Brenda
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The "County of Chester" is the same thing as Cheshire!
Just an older, more quaint, way of saying the same thing. ;D
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The other family members I'm searching are listed at Benison's court on the census which apparently close to High St. as it is also listed on their census records on the same page.
Benisons Court was between 72 & 74 High Street.
Stan
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If the High Street numbers have not changed then Benisons Court was where the marker is on this map https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/389534/390440/13/100494 It looks as though it is named but without a subscription to zoom in further it is not clear.
Stan
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The "County of Chester" is the same thing as Cheshire!
Just an older, more quaint, way of saying the same thing. ;D
See "A History of the County of Chester" published 1980
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/search/series/vch--ches
Stan
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Alan Godfrey has an 1897 map of Stockport - http://www.alangodfreymaps.co.uk/ch1015.htm which will cover the area of High Street.
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High Street was made wider around 1900 and I suspect, but not certain, that the houses may have been renumbered at that time. If you go to the Stockport Image Archive, on the second page is a photo taken in 1901 of Swains Boots that is no 2 the little bit of building just behind it is no 4 and it's directly opposite the Royal Oak Pub [now closed]
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i86/
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Comparing the maps of different dates at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/ there does not appear to have been any change in the Benisons Court part of High Street.
Stan
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High Street was made wider around 1900 and I suspect, but not certain, that the houses may have been renumbered at that time. If you go to the Stockport Image Archive, on the second page is a photo taken in 1901 of Swains Boots that is no 2 the little bit of building just behind it is no 4 and it's directly opposite the Royal Oak Pub [now closed]
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i86/
You can see The Royal Oak, at the south end of High Street on the 1895 map at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/389732/390326/13/101236
Stan
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Yes can see it.
I think that the solid line at the beginning of High St are the railings that separate High St from Lower Hillgate and then numbers starting at 2 up to 12.
The bit after that has to be Coopers Brow steps which lead down to Lower Hillgate .
I'll have a look at the maps next time I'm at the Heritage Centre and I may even have a walk up High Street. ;D
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Thanks to you all! Learning a lot. Since I can't precisely pin them down. Maybe I'll see if I can locate some directories of that period that might provide addresses and if or if not they are located there. I am at a real disadvantage being in the states! Wish I could spend some time in the local heritage center and libraries!
Again, thanks to all. What a wonderful community!
Brenda
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Hi Brenda,
It could be an error. I am not sure if you are just trying to clarify and place the address on the death certificate or something else.
1861 numbering of Benisons Court shows 1; 2a; 2; 5; 3; 9 in that order.
Anthony Moore and family are at 3 and the following house - number 9 shows 'Seaton' Moore who I presume is Fenton.
Did a family member report the death?
It may be that the main Street address was written rather than the Court.
As Stan wrote, these Benisons Court addresses lie between 72 and 74 High Street.
Regards
Heywood
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Cheshire Non conformist & Catholic registers (Burials)
Find My past has the image/transcription (in Latin) of the death of Fantum (sic) Moore, aged 80, died 23 July, buried 25 July 1865 - abode "Stockport".
A separate record (transcription only) records his burial at "Stockport, Municipal Cemetery"
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Thanks.
The age is different - if it is the same man 51 yrs in 1861 which is a big jump to the death age but on the other hand if age didn't matter too much...
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Had a 2nd look at the original image - pretty sure age is "80" not "50". Plenty of 8s and 5s on the same page - and the 5 is quite distinct in all cases.
"Fantum's" own entry has the year "1865" and no confusing the 8 or 5.
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http://maps.nls.uk/view/102340981http.
This 1872 map has a really good view of High St.
On the right hand side from the bottom are house numbers 2 and 4,
The first passage is Dumbvills Brow. The next one up is Coopers Brow so if Benisons Court was between 72 and 74 it must be around the next passageway up showing on the map.
St Petersgate Bridge as I said before was built 1868 so I think it would have made a difference to the layout. I do think we need to see an earlier map which I will try to find when I next go to the library. But at least this one may help to give a sense of where the two places were in relation to each other.
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I Wish I could spend some time in the local heritage center and libraries!
Brenda,
If I can help you in any way by looking things up in the library just shout out :)
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http://maps.nls.uk/view/102340981http.
