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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: garngad on Monday 05 September 16 12:08 BST (UK)
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After the great help of my last post regards Edward Crawford WW1 I have been passed army papers regards his brother Charles Crawford (b 1882) the family thought he died during the 1st WW but it seems he died prior to 1914 in fact according to the papers in 1908 but I cant seems to locate a death certificate or cause of death I wonder if anyone could share some light the papers are out of focus and some details seem wrong ( birth date on one page seems to young) but the main details of enlisting fathers address are all correct though it seems as though he may have enlisted two or more times any help as always is very much a god send thank you in advance.
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Could he have died on an overseas posting? There are no deaths at the right time on Freebmd.
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Can I just say I have credits for Scotlands people but I just keep hitting the same names over and over I am not sure where he died but I think it most likely in Scotland and maybe while training and I am unsure whether the Army may with hold certificate's or not but it just states on the papers deceased which is vague unless he died outwith the camp on leave, thank you groom but I don't think he was posted I have attached one more paper if it helps.
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FindMyPast has the British Nationals Died Overseas (1818-2005) database.
There is an entry there for Charles Crawford, born 1884, died 1908, died at sea
Record Source is GRO Marine Death Indices (1903 to 1965)
You'll need credits to see any further details.
(Select A-Z of Record Sets, and type "Overseas")
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That's fantastic KGarrad I am most grateful a big sorry to groom looks like you could be right.
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Perhaps a local library offers free access to FindMyPast?
For just the one lookup, it's got to be worth a pop!
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thank you KGarrad but I have just popped a payasyougo with findmypast I am in the process of checking now will get back with results thank you again.
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Looks as though he was sailing on the Orcadian in Montevideo on the 27th nov 1908 as was posted drowned he was classed as a trimmer so I am away to look up the event can I once again thank all who looked and groom and your self KGarrad for your inputs it has been a slog cause I thought he died while serving mucho gracias as we say in Glasgow.
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SS Ormiston, built in 1893 for R & C Allan, Glasgow.
Sold 1898 to Allan Line and renamed SS Orcadian.
Sold 1914 to Donaldson Line, Glasgow. Renamed in 1915 as SS Polaria.
1916 purchased by Houlder, Middleton.
Wrecked off Alexandria 5th January 1918.
Ship Number 102644
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:) Thanks again KGarrad just came across that in my search nothing specific though on the incident it looks as though the ship was a cargo vessel and I think my ggg uncle Charles was a wee bit of fly guy as I think he may have took the kings shilling then hopped on the Orcadian where he met his doom.
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Can I ask how, apart from it being the same year of birth, are you certain it is the same man? Charles Crawford isn't an uncommon name. I'm not convinced, as if he was on a cargo ship, why would his army record record him as deceased? I would have thought he'd have been shown as deserted? Surely the fact it is recorded there means he died while in service?
Hopefully one of the knowledgeable people on this thread can clarify what would happen.
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I'll admit to being uneasy about the death I reported :-\
But, it does fit ;D
Although it's not a given - I mentioned it as a possibility.
I think garngad needs to find more evidence (from Allan Line Shipping?) re the Charles who died.
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I'll admit to being uneasy about the death I reported :-\
But, it does fit ;D
Although it's not a given - I mentioned it as a possibility.
I think garngad needs to find more evidence (from Allan Line Shipping?) re the Charles who died.
Definitely! I'm afraid it doesn't sound right to me.
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I to am perplexed but as I am unable to locate his death certificate ( I have looked at dozen's ) and as I know that he came from the dock area of Govan/Partick in Glasgow I am truly clutching at straws I cant understand either why the army papers declare him deceased and yet no cause of death and no certificate also what I can ascertain from his papers is that he signed up at least twice and I was wondering if this was due to lack of work and a way of obtaining monies and is he a full time soldier or as one snip on his papers suggest maybe part time although he has been reprimanded 1903 for breaking out of camp and also overstaying his pass on both accounts he only served 3 days detention so not to severe to suggest he was a deserter but he does disappear around 1908, so any suggestions to where I go from here. PS forgot to add that the Registar General entry has his last address correct but how do I find out the exact details is it just a report from the ship or would there be a full death certificate recorded.
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Yes. It seems a little too pat.
What we have is a death reported to the RGSS saying that "A" Charles Crawford, drowned at Montevideo. This is the only information that will be on a Death Certificate. Lot's of Merchant seamen do not have a Death Cert All that was required by law is that the Captain of a vessel when a person died at sea was to make an entry in the ships Logbook and inform the Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen who then in turn passed this information the the Registrar General of Births, Marriages and Deaths for England and Wales, Scotland, or Ireland.
The only way to find out if it is your man, is to consult the ships Crew Agreement. This should tell you the man's last address and possibly NOK, age and place of birth together with any previous vessels. It will also have his signature. The voyage where he met his demise commenced on 22/October/1908 and terminated on the 9/Feb/1909. So you will need to look at her first Crew Agreement for 1909. You can obtain for a fee, from here>
https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=102644
Her Logbook for this period is at TNA Kew. This may give a more expanded view of the circumstance's surrounding his demise but lets prove we have the right man before we go on that course.
