RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Pembrokeshire => Topic started by: Gavin Phillips on Monday 22 August 16 22:35 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am new here and hoping for some guidance, I am researching my surname "Phillips" and have been able to trace back to a Thomas Phillips (b. 1796), I believe he was born in the Parish of St Nicholas (nr Fishguard). So far I think I know that his son's name was William Phillips (my 3rd Great Grandfather) who was also born in the Parish of St Nicholas around 1826. I am struggling to find out Thomas's Wife's name (Williams Mother). I am also struggling to find any further information on Thomas Phillips. I know that Thomas is the father of William as I have a copy of William marriage certificate (he marries an Ann Davies, also from the Parish of St Nicholas). Is there anyone else researching the Phillips family of St Nicholas or anyone else who has come across this name?
When did the Welsh adopt 'Surnames' as they are today, based on the year, could Thomas's father be Phillip ap 'a name'?
Thanks for any help,
Gavin
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https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Athomas~%20%2Bsurname%3Aphilips~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Afishguard~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1796-1797~could this be him and his wife
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Firstly,welcome to Rootschat
There are two records on FreeReg that look as if they could be linked
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i9y/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i9z/
Regards
Roger
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If I have the right parents there may be up to seven siblings based on the following:-
FreeReg records for
Eliza(1818),James(1820),Martha(1829),Ann(1832),Mary(1834)
and if this is the correct family on the 1841 census
HO107 1444 24 10 14
there appears to be a Thomas and Sarah as well,though I can't immediately see a baptism(prhaps post 1837 records).
From what you know,does any of this seem probable?
Regards
Roger
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The 1857 marriage of William to Ann Davies has a William Bowen as witness,which adds credence to the 1818 marriage being correct,and there is a likely(?) William Bowen on the same page as Thomas and Ann Phillip(s) in the 1861 census.
Regards
Roger
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This is perfect, thanks Roger :) . I did come across a Martha Phillips who was a sister to William, but I had not found anyone else. From your experience, is it normal for a surname such as Phillip to change around this time to Phillips?
As for Thomas Phillips (Phillip), is it unlikely to find is birth and parents on the internet? This probably requires a visit to the Records Office in Haverfordwest.
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I'm not sure there is a norm,but I'm certainly not surprised at such a change.It may be possible to find further evidence of Thomas,but I would say there is an increasing possibility of patronymics coming into play with this earlier generation making things much more difficult.Given the form of the name I did wonder if it was still the case with William,though the evidence appears to be cumulating that the analysis is correct so far,but I would never say it is cast iron.
I'll see what can find.
Regards
Roger
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At The National Library of Wales(NLW) there is an 1847 will of an Owen Bowen of Tregeddylan,Saint Nicholas,which specifically mentions Anne Phillips(note final "s"),wife of Thomas Phillips.I haven't looked at the detail to see if I can work out a relationship,I have to go out shortly.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ia4/
Regards
Roger
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There are two other wills for the same location,a probable married couple,who combined with death records are Owen Bowen(1757-1837) and his wife Martha(1766-1846).John Bowen(circa 1801) is a beneficiary of Martha's will and is in residence in 1851 with wife Dinah(HO107 2480 13 19).
The suspicion is that John,Owen (jnr) and Ann are siblings.
Interestingly the next entry in the burials register to Owen Bowen(snr) is for a William Phillips (c.1754-1838) of Saint Nicholas.A reasonable candidate for Thomas' father?Again,I will see what I can find unless you would prefer to search yourself.
Regards
Roger
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Thank you so much for your help Roger, I felt like I hit a brick wall so please if you can dig further, I'd be interested to find out what you can find.
William Phillips (b. 1754) could be the father of Thomas. From a young age I have always been told by my father and grandfather that the name 'William' has been passed down through my paternal line. My middle name is William too, like my father. Whether this helps, I'm not sure.
Thanks
Gavin
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You may already know,but the family have a number of non conformist baptisms registered at Rhosycaerau.The records for baptisms at this locality start at 1775 and all the Phil*ip* variants are here(FamilySearch Batch Number C086871)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01iac/
Perhaps an analysis of when the first from Thomas family is registered might indicate a move to the location,as it is not obvious to me,as yet,that Thomas was from there.Perhaps it might be worth doing a search of this batch with Phil*ip as a Christian name.