St Petersgate Bridge as I said before was built 1868 so I think it would have made a difference to the layout. I do think we need to see an earlier map which I will try to find when I next go to the library. But at least this one may help to give a sense of where the two places were in relation to each other.
Whats wrong with the 1851 Town Plan at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/389658/390425/13/100103 and my reply #20
Stan
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Whats wrong with the 1851 Town Plan at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/389658/390425/13/100103 and my reply #20
Because as you indicted in your reply it's not very clear and unless you buy a sub you can't zoom in.
I agree it's not clear and it may be OK for everyone else but I myself would like to see a clearer map without having to pay for the privilege.
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Cheshire Non conformist & Catholic registers (Burials)
Find My past has the image/transcription (in Latin) of the death of Fantum (sic) Moore, aged 80, died 23 July, buried 25 July 1865 - abode "Stockport".
A separate record (transcription only) records his burial at "Stockport, Municipal Cemetery"
- That record is key! I believe Fenton who died in 1865 was my 5x Ggrandfather. Now to prove it!
- There is no record of a Fenton Moore that fits his age in the 1861 census. Could old and younger Fenton be the same man and appear different due to an error? It's maddening as this is truly the clue that will bring down my brick wall after all of these years!
Anthony Moore (his father's name is Fenton!) of 3 Benisons Court is my 4x Ggrandfather's brother.
Fenton Moore of 9 Benison's Court must be an uncle to Anthony I'm thinking.
My hope is that the old Fenton Moore, of 4 High St. (from death certificate) down the street from the both of them is Anthony's (and my 4x GGrandfather Denis') father because that will obviously determine that he's my 5G Ggrandfather and open up many doors!
Problem: No old Fenton on the 1861 Census, only younger one and Anthony.
Query: Is the Fenton from 9 Benison's Court AND Fenton who died in 1865 actually the same person with only a large discrepancy in recorded age?
This is the main reason I'm trying to place the addresses...to bring them together as a family group and not random neighbors.
The person listed on old Fenton's DC is Catherine (don't know if it is wife, daughter, etc.). Younger Fenton is living with his daughter Catherine in 1861 but there are Catherine's running all through the family so that doesn't really net me much.
Do you all have any suggestions? I don't know where else to search for clues. I can't find a death for younger Fenton either......
Again, so many thanks for all your wonderful feedback!
Brenda
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How have you determined Anthony's father is named "Fenton" - Scottish marriage possibly?
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The name 'F*nton Moore' is dotted around isn't it. Perhaps a family name through different lines of a family.
It is difficult to prove but to me it does look very likely that the 1861 and the death is the same person - an old man is old so determining an age might not matter.
1871 3665/9/14 has a Catherine Moore 55 yrs, born Queens County, boarding at the Kings Arms in Stockport.
If this is the same Catherine she has aged 24 yrs between censuses. :-\
You speculate that Fenton might be an uncle to Anthony but as his father is also Fenton that can't be right.
Heywood
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I was puzzling over the "Uncle" angle - didn't seem to fit. Hence the interest in the source of Anthony's father.
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Oh that was foolish of me. Of course that could not be Anthony's uncle! Don't know what I was thinking. Cousin maybe ::)
I got the name Fenton Moore as father on my 4x Ggrandfather Denis' marriage certificate (Fenton Moore, butcher). I got Anthony Moore being his brother on the 1851 Scotland Census when they were listed as such.
I just can't find any explanation to the Fenton confusion other than a sizable error somewhere. So I would think the more likely error would be on the census rather than the death certificate?
Although, if Fenton was indeed much older than the census says, he would have been 50 when his daughter Catherine was born. Possible I guess.
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Have you noticed that Fenton is classified as married on the 1861 census ???
A few years ago I helped someone who was researching one of Anthony Moores children, I can't remember many of the details but I seem to remember that Anthony and his wife Elizabeth Cummins had a son Fenton born in Scotland about 1857. He isn't on the 1861 census and I don't think we found a death cert for him. But we did think that he had been named after Anthony's father.
Again from memory didn't Anthony marry Elizabeth Cummins in 1849 and son Alexander was born 1850 yet on the 1851 Scotland census he wasn't with Elizabeth and I don't recollect that she was found.