A Trimmer worked with the Firemen in the ships boiler room, Trimming the lumps of coal so that they could be shovelled into the furnace, A very hard job, working in temperatures of sometime over 40 Degrees centigrade, 4 hours on, 4 hours off, 24-7
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Here is the entry ships name Orcadian place Montevideo (Uruguay) the date of 27th nov 1908 and his last known address also where all his family live and in the surrounding streets very close to the ship yards where his brothers also work. I just cant piece why he would be on it and if he was still a regular if he was a serving soldier on deployment would that not show on his records. Thanks seaweed for the info just as I posted sorry for that looked at the cost of the look up seems a wee bit steep for me but I am certain this is the one and only Charles Crawford there is to many add on's at the minute but if anyone can answer his army papers omission of cause of death that would be sufficient for me.
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So, are you saying that the address on there is where you know your Charles Crawford definitely lived? If so, it does seem likely he is your man.
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yes groom this is his next of kin address (his brother john my great grandfather)
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So, in spite of it being very odd, it must be him and someone must have informed the army of his death.
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Also just gone over one of his papers again and I think I am doing him a great injustice he surely looks like a regular on the evidence of the stamps on the right.
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He's not a regular - he's in the Reserves or Militia.
2 weeks annual training is (I think) all they had to do! ;D
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He's not a regular - he's in the Reserves or Militia.
2 weeks annual training is (I think) all they had to do! ;D
Which would explain why he was crew on a cargo boat!
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But he was a regular 2 week soldier a few years stamped there me thinks.
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Those are the stamps for his annual training.
No stamp = no pay!
A Regular soldier signed up for a number of years - not just 2 weeks here and there?! ;D
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But he was a regular 2 week soldier a few years stamped there me thinks.
Surely that equates to what was recently called "Territorial Army"
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Special Reserve one of the rubber stamps says.
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But he was a regular 2 week soldier a few years stamped there me thinks.
Surely that equates to what was recently called "Territorial Army"
Exactly!
For a better description, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_Kingdom)
which explains the links between Militia, Special Reserve and Territorial Force
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Rubber stamp says: "Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders - Special Reserve" in abbreviated form.
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So basically he is a reserve type soldier he does two weeks training every year and gets a couple of quid and a signing on fee the rest of the time he has to work as usual in the days of the poor house no national assistance etc he gets a job on a cargo ship to the Americas somehow drowns and the only record we prob have is in the Crew Agreement suggested by seaweed, they do seem to be the good auld days eh. We really do have it good today compared to them days can I thank everyone's input I really think that I have found out what happened to poor wee Charlie boy I don't think he has been forgotten even though there is no grave to mark just being mentioned on here is as good as a headstone for me anyways.
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If you are happy you have the right man. I will endeavour to look at the relevant Logbook.
I will be at Kew on Friday 16/Sept/2016.
"Drowning" is a catch all. Hopefully the Log will give us a little more info as to the circumstances of his demise.
No promises as I have a lot on but will do my best.
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Seaweed please don't think I am angling for a free ride I really appriciate your offer it was more the cost of 40 dollars plus then to find nothing or it leading to another search I really mean it when I say I think that I have found Charles and his demise we all know the cost of this constant searching of the sites the endless dead ends but I think private Charles Crawford is the one we have located and once again a big thank you to All who have contributed and looked at a wee peek of his life.
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Hi, I am a newbie to this forum but arrived at this post following a search on SS Orcadian. I too had a relative who drowned aboard this ship on 14 April 1908. Does anyone know what was going on and how the facts can be established? Despite being a Scot, his actual death record is not listed on ScotlandsPeople. The National Archive have scant information, but enough to identify the victim as who I am looking for. Any help would be appreciated. Stay safe, Michael
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Sincere apologies it has been 2 years since i visited this post illness and forgetfullness (sad to see that seaweed has passed away R.I.P. roger) thought I would post the result from the ship's crew agreement which clarified that it is indeed my Charles Crawford that died in Montevideo posting the result's here many thanks for all the help offered and given sorry to mjmalcolm as i am unable to give any more information for his search only to follow the advice that has been posted hope this helps.Ps if anyone could explain the comment next to where it says died regards wages as that is the only part I cant read correctly I would be grateful once again many thanks to all.
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garngad,
Just to clarify some of the comments in earlier postings, the Special Reserve was created in 1908 at the same time as the Territorial Force was created. It had been intended that all the members of the old Volunteer Regiments and the Militia would be enrolled in the new TF, but there was considerable opposition to the new terms of service, which meant that once the men of the TF were called out (embodied) they could be deployed overseas. Previously the Militia were solely intended for home defence. To cope with this resistance, the Special Reserve was created. It consisted of former Militiamen who agreed to be deployed overseas if necessary. This is why Charles Crawford was shown as having agreed to join the Special Reserve on 2 Aug 1908, just after its formation. He would have been paid a higher bounty than his former militia colleagues who opted to remain on their old terms of service.
More details here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Reserve)
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Superb Andy thanks for the info of course bk when i started the post I did realise that Charles was in the Militia and not the regular army it is documented that for I think four weeks a year you could sign up and be paid but still go and obtain regular work after when you could get it just like his papers seem to testify if Charles had survived he would have been a cert to join the regulars in WW1 his older brother by 2 yrs Edward was conscripted into the Labour coy and later his nephews who served in the 2nd WW I think his memory lives on in these wee posts as in the mists of time we had lost what had happened to him so thank you everyone who has contributed.