Regards
Roger
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It is worth reading this about patronymics, also to note Familysearch has an arbitrary cut off of 1812
In their indexing of names
https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Wales_Names,_Personal
Mike
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Having undertaken the first half of the analysis I suggested,I found that all of Thomas's children from Elizabeth in 1818 to Mary in 1834 were there!Still looking for Thomas' birth/baptism.
Regards
Roger
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That's great Roger, I too have looked for Thomas and very difficult to find a record. I went to the Church in St Nicholas yesterday to hopefully find some leads. I found the grave of Owen Bowen (died 1837). I also found 2 graves with the surname Phillips, however, they were not names from my direct paternal line. I should add that it seems as though there were many gravestones missing from across the graveyard.
I hope to visit the Chapel at Rhos y Caerau soon but this won't be until at least after next week. Hopefully, I will find more Phillips there or even possibly some Phillip too.
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Can you please let me know the names which are not of your direct paternal line,so that I don't follow any false leads.I am trying a different angle at the moment,which I will post later-I hope it doesn't relate to the above.
Regards
Roger
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Yes sure, the 2 graves at the cemetery were John Phillips (died 29 May 1859 - age 25) and next to him was Mariah Phillips (died 17 Dec 1868 - age 70).
From my research, my direct paternal line is William Phillips (b. 1826) and his father Thomas.
I have also found this: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M78P-93J
However I am unsure about the transcribed birthplace - Carew - on looking at the same census on Ancestry I do not think that it says Carew.
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I think it probably says Pb Shire,Cairew-I can't make it into Rhosycaerau.
I wondered if there might be a sibling of Thomas,who might lead to a father and back to him.
The most likely candidate is a Martha Phillips with a marriage in 1816 to a David Devonald(or similar),with a Thomas Phillip as witness(brother and sister?/family name)
This couple can be traced in the censuses where Martha is given as born 1794-1796(consistent with a sibling),born Granston or St Nicholas.
Unfortunately I can't find any Granston baptisms(non-con or other).The nearest is for a Maria at Rhosycaerau in 1793,but the Mariah you have may be her if not married(?),a patronymic,born to a Phillip David and Ann(who both die 1826/27 at a place I can't trace-something like Maesygwnffrwd(?)
Regards
Roger
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Very interesting. I may have found the place name you question - Maes-y-gwmffurt - see the attachment (from http://maps.nls.uk/view/102187959).
I will need to take a visit to both Granston Church and Rhosycaerau Chapel to look at the gravestones. Thank you so much for your detailed research into this name for me. I very much appreciate your help. I may pay a bit more attention to Owen Bowen and see what I can found out about him and his family after him.
Thanks
Gavin
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Strangely enough there is a Thomas Phillip born to a David Philip and Ann registered at Newport Ebenezer(non conformist)in 1794.Seems too close in time(though baptisms not births)and geographically too distant(?).
Regards
Roger
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It is certainly a possibility.
By the way, you mentioned earlier that you are able to determine witnesses to the marriage of Martha Phillips. Forgive me if I am being naive, but where are you able to see this information - I was aware that to see the witnesses of a marriage required actually seeing or acquiring the marriage certificate - is this possible to do online?
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I had been looking in the Fishguard area,but there is a 1799 baptism of a Thomas Philips(as transcribed) in Carew,with parents William and Jane.I am convinced the original says Phelps,but this in itself could be an original mis transcription(?)
Regards
Roger
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I find a move from Carew to St Nicholas unlikely, it is a fair distance even by todays standards. Although I cant completely discount it until it is proven. I know from some research today that Thomas lived in a place called Gynon at his time of death. Gynon is a cottage in the Pwll Deri area, on the border of the parishes of St Nicholas and Llanwnda. I'm going to look through wills of the area to see if Thomas is mentioned. If that fails, I am going to shift focus to Owen Bowen and see how far back I can go on his family line.
Thanks
Gavin
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Yes,I found Gynon(Ginon) on the map,close to Tregyddulan.
Regards
Roger
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Hi
I am researching the Phillips family of St Nicholas. I believe Thomas Phillips born 1796 was my 3 x great grandfather.
Thomas had a son James born 1821 who was my 2 x great grandfather and then James had a son Thomas born 1885/6. I have order this Thomas's birth certificate today.
William Phillips born 1826 was my 3 x great uncle.
1885/86 Thomas Phillips had a son (also Thomas! ) in 1885. He was my grandfather. The family had moved to Aberdare by this time.
Re surnames: I have'nt found that surnames have changed with the generations in Pembrokeshire as much as maybe Glamorganshire. I am not sure why I thinks this. If I find out I will let you know.