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What a memory you have Rolnora! Yes, I have located a great deal about Anthony's family including children. I found Elizabeth with first born Alexander living with her family while Anthony was in Edinburgh. Never have found deaths for either Anthony or wife Elizabeth. The son you mention was actually named John Fenton Moore. He stayed local and died in 1922.
I did notice the marital status and have tried to look for his wife. Maybe she was visiting someone that day. But have no way of knowing what her name is.
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I think you will find that Anthony has disappeared by the time of the 1871 census but Elizabeth is on there still at Beninsons Court. Two of the boys John and Anthony have been placed in the ragged school.
I do remember searching for more info about them at the heritage centre, I couldn't find anything. In 1881 John is an officer at the Ragged School. Is this the John you mean I don't recollect him being John Fenton?
Elizabeth died 1879 in Stockport aged 52
And none of this helps with the 80 year old Fenton does it. ???
I'm at the library sometime next week and I will try to find out a bit more. With luck there may be an obituary for him
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That's the John. I found the birth record to Anthony and Elizabeth. Also, found his obituary where it was listed that way as well. I knew about the boys being in Ragged School. So sad, they must have had a time of it. Anthony moved to the U.S. with brother James right after Elizabeth's death. Son Alexander began working for the Ordnance Survey as were so many of the family members including my Denis Moore.
Yes, and then there's Fenton. I would be beyond grateful for your help when you visit next week. Many thanks!!
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Fingers crossed that I can find something that will help clear it up for you. ;)
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Oh that was foolish of me. Of course that could not be Anthony's uncle! Don't know what I was thinking. Cousin maybe ::)
I got the name Fenton Moore as father on my 4x Ggrandfather Denis' marriage certificate (Fenton Moore, butcher). I got Anthony Moore being his brother on the 1851 Scotland Census when they were listed as such.
do you have Anthony's marriage details - wondering how he describes his father.
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Is this Dennis in 1861 - reference RG09 24 76 20
Dennis Moore, age 48, Officer Service Department, born Ireland. Other members of family are wife Bridget and 7 children (inc a grandchild). The family is in Hammersmith, London.
If YES, am puzzled by the presence of Robert Moore, son, age 9, born Scotland - as transcribed by FindMyPast. However, the original looks more like "Flatan?" - certainly not Robert.
A Fenton Moore was baptised at St. Mary's Church, Edinburgh, on ? day of January, 1852, born 28 Dec 1851, lawful parents Denis Moore and Bridget Law. The baptism is a copy dated 18 Mar 1870 as part of providing Civil Service evidence of age.
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do you have Anthony's marriage details - wondering how he describes his father.
[/quote]
I do have the OPR record of their marriage in Scotland, but unfortunately no parents were listed. :-\
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Is this Dennis in 1861 - reference RG09 24 76 20
Dennis Moore, age 48, Officer Service Department, born Ireland. Other members of family are wife Bridget and 7 children (inc a grandchild). The family is in Hammersmith, London.
If YES, am puzzled by the presence of Robert Moore, son, age 9, born Scotland - as transcribed by FindMyPast. However, the original looks more like "Flatan?" - certainly not Robert.
A Fenton Moore was baptised at St. Mary's Church, Edinburgh, on ? day of January, 1852, born 28 Dec 1851, lawful parents Denis Moore and Bridget Law. The baptism is a copy dated 18 Mar 1870 as part of providing Civil Service evidence of age.
Yes, that's him in both records. :)
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do you have Anthony's marriage details - wondering how he describes his father.
I do have the OPR record of their marriage in Scotland, but unfortunately no parents were listed. :-\
[/quote]
Would the civil record show his parents?
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do you have Anthony's marriage details - wondering how he describes his father.
I do have the OPR record of their marriage in Scotland, but unfortunately no parents were listed. :-\
Would the civil record show his parents?
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They were married in 1849 pre civil registration unfortunately :(
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Hi Brenda,
I visited the Heritage Library yesterday. I couldn't find anything about a Fenton Moore in any of the directories. I checked every directory from 1858 up until 1865 and couldn't see a Fenton.
The service for his funeral was held at St Joseph's RC church which is on Tatton St not far from the address given on his death record.
I found his burial record at Stockport Borough Cemetery it was really hard to read the writing being very faint, but yes he was 80 when he died on the 23 July and was buried 25th July at 4pm.
I checked newspapers for an obituary but couldn't see anything.
There was a grave number on the record, D413, so with fingers firmly crossed I nipped into the office at the Borough Cemetery this morning in the hope of finding out a bit more.
Unfortunately the grave was what was known then as a "paupers grave" so nothing helpful there either.
None of it takes you any further forward with this mystery and I'm sorry about that. If you or anyone else reading this and can think of anything else that I could check please do let me know. ???
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rolnora you are an ANGEL! Thank you SO much for taking the time to help me. I'm sad too that Fenton didn't show himself. So sad to know he was in a pauper's grave. They certainly didn't seem to make out well.
After reading your note, I gave it much thought and I'm not giving up hope. I just can't get past the huge discrepancy in age between Fenton 1 and Fenton 2 to be an error. I just can't believe they are the same person. I'm still entertaining the idea that old Fenton came to England from Ireland late in life between 1861 and 1865 and young Fenton left after the census. If I don't believe that, I'll have to admit I've hit a wall a mile thick and after this many years that's too much to bear lol!
Again, my many thanks for your kindness! Should you need any help in California, I'm your girl! :) ;)
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Brenda,
Just to make things a little bit more confusing have you checked out Sophia Mary Moore,
Liverpool Catholic Baptisms
Sophia Mary Moore born 26 March 1847 baptised 6 June 1847 dau of Fenton and Mary Moore
In 1851 the family are still in Liverpool
Fenton 36 born Ireland Mary 40 also Ireland and Mary Sophia 4 Liverpool
HO107 Piece 2181 Folio 192; Page: 18
Sophia and her mother Mary are on the 1871Stockport census Mary is a widow ???
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB6B-Z2R
14 Nov 1871 Sophia marries John Tracy at St Michael's RC Church Stockport, father Phentom Moor
and in 1881 Sophia and John are living at 4 Benisons Court Stockport
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q272-4MG7
Haven't checked for the 1861 census yet.
Sophia has got to be connected and I would have said that the younger Fenton was her father.
But Mary a widow in 1871?
Totally flummoxed and have to leave it now, perhaps someone will have waved a magic wand by the time I come back. ;D ;D
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Good work, rolnora :)
There is this death but no age and I can't see a Catholic burial.
Fenton Moore December 1851 Liverpool vol 20 pg 397
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Possibility for Mary and Sophia in 1861 / 2938/ 8
56 Cumberland Street Manchester
Moris Baron 28 yrs b Waterford
Mary Baron 25 yrs b Queen's County
Margaret Baron 4 yrs b Manchester
Frances Higgens 20 yrs b Galway
Mary A King 13 yrs b Queen's County
Mary Moore 57 yrs b Dublin
Sophia Moore 14 yrs b Manchester
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Thanks Heywood,
Is it good work or have I just added another Fenton Moore to the mix, I'm not sure now. ???
Select deaths and burials have him as born 1807 and died 17 Oct 1851 aged 44 Liverpool.
I do think there is a connection just don't know how ::)
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There are Fenton Moores scattered around Ireland and England ::)
Part of me feels they are linked - cousins etc naming their children and so on. Then I read that Fenton/Fintan was very popular in Queens County.
I have seen certain first names which occur in particular counties more than others so it might be just that also.
I have tried to see if there is a connection between the 1861 Barons in Manchester who I suspect are not that at all - perhaps Byrne and I notice that there is a death for Mary A King soon after in Manchester too. I got no further!
You would think there is a connection though - name and place - but then again there were particular areas where the Irish would live and perhaps that is the reason the two women end up in Stockport.
Lastly, I know there is a great difference in ages between Fenton in Stockport and the death, but if Catherine is the same person, she aged considerably between 1861 and 1871.
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Yes your right, looking at the various census and knowing from my own Irish ancestors they mostly seemed to settle in clusters around the areas near to St Joseph's RC Church
Catherine is another loose end. Could it be that the 1861 census is really messed up and she is wife instead of daughter ???
But no, she's unmarried in 1871 isn't she?
Think I'm losing what bit of sanity I have left now. ;D ;D
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Okay now my head feels like it will explode! I have created a spreadsheet of Fentons and still chaos!
Maurice Baron and Mary Moore were married in Salford, Lancashire in 1855. Mary and Sophia were visiting them in 1861. One would think Mary Moore Baron is Mary's daughter. But Sophia's birth name is Mary Sophia. So how can that be?
It cannot be coincidence that Sophia Moore Tracy ended up at 4 Benison's Court. Can it??? We must be onto something.
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AND Mary Moore Baron was born in Queens County where there's Moore's are to have originated!
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Mary Moore's parents were Patrick and Catherine
13 Nov 1855 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire, England
Maurice Baron Hattons Court
Mary Moore Cook St.
Groom's Parents John Baron & Ellen of Dungarvon, Waterford
Bride's Parents Patrick Moore & Catherine of Salford
Witness: John Fitzsimons of Silk St Manchester and Ellen Lawler of Spinningfield, Manchester
From Lancsopc.
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk
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Thanks Rolnora! So many of the people in the area seem to come from Queen's County. That gives me some hope. I'll try to track down Patrick and Catherine and see if they can offer up some clues.
Thank you so very much! :)
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I thought I was onto something this morning but no such luck :'(
The 1861 census has a Catherine Moore c1809. married but husband not present.
Could this be Fenton's missing wife, no, this Catherine was Catherine Coffey/ McGough and she married Robert Moore in 1843. I can see him 1841 living with his future in-laws and 1851 married to Catherine. He was born Ireland c1812 I can't see him in 1871. Another dead end >:(
1861 census
RG 9 Piece 2568 Folio 73 Page 52
I don't want to add any more confusion to this or add any more Fenton's but do you know who the Fenton Moore b1831 and married to Catherine on this 1871 census is ??
RG10 Piece 4546 Folio 50 Page 16
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Is he the man in Leeds? I have looked into him and will have to go back to see what I thought. I keep thinking I will hold back as it is becoming so complicated. ::)
However, going back to Sophia Moore Tracey - in 1891 and 1901 she has two Moores living with her.
1901 3292/39/31
Sarah A Moores 51 yrs and Sarah J Moores 18 yrs both born in Stockport. I wonder who they are and if they will help or are just a coincidence.
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As we have found there are many Fenton Moores!
You have the 1851 census which shows Anthony as a brother of Dennis and Fenton as a nephew, I think.
Scottish records:
Births:
Fenton 1854 - Father Patrick, Edinburgh.
Fenton 1857- Parents Anthony and Elizabeth, Glasgow.
1852 Peebles Prison
Finton Moore 22 yrs Labourer b Mountrath
Then Leeds shows Fenton Moore born abt 1831 with wife Catherine b Ireland. 1871 shows mother Catherine b 'Air' (Ayr) Scotland.
Ireland births shows a Fintan Moore b 1830, Mountrath with parents James Moore and Kitty McCabe.
??? ??? ::)
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Is he the man in Leeds? I have looked into him and will have to go back to see what I thought. I keep thinking I will hold back as it is becoming so complicated.
He is the man in Leeds and yes it's getting more complicated, frustrating and unwieldy by the minute. :'( :'(
Yesterday I searched through all the Tracy baptisms in the vain hope that I would find a Moore that would connect them. Unlucky again but I think that I did see a Sarah Anna Moor as a godmother on one of them,
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Terence Tracy 4 April 1886 son of John Tracy and Sophia Moores
Godparents Francis Burns and Sarah Ann Moors.
Except to tell us that they are probably living with John and Sophia in 1886 it's no help at all >:(
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Think Sarah Ann and Sarah J are just coincidence
Sarah Jane/Joan was born 29 Nov 1882 baptised 17 Dec 1882
Father William Moores Mother Sarah Ann Ford. ::)
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Yes, I thought so too but they were living with her a long time so thought it best to check.
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I thought I was onto something this morning but no such luck :'(
The 1861 census has a Catherine Moore c1809. married but husband not present.
Could this be Fenton's missing wife, no, this Catherine was Catherine Coffey/ McGough and she married Robert Moore in 1843. I can see him 1841 living with his future in-laws and 1851 married to Catherine. He was born Ireland c1812 I can't see him in 1871. Another dead end >:(
1861 census
RG 9 Piece 2568 Folio 73 Page 52
I don't want to add any more confusion to this or add any more Fenton's but do you know who the Fenton Moore b1831 and married to Catherine on this 1871 census is ??
RG10 Piece 4546 Folio 50 Page 16
I've been watching this one and a few others. This one's father's name was James. Catherine has two maiden names on the marriage cert: Winn and Morton. Can't make any connection on this one.
A group I'm very keen on finding a connection with is Fenton Moore of Lymington, b. 1839,who died young. He married Mary Pavey. He was a surveyor like so many others in my line including my Denis Moore who worked on the Ordnance Survey for years. Father's name Patrick. Pretty sure his brother is a James Moore who married Jane Sothcott. He was a surveyor and father's name Patrick. Fenton Moore was witness at James and Jane's wedding. I believe Fenton was the nephew listed on Denis Moore's Edinburgh census of 1851.
The kicker is James and Jane Moore, in the 1871 census in Essex, have a lodger with them.....Anthony Moore. Age fits our missing Anthony from Stockport (although listed as unmarried). James Moore's birth location was Mountrath Ireland. This is where my Moore's are to be from but have never been able to firmly place them.
I think I need to find the boys' father Patrick Moore, pensioner. Seems like he could likely be a brother to my Denis Moore and son of the old man Fenton.
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As we have found there are many Fenton Moores!
You have the 1851 census which shows Anthony as a brother of Dennis and Fenton as a nephew, I think.
Scottish records:
Births:
Fenton 1854 - Father Patrick, Edinburgh.
Fenton 1857- Parents Anthony and Elizabeth, Glasgow.
1852 Peebles Prison
Finton Moore 22 yrs Labourer b Mountrath
Then Leeds shows Fenton Moore born abt 1831 with wife Catherine b Ireland. 1871 shows mother Catherine b 'Air' (Ayr) Scotland.
Ireland births shows a Fintan Moore b 1830, Mountrath with parents James Moore and Kitty McCabe.
??? ??? ::)
Fenton 1854 Died as an infant.
Fenton 1857 is the son of Anthony Moore & Elizabeth of Stockport.
The one in prison...wow! Another Fenton in Scotland I had not seen. Can't be the one living with Denis and Bridget obviously. That's a curious one!
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It could be if he was sentenced in 1852
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Just located a Patrick Moore and wife Ann in the 1851 Yorkshire Census. He's listed as an Ordnance Messenger. My Denis was a Messenger for the Ordnance Survey.
Now I'm proposing all these men were brothers but Patrick's birth is 1788 though. Denis was about 1814 and Anthony about 1829. The gap is a bit wide!
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It could be if he was sentenced in 1852
Oh yes, right!
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Now I'm proposing all these men were brothers but Patrick's birth is 1788 though. Denis was about 1814 and Anthony about 1829. The gap is a bit wide!
I thought that the father of Denis was Fenton, do you mean that Patrick was Fenton's brother or have I got that wrong?
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Think this is possible for the family in 1841.
Patrick 50 Ireland. It has P" in the occupation column. Don't know what it means I can only think "Pensioner". ???
Ann 45, Sarah 10,William 20, Edward 15, Alexander 13,Mary 11 and Martha 2 all born Yorkshire.
HO107 Piece 122 Folio 40 page 20.
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Now I'm proposing all these men were brothers but Patrick's birth is 1788 though. Denis was about 1814 and Anthony about 1829. The gap is a bit wide!
I thought that the father of Denis was Fenton, do you mean that Patrick was Fenton's brother or have I got that wrong?
Sorry...all these Fenton's! ::) ;D
The father of Denis is a Fenton for sure. I'm thinking Fenton (c.1785) was also father of Patrick.
Patrick also had a son Fenton b. 1839 and another James b. mid 1830's.
Does that make sense?
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Think this is possible for the family in 1841.
Patrick 50 Ireland. It has P" in the occupation column. Don't know what it means I can only think "Pensioner". ???
Ann 45, Sarah 10,William 20, Edward 15, Alexander 13,Mary 11 and Martha 2 all born Yorkshire.
HO107 Piece 122 Folio 40 page 20.
That's the same family from 1851 for sure but I don't think they are who I thought they were. If Patrick had two boys (presumably James and Fenton surveyors) in the 1830's in Ireland. Sigh. Back to the drawing board!
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Oh dear, it seems to be one step forward and two steps back :'(
You might want to look at this website it's a free prison index for Scottish Prisons including Peebles.
Fenton is named as Finton 1852.
You could obtain the full record but you would have to pay to view it
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ic9/
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Oh dear, it seems to be one step forward and two steps back :'(
You might want to look at this website it's a free prison index for Scottish Prisons including Peebles.
Fenton is named as Finton 1852.
You could obtain the full record but you would have to pay to view it
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ic9/
Thanks rolnora :)
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Hi Brenda,
It's difficult to know where next to go with this.:(
I think that you mentioned in an earlier post that the family had originated in Mountrath,
Ancestry have Irish Catholic baptisms, marriages and deaths for Mountrath.
The baptisms start at 1823 through to 1867. I think they are complete but not too sure.
The National Library of Ireland also have registers for Montrath.
It could be worth searching them to see if you could find anything that may help pull them together.
It would be tedious and time consuming but I think worth while.
Having a quick look this morning I came across.
Roseann born 11 Nov 1827 dau of Fintan Moor and Ann Ford, godparents James Moor and Betty Flaherty, abode Cooke St.
I seem to remember that there was a Roseann cropped up in one of the census records we looked at?
9 Feb 1834 Fintan Moore of James Moore and Cath Fitzpatrick, godparents Dan. Delaney and Mary Grady.
12 May 1836 James Moore of James Moore and Cath Fitzpatrick, godparents Fintan Dunnerley and Mary Grady
Maybe they don't belong to you but it's a starting point and as they say "any port in a storm" ::)
http://www.nli.ie/en/parish-register.aspx
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rolnora,
I went through those the other day - but may have missed something - looking for Anthony born c1830 as 1851 Scotland. I think there is a gap between 1829 and 1831 ::)
I had previously looked as that is where I spotted the Fenton born 1831 who may be your man from 1851 Scotland and later Leeds.
Looking at those baptisms, it can be seen that Finton is a name in that area but I did notice the absence of Anthony as a chosen name ???
Heywood
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I think the baptism address is Coote Street rather than Cooke Street.
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Hi Brenda,
Following on from rolnora's reference to the Catholic records. I did see on an old thread that you thought your family were Episcopalian and all the records we have referred to are Catholic.
Perhaps they changed belief later?
Looking at 1851 census, there is a gap between Maryann and Rose which is unusual but there may be baby deaths etc to account for that.
However, have you searched the Mountrath records for a marriage for Dennis and Bridget Law or a birth for Maryann? I have looked in the indexes but can't see one.
If I recall, Church of Ireland records are not as accessible, if at all.
It just seems odd that there is no trace there.
Heywood
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Thanks Heywood and Rolnora for having stuck in here with me and all you share.. it's wonderful and so much appreciated. Feel free to step down at any time but for now I'm giving you some more :)
I have painstakingly searched the parish records and came out the same. However, here's some additional info regarding the early Ireland period. I too was looking at that gap!
Since Denis began in the Ordnance Survey in 1836/37 per his retirement records, I found a list of the movement through Ireland in that period. The following records coincide with their presence in that town/parish
Possible
March 12, 1836: Birth of Mary Magdalan Moore to Denis Moore and Bridget La(y), Mountrath
Definite
April 25, 1839: Birth of Mary Ann Moore to Denis Moore and Bridget Law, Instiogue Parish, Kilkenny
Possible
July 26, 1841: Birth of Winifred Moore to Denis Moore & Bridget Law (or Lane), Kinsale, Cork & Ross
Possible
September 24, 1843: Birth of James Moore to Denis Moore & Bridget Law, Oldham, Lancashire
(The OS was in Lancashire at this time. As a matter of fact, my other line Sandford were from Ireland, in the survey and were in Lancashire at that time which was neat to learn. Surely the two 4X GGrandfathers working the survey knew each other!)
by 1845 they were in Scotland where they stayed for at least 13 years until they moved to England. These surveyors made genealogy a challenge!
All but Mary Ann 1839, would have died young not to be included int he 1851 Edinburgh Census. But these births would have accounted for the gaps. I have not been able to find related deaths.
As for Bridget Law....I think the census taker in Edinburgh might have been sloppy truly. I don't think Bridget Law was from Queens County as I can find no Laws there at all. Like Heywood I could find no Anthony Moore in Queens County either. Maybe he wasn't Denis' brother at all with Denis b. about 1814 and Anthony b. about 1830 but surely related.
Last note: Heywood, that old post is because my Nana, the inspiration for this search, told me before she died they were Episcopalian. But that was the recent generations and she had no idea about anything past her grandparents. All she new was the place of origin and said constantly "remember, you're a Moore of Mountrath!" and that began this quest ;D
xxx
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You have worked hard!
I notice that the address for the 1836 baptism is Coot/e Street which is a main street so perhaps no significance.
I can't see a corresponding birth (or death) for James Moore in 1843 :-\
Are there no records for Ordnance Survey employees? It is a pity if there are none.
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You have worked hard!
I notice that the address for the 1836 baptism is Coot/e Street which is a main street so perhaps no significance.
I can't see a corresponding birth (or death) for James Moore in 1843 :-\
Are there no records for Ordnance Survey employees? It is a pity if there are none.
Thanks! Sure feels that way. Labor of love I guess ;)
A lot of Moore's were on Coote St. Couldn't have been that big back then. Wish there was a house number. :(
There are some staff record for the OS at the National Archives but I'd have to search in person. Your message gave me the idea to contact the National Library in Ireland to see if they have anything like that. Who knows! ;)
Heywood, short of winning the lottery making my way to Ireland. I can only hope before I die some magical document is published on the internet that will knock down these brick walls ;D
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Just looked at a couple of directories - no Moores mentioned :( It would be good to place them on Coote Street or in Mountrath at the time.
Mountrath reads as quite a prosperous town - although as many other places, the population diminished considerably between 1841 and 1851.
I suppose that advertising - Ancestry etc - and the Internet lulls us into thinking that we can solve all our difficulties but as we find it is not that easy to make connections.
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Just looked at a couple of directories - no Moores mentioned :( It would be good to place them on Coote Street or in Mountrath at the time.
Mountrath reads as quite a prosperous town - although as many other places, the population diminished considerably between 1841 and 1851.
I suppose that advertising - Ancestry etc - and the Internet lulls us into thinking that we can solve all our difficulties but as we find it is not that easy to make connections.
Thanks for giving it a try Heywood. I think you're right about the advertising! Not giving up though...not yet! :)
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Far from "stepping down" I think that this Moore's family are going to be with me for ever now ;D ;D
I've been reading through all of your posts and it seems that over time you have covered as much ground as you could and I don't want to keep repeating stuff that you already have. ;)
When I was trying to help someone a few years ago we came to the conclusion that Anthony had gone off to the states, perhaps with the intention of sending for Elizabeth and the rest of the family and that the boys had followed him there after the death of Elizabeth.
Have you tried to find him anywhere other than in England?
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According to Stockport Borough Cemetery records,
Elizabeth Moor of Gladstone Terrace, Shaw Heath died 5 Oct 1879 aged 52 years, Grave No B432
For some unexplained reason I'm not convinced that this is your Elizabeth Moore. ???
I didn't have time to delve into it yesterday but will do more when I can.
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Far from "stepping down" I think that this Moore's family are going to be with me for ever now ;D ;D
I've been reading through all of your posts and it seems that over time you have covered as much ground as you could and I don't want to keep repeating stuff that you already have. ;)
When I was trying to help someone a few years ago we came to the conclusion that Anthony had gone off to the states, perhaps with the intention of sending for Elizabeth and the rest of the family and that the boys had followed him there after the death of Elizabeth.
Have you tried to find him anywhere other than in England?
That's what I like to hear! ;D I've been digging and digging to try to find signs of Anthony somewhere else but cannot. His two boys end up in Fall River, Massachusetts. They went over in 1880 and in the 1880 census are living with James Moore and his family. So thought I was onto something! I've now done hours of digging on that family and found they were from Ireland but living in Lancashire prior to their move to the states. James Moore's father was John. A relative no doubt, but not what I was hoping for!
We know Anthony didn't fall of the earth and must have gone somewhere. Can't help thinking he's the one living with James and Jane Moore in the 1871 census as a surveyor but can't be sure. Nonetheless, no sign other than that, if that is him. I know what you mean on Elizabeth. There's got to be more to that story. Always thought he was a rogue who left his family but I like your version much better ;D Thanks for hanging in there with me! :)